Almost the entirety of the new era of Dragon Ball is Fanfiction, but done by Toriyama

[MasenkoHA]

Wow I keep forgetting Videl became a science girl in GT. That's amazing.

BTW I love that moment where Videl didnt get angry at that pic, if only because usually in cliche liar revealed stories cheap forced drama would ensue and Videl not taking the bait was such a refreshing surprise. I know most Kanzenshuu users dont love rom coms or romance stories but I do a bit.

Well yeah getting angry would require Super!Videl to experience some type of human emotion other than "Happy homemaker"

I'm not saying she has to get angry and accuse Gohan of having an affair, but her not buying it would have way more impact if she still had her Saiyaman arc personality....or any personality

[BootyCheeksJohnson]

It's not fan fiction if the original author is in charge of the writing. Unless Toriyama was a fan of his own work.

[Dragon Ball Ireland]

I know most Kanzenshuu users dont love rom coms or romance stories but I do a bit.

Indeed they don't, says the romcom fanboy 🖐 .

[Cure Dragon 255]

Wow I keep forgetting Videl became a science girl in GT. That's amazing.

BTW I love that moment where Videl didnt get angry at that pic, if only because usually in cliche liar revealed stories cheap forced drama would ensue and Videl not taking the bait was such a refreshing surprise. I know most Kanzenshuu users dont love rom coms or romance stories but I do a bit.

Well yeah getting angry would require Super!Videl to experience some type of human emotion other than "Happy homemaker"

I'm not saying she has to get angry and accuse Gohan of having an affair, but her not buying it would have way more impact if she still had her Saiyaman arc personality....or any personality

Now I am thinking about Videl's old personality being trapped like Ren's when he got that helmet Stimpy made. And her breaking the helmet with a hammer to stop being a happy housewife.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Wog-z_Esnw4

[JulieYBM]

I know most Kanzenshuu users dont love rom coms or romance stories but I do a bit.

Indeed they don't, says the romcom fanboy 🖐 .

It really sucks, in large part because there's some good material out there, and as a connoisseur of fine arts, I wish more people were into them so that the quality could improve.

Boys! You can like guys punching each other in the face and romance at the same time!

(God, I wish JUMP editors would stop pushing/letting their writers write bad romance)

[Dragon Ball Ireland]

Don't want to derail this thread but I concur, even as a straight guy I can enjoy my romantic movies as much as I can enjoy all the crazy fights in Dragon Ball, I like different content for different reasons but will watch whatever I'm in the mood for.

Getting back to the topic at hand...

It's not fan fiction if the original author is in charge of the writing. Unless Toriyama was a fan of his own work.

Toriyama was not "in charge of the writing", he gave TOEI and Toyotaro some rough ideas for where to take the story, hence the anime and manga taking different directions. I don't think Toriyama realized how much he was pedestalized, he wrote a memo for Resurrection F that he didn't know would be used as a full blown screenplay. Apparently Daima was the project he was most deeply involved with, although again, from what he's said it sounds like he gave pointers and ended up steering the whole ship, though I wouldn't be surprised if that's because there was a lot of yes men he was answering to.

[Hugo Boss]

It's not fan fiction if the original author is in charge of the writing. Unless Toriyama was a fan of his own work.

Obviously it doesn’t fall into that category. The discussion is mostly about how inspired he was when penning the story and what influenced him and the final product.

[Cure Dragon 255]

It's not fan fiction if the original author is in charge of the writing. Unless Toriyama was a fan of his own work.

Obviously it doesn’t fall into that category. The discussion is mostly about how inspired he was when penning the story and what influenced him and the final product.

I know this is a free forum and that this is basically me doing thread ownership, but the intent was the context he wrote the latter DB stuff in, as in he was the creator and had an inner context he lost when he returned to DB and then had to reread the manga just to get the hang of it again.

[Hugo Boss]

It's not fan fiction if the original author is in charge of the writing. Unless Toriyama was a fan of his own work.

Obviously it doesn’t fall into that category. The discussion is mostly about how inspired he was when penning the story and what influenced him and the final product.

I know this is a free forum and that this is basically me doing thread ownership, but the intent was the context he wrote the latter DB stuff in, as in he was the creator and had an inner context he lost when he returned to DB and then had to reread the manga just to get the hang of it again.

That’s basically what I wrote with different words.

[Cure Dragon 255]

Obviously it doesn’t fall into that category. The discussion is mostly about how inspired he was when penning the story and what influenced him and the final product.

I know this is a free forum and that this is basically me doing thread ownership, but the intent was the context he wrote the latter DB stuff in, as in he was the creator and had an inner context he lost when he returned to DB and then had to reread the manga just to get the hang of it again.

That’s basically what I wrote with different words.

I wanted to object but you are right, that's it precisely.

[capsulecorp]

What a provocative thread! I understand the spirit of it, though.

I think there's a lot of good points here about AF and the plot issues with the anime but, to me, a lot of this comes down to character design. There are a lot of deeply uninspired characters in DBS, for example most of the cast of the TOP, those old timey looking dorks from the Granola arc, Goku Black, the list goes on and on. This was an issue in GT as well, of course, but there's not a lot of this in the original Dragon Ball. Even characters that we barely saw, like Baba's ghost, had so much care poured into them.

That said, there ARE a lot of great new characters introduced in DBS. Beerus and Whis, of course, who fit in so naturally that it feels like they've always been around. The re-imagined Broly and his buddies are great, Zeno and the Grand Priest and his attendants. There is a lot of fantastic work in Super, but unfortunately there's also a lot that's not at the level we might have hoped.

[tonysoprano300]

It's not a happy ending, but Trunks goes back to something close enough. I get it logically that it's not HIS exact timeline, but we don't see it and DB isn't the type of series to dwell on that sort of thing. It's not a fault in the storytelling, it's just not that deep. I think back to the story from the making of Back to the Future and Crispin Glover pointed out that the ending is sad when you think about it. Marty's family in the new timeline would have very different experiences and memories which Marty would have no knowledge of. He'd be faking it for the rest or his life. Either the director or writer pointed out that he heard him but it's not that kind of movie. I think that also applies here.

I guess the new era kind of reads like fanfic in that it has all the characters we know and love but it doesn't have quite the same feel or voice. I would say the same about GT, but that's not enough for me to consider it on the level of fanfiction. It's more like a show with a new showrunner. Every writer has a different voice and no one is going to pull off Toriyama no matter how hard they try.

When Future Trunks was introduced in the Cell arc, we became deeply antiquated with his world. We witnessed its history and we saw him fight for years trying to save it. The arc ultimately concludes with him using the knowledge he gained from the past to go back and protect his own timeline which finally restores peace for the first time in decades. Putting a bow on that storyline only for it to wiped out later.

I bring all that up to say that of course we are supposed to care about Trunks timeline, Trunks does not think its good enough to just live in a parallel world because if he did then not only would he have just travelled to another timeline to begin the Goku black arc but he would have travelled to a timeline where Future Gohan was still alive in the Cell arc.

Even in the Super anime, Trunks weeps when he enters the Time Machine for the last time and laments to the memory of his master Gohan that he couldn’t protect the world.

[Gapudo]

I don't understand how people hate Super Recolours but then praise SS4. It's literally the corniest and edgiest thing ever. It doesn't match Dragon Ball's tone

Dragon Ball's original tone died during King Piccolo saga

Edgy is not a bad word, maybe for you 12 year old of the Z generation. We adults call it "cool". SS4 is not the Mona Lisa, but it looks much better than a stupid pink recolor

[AliTheZombie13]

Dragon Ball tone discussions are silly. This franchise has been:

- A martial-arts comedy road movie (Pilaf)
- A martial-arts comedy (21st Budokai)
- A martial-arts road movie drama (Red Ribbon)
- A martial arts drama (22nd Budokai)
- A martial arts thriller road movie (King Piccolo)
- A martial arts thriller drama (23rd Budokai)
- A martial arts sci-fi drama (Saiyans, Freeza, Cell)
- A martial arts superhero comedy (Great Saiyaman)
- All of the above (Boo Saga)

Nobody cares if Dragon Ball is too edgy or too childish, people care if it's good.

[Dragon Ball Ireland]

Dragon Ball tone discussions are silly. This franchise has been:

- A martial-arts comedy road movie (Pilaf)
- A martial-arts comedy (21st Budokai)
- A martial-arts road movie drama (Red Ribbon)
- A martial arts drama (22nd Budokai)
- A martial arts thriller road movie (King Piccolo)
- A martial arts thriller drama (23rd Budokai)
- A martial arts sci-fi drama (Saiyans, Freeza, Cell)
- A martial arts superhero comedy (Great Saiyaman)
- All of the above (Boo Saga)

Nobody cares if Dragon Ball is too edgy or too childish, people care if it's good.

Yup, Dragon Ball has always been some variation of a martial arts story, it never "lost its tone", it just experimented with different styles. Toriyama wrote one story from Pilaf to Boo, which was consistent with what it was trying to be from beginning to end.

People will point to the Saiyan arc as when it became more sci-fi because scouters and spaceships were introduced, but there had been sci-fi elements introduced earlier like hoi poi capsules, Sgt. Metallic, Cyborg #8 and Cyborg Tao.

Now an argument could certainly be made the fights became a lot more over the top since the Piccolo arc but as Goku's goal always was and always will be to grow stronger that was probably inevitable. Apparently even Journey to the West gets really intense fights at a certain point.

[Gapudo]

King Piccolo saga is the first time Toriyama tried something dramatic

And it was good, but the comedy tone was already dead in the 80s

[SupremeKai25]

Even in the Super anime, Trunks weeps when he enters the Time Machine for the last time and laments to the memory of his master Gohan that he couldn’t protect the world.

Toei's penchant for the melodrama and nothing more. This never happens in the manga.

If you hadn't noticed already, Toei has a penchant for making everything more melodramatic and sappy than it actually is.

- Flashback to Black killing the family;

- Infinite Zamasu killing everyone;

- Future Trunks crying when he sees Gohan;

- Goku talking about fRiEnDsHiP to Jiren;

- The Tournament of Power being a test to see how "noble" mortals are.

None of this nonsense happens in the manga. I enjoy the DBS Anime, but it is clear that Toei unfortunately took a few notes from GT when making it.

Toriyama was not "in charge of the writing", he gave TOEI and Toyotaro some rough ideas for where to take the story, hence the anime and manga taking different directions. I don't think Toriyama realized how much he was pedestalized, he wrote a memo for Resurrection F that he didn't know would be used as a full blown screenplay. Apparently Daima was the project he was most deeply involved with, although again, from what he's said it sounds like he gave pointers and ended up steering the whole ship, though I wouldn't be surprised if that's because there was a lot of yes men he was answering to.

He didn't give "some rough ideas" for where to take the story, he gave them clear plot points, which are shared across both mediums. You don't see the Tournament of Power being won by two different characters. You don't see Goku achieving a form different from Ultra Instinct.

There is no evidence that Daima had more Toriyama involvement than the movies.

[MasenkoHA]

People will point to the Saiyan arc as when it became more sci-fi because scouters and spaceships were introduced, but there had been sci-fi elements introduced earlier like hoi poi capsules, Sgt. Metallic, Cyborg #8 and Cyborg Tao.
t.

And even then Goku dies and goes to the Buddhist version of the afterlife (the Saturday Morning Cartoon version of it anyways) and meets Great King Yama and goes to train in martial arts with a Lord of Worlds who is said to stand above all planetary Gods. Meanwhile his friends go to the heavens to train with earth's God, while his son is trained in martial arts by God's dark side known as the Great Demon King. All this to fight aliens who are using chi just like they are. Even with the later reveal that God and the Demon King are also aliens doesn't change this. Oh and there's still mystical orbs that summon a Dragon God that grants wishes that the bad guys wants

The eastern martial arts fantasy is very much there in the Saiyan arc, arguably even more so than, say, the Red Ribbon arc

[Majin Buu]

The eastern martial arts fantasy is very much there in the Saiyan arc, arguably even more so than, say, the Red Ribbon arc

The Saiyan arc is where the mystical and sci-fi elements feel the most balanced. Space and aliens are introduced, but the afterlife and a new deity is introduced as well.

The Freeza and Cell arcs are where the series became more heavily sci-fi oriented and the mystical stuff takes a back seat (it never went away entirely). The Saiyan arc feels more like a transition to that era than the start of it.

[Dragon Ball Ireland]

The Freeza and Cell arcs are where the series became more heavily sci-fi oriented and the mystical stuff takes a back seat (it never went away entirely). The Saiyan arc feels like a transition to that era in hindsight.

Maybe the Cell arc because that's when we are introduced to concepts I more traditionally associate with sci-fi, which is speculative science since it deals with time travel and asks what could happen if you mess with different timelines.

The Freeza arc, I'd argue is more space opera, which contains sci-fi elements but puts a greater focus on the fantasy, psychological and political elements of any given story within a space setting than the technological. Star Wars, Guardians of the Galaxy or the Honor Harrington series are space opera and not sci-fi for example and everything on Namek is more in line with that.