Vegeta: Inferiority Complex

[Dayspring]

Skinny Buu absorbs fat fixing the fusion and becoming Super Buu

But you're using a theory YOU came up with as "OMG I FOUND 00BER PR00F~~~~!!"
The point is that if there WAS a perfect form of Boo, it was RE-obtained when Kid Boo was reformed.

[Xyex]

So what, everyone Buu absorbed made him weaker then? We know for a fact that Dai Kaioshin made Buu weaker, and we know that when Skinny Buu came out he was pure evil. When Super Buu was created we know that Dai's weakening effect is cancled because of the fact that Super Buu is stronger. Therfore, Super Buu MUST be stronger than Kid Buu.

It's like saying that base Goku is stronger than Super Vegetto because Goku's the original.

And HOW THE HELL could SSJ3 Goku be stronger than SSJ3 Gotenks, or Mystic Gohan? Let alone Super Buu3. If Kid Buu was stronger than Super Buu3 why'd Super Buu3 say he was the strongest Majin? And why did Goku think that he and Vegeta would killed against Super Buu3 unless they fused but thought they could beat Kid Buu who, according to you, is even stronger? That defies ALL logic. Even DBZ logic.

[Deus ex Machina]

Arg, is the entire dragonball community under some kind of collective amnesia?!

Kid Boo is the strongest incarnation!!

It's said only a thousand times after his transformation. Super Boo is NOT stronger than Kid Boo, not his first form, not his last one after absorbing Gohan.

The Grand Kaioshin was present in all of Boo's forms (excluding Kid), which meant his influence severly reduced his powers, in every single form

I don't understand why it's such a difficult concept for people to accept that Super Boo was weaker than Kid Boo. And despite what everyone seems to think, Goku did not fight equally with Kid Boo at SSJ3. Try watching it again; Goku lasts awhile in that fight, but ends up beaten half to deah, uses up all of his ki, and Kid Boo doesn't have a scratch on him. Super Boo on the other hand is nearly killed by Vegetto effortlessly.

I know their's a lot of difference between the power of SSJ3 Goku and Vegetto, but it's obviously gone way out of perspective if you think that Boo was stronger than Kid Boo.

[Ryu]

He said, "Well, he really is beyond our means... It'll be tough, but... I want to fight with my own power alone. Sorry to do this at such a bad time... But, he can't fuse with anyone else either..."

I knew this looked familiar...

Oh don’t act so surprised, you’ve got yourself a very good website.

But the Daizenshuu are overly confusing in some situations, and flat out wrong in others. Sure, Toriyama had a hand in them, but I wouldn't be surprised if the man forgot what his wife looked like, so that doesn't make them completely accurate.

Thanks for the info, after a bit of research (thanks B-Kun) I've found that the Daizenshuu has some mistakes e.g. Kuririn age. Well I guess that proves me wrong about the Daizenshuu containing no errors.

No, no... Goku wasn't the only 'pushing' force. The Spirit Bomb itself was pushing as well, but Kid Buu was pushing back, and wining. All Goku did was add a little extra shove, enough to finally overcome Kid Buu. Almost the same concept as how Gohan's Kamehameha finally overtook Cell.

So the proof of the cumlative pushing force of the Spirit Bomb example is the Gohan v Cell Kamehameha? I thought Gohan won the battle because he was stronger. Gohan Kamehameha was weaker to start off with as stated by Piccolo ("...Gohan's Ki is weaker") and the only reason why Gohan didn't win right off the bat was because he didn't put all his power into it as he was worried about the earth as stated by Goku ("You haven't released all your power yet..."). In that battle Gohan was stronger, the Vegeta bit only bought time so Gohan could put all his power into the Kamehameha. I don't think I'm missing something but how does the Kamehameha duel aid you in your point. Is there another example of this pushing theory in respect to the Spirit Bomb?

Let me try to think this if the Spirit Bomb could push itself example. If that was true, then it's power could only come from the ki donated, so if that would mean as Buu was pushing it back that his power was greater. Sorry, but I can't really see it another way. I mean, with the Spirit Bomb I personally believe what the anime said, "If we can't power up Kakarrot, then we'll have to power up the Spirit Bomb" (not exact quote).

[Xyex]

Arg, is the entire dragonball community under some kind of collective amnesia?!

Kid Boo is the strongest incarnation!!

It's said only a thousand times after his transformation. Super Boo is NOT stronger than Kid Boo, not his first form, not his last one after absorbing Gohan.

The Grand Kaioshin was present in all of Boo's forms (excluding Kid), which meant his influence severly reduced his powers, in every single form

I don't understand why it's such a difficult concept for people to accept that Super Boo was weaker than Kid Boo. And despite what everyone seems to think, Goku did not fight equally with Kid Boo at SSJ3. Try watching it again; Goku lasts awhile in that fight, but ends up beaten half to deah, uses up all of his ki, and Kid Boo doesn't have a scratch on him. Super Boo on the other hand is nearly killed by Vegetto effortlessly.

I know their's a lot of difference between the power of SSJ3 Goku and Vegetto, but it's obviously gone way out of perspective if you think that Boo was stronger than Kid Boo.

Except that Goku said a few things. One, that he was holding back so Vegeta could have his shot against Kid Buu. Two, that if he hadn't held back he could have beaten Kid Buu without much trouble. And Three, that Superbuu (let alone Super Buu3) would have killed him without trouble.

[James R. Cadwell]

Let me try to think this if the Spirit Bomb could push itself example. If that was true, then it's power could only come from the ki donated, so if that would mean as Buu was pushing it back that his power was greater. Sorry, but I can't really see it another way. I mean, with the Spirit Bomb I personally believe what the anime said, "If we can't power up Kakarrot, then we'll have to power up the Spirit Bomb" (not exact quote).

Who says that Buu could move the Genki Dama as easily as Goku? IIRC, people with pure hearts can avoid being injured by that attack, so obviously the metaphysics of the technique make a distinction between evil people and good people. Ergo, it might be much easier for a good person to move the Genki Dama than an evil one.

Kid Boo is the strongest incarnation!!

Yeah, if you ignore all of the direct evidence in favor of a few lines of dialogue. Which would also mean that Gohan was the strongest fighter until just prior to Buu's release, Baata/Butter is the fastest in the universe, Freeza the most powerful, and that Vegeta was capable of defeating Perfect Cell, because he said so.

It's said only a thousand times after his transformation. Super Boo is NOT stronger than Kid Boo, not his first form, not his last one after absorbing Gohan.

Then it's demonstrated that he isn't, when Goku is able to avoid being immediately killed by fighting with him.

Seriously, this is a simple issue. We have several lines of dialogue indicating that Kid Buu is the strongest form of Buu. We also have several lines of dialogue in addition to tons of direct evidence showing that Goku would be killed easily by any form of Super Buu. So when Goku fights Kid Buu and does not get killed easily, we can conclude that he isn't as powerful as the previous three forms.

The Grand Kaioshin was present in all of Boo's forms (excluding Kid), which meant his influence severly reduced his powers, in every single form

We know that Fat Buu (and consequentially the Kaioshin) were influencing Super Buu because he was reluctant to harm Mr. Satan. Kid Buu was also reluctant to harm Mr. Satan. Therefore Fat Buu (and consequentially the Kaioshin) were still affecting Kid Buu until he expelled the good version. The fact that Fat Buu (+Kaioshin) was exerting some influence over the dominant form doesn't mean that there's a significant decrease in power. See?

Super Boo on the other hand is nearly killed by Vegetto effortlessly.

Nearly killed by Vegetto effortlessly, because Goku refused to fight any form of Super Buu. Goku explicitly said that he would be killed if he fought Super Buu. He also preferred to fuse permanently with Gohan and Vegeta rather than fight the forms of Buu which are supposedly weaker than him.

I know their's a lot of difference between the power of SSJ3 Goku and Vegetto, but it's obviously gone way out of perspective if you think that Boo was stronger than Kid Boo.

It's obviously gone way out of perspective if you think Kid Buu is faster than Baata/Butter or stronger than Freeza. After all, one is stated to be the fastest in the universe and the other is described as the strongest. Dialogue can never be contradicted by other events, right?

[Xyex]

No, no... Goku wasn't the only 'pushing' force. The Spirit Bomb itself was pushing as well, but Kid Buu was pushing back, and wining. All Goku did was add a little extra shove, enough to finally overcome Kid Buu. Almost the same concept as how Gohan's Kamehameha finally overtook Cell.

So the proof of the cumlative pushing force of the Spirit Bomb example is the Gohan v Cell Kamehameha? I thought Gohan won the battle because he was stronger. Gohan Kamehameha was weaker to start off with as stated by Piccolo ("...Gohan's Ki is weaker") and the only reason why Gohan didn't win right off the bat was because he didn't put all his power into it as he was worried about the earth as stated by Goku ("You haven't released all your power yet..."). In that battle Gohan was stronger, the Vegeta bit only bought time so Gohan could put all his power into the Kamehameha. I don't think I'm missing something but how does the Kamehameha duel aid you in your point. Is there another example of this pushing theory in respect to the Spirit Bomb?

Let me try to think this if the Spirit Bomb could push itself example. If that was true, then it's power could only come from the ki donated, so if that would mean as Buu was pushing it back that his power was greater. Sorry, but I can't really see it another way. I mean, with the Spirit Bomb I personally believe what the anime said, "If we can't power up Kakarrot, then we'll have to power up the Spirit Bomb" (not exact quote).

The G v. C kamehameha thing was a loose example. The genreal idea is, add more power to something, it goes faster. How about a real world example then? Alright, you're on a hill with a basketball trying to roll down beside you. There's a mouse in front of the ball trying to push it back. What happens when you add a little force to the ball? It pushes back against the mouse eaiser than it had on it's own. It's the same conecept with the Spirit Bomb.

[Dayspring]

So what, everyone Buu absorbed made him weaker then? We know for a fact that Dai Kaioshin made Buu weaker, and we know that when Skinny Buu came out he was pure evil. When Super Buu was created we know that Dai's weakening effect is cancled because of the fact that Super Buu is stronger. Therfore, Super Buu MUST be stronger than Kid Buu.

NO, we DON'T know that it was cancelled, just less influencial because the Boo being influenced is no longer the one that directly absorbed the Dai Kaioshin. Skinny Boo IS Super Boo! That's why when he absorbed Fat Boo he just didn't become Skinny with the strength of Fat before Fat expunged him. Since the Dai Kaioshin's power wasn't holding him back as much as it did Fat, he became "Super". But it STILL held him back! That's why he told Vegeta and Goku that he wouldn't be himself if they were to pull out Fat Boo. I know it doesn't follow logic as to why he didn't revert to Skinny, BUT IT'S NOT SUPPOSED TO!!!! That's why even Vegeta+Goku didn't understand why! If it doesn't make sense by their logic, why should it even TRY to make since by ours? It's like arguing that they can't fly because there's no direct evidence that relates to real world physics. You want evidence? Look at everything that happens and gets said!

And HOW THE HELL could SSJ3 Goku be stronger than SSJ3 Gotenks, or Mystic Gohan? Let alone Super Buu3. If Kid Buu was stronger than Super Buu3 why'd Super Buu3 say he was the strongest Majin? And why did Goku think that he and Vegeta would killed against Super Buu3 unless they fused but thought they could beat Kid Buu who, according to you, is even stronger?

Simple: The people that make up SSJ3 Gotenks are waaaaaaaaaay weaker than Goku. I know fusion has a shitload to do with it, but my Goku argument was that SSJ3-if-and-only-if he could attain all the energy he could in the afterlife was fighting, THEN he'd be strongest over everybody. Note that he needed a ton of time to accumulate it all (and then sadly found out that he couldn't). That was the reason why he fused w/Vegeta: he probably knew he'd never had enough time, ESPECIALLY with Gohan+Piccolo's brains in that form. When he fought Kid Boo, either he was too anxious to fight someone stronger, or he realized he might get that needed amount of time somehow.

[James R. Cadwell]

Simple: The people that make up SSJ3 Gotenks are waaaaaaaaaay weaker than Goku.

(1): Goku assumed that SSJ Gotenks would be capable of defeating Fat Buu. This means that Gotenks is much stronger than Goku at an equivalent stage of Super Saiya-jin. Consequentially, SSJ3 Gotenks should be stronger than SSJ3 Goku.

(2): Gotenks fought evenly with Super Buu. Goku said that same form of Buu would kill him.

(3): Goku could feel Gotenks's "ki" from the Kaioshin planet. Gohan and Kaioshin could only sense Goku's "ki" when he turned Super Saiya-jin 3.

Gotenks is stronger than Goku.

Note that he needed a ton of time to accumulate it all (and then sadly found out that he couldn't). That was the reason why he fused w/Vegeta: he probably knew he'd never had enough time, ESPECIALLY with Gohan+Piccolo's brains in that form.

He did have enough time. Nothing was stopping him from teleporting to a different planet so he could reach full power without distraction. Goku clearly wasn't strong enough to fight Super Buu (+Gohan) without fusing, no matter how much time he spent accumulating energy.

[Xyex]

NO, we DON'T know that it was cancelled, just less influencial because the Boo being influenced is no longer the one that directly absorbed the Dai Kaioshin. Skinny Boo IS Super Boo! That's why when he absorbed Fat Boo he just didn't become Skinny with the strength of Fat before Fat expunged him. Since the Dai Kaioshin's power wasn't holding him back as much as it did Fat, he became "Super". But it STILL held him back! That's why he told Vegeta and Goku that he wouldn't be himself if they were to pull out Fat Boo. I know it doesn't follow logic as to why he didn't revert to Skinny, BUT IT'S NOT SUPPOSED TO!!!! That's why even Vegeta+Goku didn't understand why! If it doesn't make sense by their logic, why should it even TRY to make since by ours? It's like arguing that they can't fly because there's no direct evidence that relates to real world physics.

We DON'T know that it wasn't either. What evidence do you have that Dai Kaioshin was still reducing Super Buu's power? We know that he had a mental influence since Super Buu wouldn't kill Hercule, but there's no evidence of ANY physical influence. When Super Buu said he 'woldn't be himself' he didn't mean he'd get stronger, hell, why wouldn't he want to? What he meant is he'd lose all his mental abilites, his personality would be completely gone, he'd be reduced to nothing but a killing machine again, unable to even talk.

And Super Buu becoming Kid Buu makes perfect sense. All the extra sources of power had been removed, all the people he'd been fused with were gone, so he became his normal self.

You want evidence? Look at everything that happens and gets said!

I am, that's why I'm debating this with you, because the evidence says the opposite of what you are.

Simple: The people that make up SSJ3 Gotenks are waaaaaaaaaay weaker than Goku. I know fusion has a shitload to do with it, but my Goku argument was that SSJ3-if-and-only-if he could attain all the energy he could in the afterlife was fighting, THEN he'd be strongest over everybody. Note that he needed a ton of time to accumulate it all (and then sadly found out that he couldn't). That was the reason why he fused w/Vegeta: he probably knew he'd never had enough time, ESPECIALLY with Gohan+Piccolo's brains in that form. When he fought Kid Boo, either he was too anxious to fight someone stronger, or he realized he might get that needed amount of time somehow.

Yeah, Goten and Trunks are weaker. But according to Goku Gotenks is more powerful than him. Plus Gotenks was able to tak on Super Buu while Goku couldn't. And the only time Goku tried to gather any energy for himself was while Vegeta was stalling Kid Buu. He's only doing that because he'd wasted so much fighitng him and not trying to win so that Vegeta could have a go.

And still, by your argument, FP SSJ3 Goku is stronger than FP Super Vegtto, which is impossible. Then there's the fact that Mystic Gohan is the strongest non-fused warrior in the entirety of DBZ.


Ummmmm... and wasn't it only the Dub (or just the Anime at least) that said the Kid Buu was the strongest? I thought I remember hearing before that the Manga said that Kid Buu was the most dangerous, not the strongest.

[Dayspring]

What evidence do you have that Dai Kaioshin was still reducing Super Buu's power? We know that he had a mental influence since Super Buu wouldn't kill Mr. Satan, but there's no evidence of ANY physical influence.

Skinny Boo is Super Boo before absorbing Fat. The influence Dai Kaioshin had was on Fat, who he absorbed. My point is that since Fat Boo was at his weakest, absorbing him didn't put Skinny to his greatest possible strength just because he now has a body fit for fighting.

When Super Buu said he 'woldn't be himself' he didn't mean he'd get stronger, hell, why wouldn't he want to?

I never said that. I meant that since Skinny IS Super Boo, he was stating that he wouldn't be himself in the sense that instead of going from Super back to Skinny (once Fat was ripped out of him), he would turn into something else altogether (we find out this is Kid).

And Super Buu becoming Kid Buu makes perfect sense. All the extra sources of power had been removed, all the people he'd been fused with were gone, so he became his normal self.

Then why didn't he go back to Skinny? What you're saying can't be backed up with proof either.

I am, that's why I'm debating this with you, because the evidence says the opposite of what you are.

Sorry: mixed you up w/Caldwell who always says "look at direct evidence only! I refute your evidence because it doesn't apply to our laws of physics!" Not that that excuses what I said, mind you, as then I'd be rude to him.

Yeah, Goten and Trunks are weaker. But according to Goku Gotenks is more powerful than him.

He did? When was this? I must be forgetting.

Plus Gotenks was able to tak on Super Buu while Goku couldn't.

Super Boo+Goku never fought in the manga. If they did fight, it's anime filler.

And the only time Goku tried to gather any energy for himself was while Vegeta was stalling Kid Buu.

That's my point as to why he fused with Vegeta. There's no way in hell that Super Boo (because of Piccolo+Gohan's intelligence having been added to his) would allow Goku to use that time. Kid Boo on the other hand, was an idiot content with kicking Vegeta's ass.

And still, by your argument, FP SSJ3 Goku is stronger than FP Super Vegtto, which is impossible.

Not at all was that the point of my argument! Just that Vegetto wasn't COMPLETELY needed (because Goku thought he'd be able to obtain the necessary energy in SSJ3) against Kid Boo, and because stupid Saiyan instint+pride kicked in and they broke the potara earrings.

Then there's the fact that Mystic Gohan is the strongest non-fused warrior in the entirety of DBZ.

Agreed. That's why I called it a plot hole that could ONLY be explained if FP SSJ3 Goku ended up being stronger. We end up never finding out since he can't become FPSSJ3 in the living world.

I thought I remember hearing before that the Manga said that Kid Buu was the most dangerous, not the strongest.

I'm 99% sure it's most powerful. But even if you're right about everything: how could a form that's the least smart, least strongest, least skilled, with a body least made for fighting be the MOST dangerous of the forms?

[Ryu]

I'm I the only one who thinks this, or is this starting to get out of hand?

He did have enough time. Nothing was stopping him from teleporting to a different planet so he could reach full power without distraction. Goku clearly wasn't strong enough to fight Super Buu (+Gohan) without fusing, no matter how much time he spent accumulating energy.

Don't you think that a bit unfair to use that argument? Against Super Buu 2 (Gotenks) he didn't have a minute, his son and the earth was about to be destroyed. Against Super Buu 3 he only had like 5 seconds. He couldn't power up inside Buu because Buu would have destroy the earth at any moment. Goku couldn't have teleport elsewhere as Buu might have gotten destroyed the entire planet. He can breath in space can't he? I think he would have regenerated (not as quick as Kid Buu), but if he can regenerate from what I think was smoke in the ROSAT, then I see no problem of him doing it in that situation.

(1): Goku assumed that SSJ Gotenks would be capable of defeating Fat Buu. This means that Gotenks is much stronger than Goku at an equivalent stage of Super Saiya-jin. Consequentially, SSJ3 Gotenks should be stronger than SSJ3 Goku.

(2): Gotenks fought evenly with Super Buu. Goku said that same form of Buu would kill him.

(3): Goku could feel Gotenks's "ki" from the Kaioshin planet. Gohan and Kaioshin could only sense Goku's "ki" when he turned Super Saiya-jin 3.

Gotenks is stronger than Goku.

1.) I admit I can't think of anything decent to say at the moment here.
2.) Didn't Goku also say that he could beat Super Buu when he finds a exit?
3.) What the difference? Feel and sense are basically the same thing. If they're not, could you explain it a bit more?

Ummmmm... and wasn't it only the Dub (or just the Anime at least) that said the Kid Buu was the strongest? I thought I remember hearing before that the Manga said that Kid Buu was the most dangerous, not the strongest.

According to TripleRach website it goes along the line of

Old Kaioushin-sama asks if that was the huge Buu from before. "Yes. ...The next one who was absorbed was the fat, but gentle and mild-mannered Daikaioushin-sama. ...The Majin Buu that Bibidi created was pure evil. He was a failure that Bibidi himself couldn't even handle, but once Daikaioushin-sama was absorbed, it seems he became able to control him." Old Kaioushin-sama gets that this is the original, very first, and most troublesome Buu. "Yes. ...He had gained a heart because of the absorptions, which got to the point that it reduced his power, and so now he has once again reverted to his original form. Absolutely without self-control and mind... An incarnation of evil itself..."

In other translations I've seen it also says the most dangerous. But I never really understood that. How can he be more dangerous than the other Buu's if he's inferior. Can anyone give me a reason why Kaioushin was afraid of Kid Buu, if he was inferior to Super Buu (the one Gotenks fought)?

From what I've been told by some people, dangerous here means not letting up or playing around and not giving your opponent a moment rest. But this Buu (Kid) messed about too much for my liking. He played about with Mr. Satan and didn't kill him with his punch (this was after coughing up the other Buu), the same with Mr. Buu. Also he gave time for Goku and Vegeta to discuss on what to do. Super Buu 2 (Gotenks) wouldn't even give time for Goku to fuse with Gohan.

This is the main reason why I believe that a full power ssj 3 Goku is the strongest,

After everyone has been wished back Goku guessing what Vegeta's plan is says "I know, You revived Gohan and Gotenks so they can help us fight Buu." Now Goku knew exactly what type of power it would take to destroy Buu and fully powered SSJ3 is stated to be able to kill him so why does Goku state it like both of them are needed if Gohan or Gotenks should be able to do it without the other? Answer, because he knew it would take a combined effort from both of them to beat kid buu. (If either could, he would have said or) Now to prove this is right, lets look at the Genkai Dama when Mystic Gohan, Piccolo, Goten, and Trunks plus the others donate their energy, it wasn't enough to beat Kid Buu, "Look here! This isn't enough to destroy Buu. What are they doing? Noone has lend us their Ki except for our friends." If Kid Buu was indeed weaker than Super Buu, even a portion of Gohan's energy should have been enough but it wasn't. Also you can't say Gohan withheld his Ki or that it drains a set amount because Goku says "Everyone donate as much energy as you can." The gang can control exactly how much Ki they can donate, Kaioushin gave so much he couldn't even teleport. Also further proof that the Genkai Dama is right is that instead of Gohan saying something like, "What are you doing? I have more than enough energy to beat Buu" when he hears about the Genkai Dama he says "A Genkai Dama, that's it!." This means to me he knew he didn't have the power to take out Kid Buu. Also if taking Gohan to the Kaioushin planet was better wouldn't have Piccolo blasted Vegeta for picking the Genki Dama over Gohan? Piccolo was quite the opposite.

[James R. Cadwell]

Super Boo+Goku never fought in the manga. If they did fight, it's anime filler.

Of course Goku never fought Super Buu. Goku said that Majin Buu would kill him if he did.

That's my point as to why he fused with Vegeta. There's no way in hell that Super Boo (because of Piccolo+Gohan's intelligence having been added to his) would allow Goku to use that time. Kid Boo on the other hand, was an idiot content with kicking Vegeta's ass.

You're ignoring the fact that Goku did have plenty of time to power up, since he could have easily teleported to a different location.

I'm 99% sure it's most powerful. But even if you're right about everything: how could a form that's the least smart, least strongest, least skilled, with a body least made for fighting be the MOST dangerous of the forms?

Captain Ginyu would have been more dangerous than Super Buu if his primary battle tactic was to immediately destroy whatever planet he's fighting on.

Don't you think that a bit unfair to use that argument? Against Super Buu 2 (Gotenks) he didn't have a minute, his son and the earth was about to be destroyed. Against Super Buu 3 he only had like 5 seconds.

Super Buu grants Goku five seconds to pick someone to fuse with after a fair amount of time passes between that point and his absorption of Gohan. Nothing was stopping Goku from teleporting to a different location during that period of time.

Goku couldn't have teleport elsewhere as Buu might have gotten destroyed the entire planet.

Yeah, so when Fat Buu was menacing Earth, Goku immediately killed him so he couldn't destroy the planet, right? No, he didn't -- Goku left the Earth completely unprotected and returned to the afterlife.

What the difference? Feel and sense are basically the same thing. If they're not, could you explain it a bit more?

Gohan and Kaioshin can't sense Goku until he transforms into Super Saiya-jin 3. Goku can sense normal and Super Saiya-jin Gotenks from the same location. Therefore, at the very least, SSJ Gotenks is roughly comparable to SSJ3 Goku.

In other translations I've seen it also says the most dangerous. But I never really understood that. How can he be more dangerous than the other Buu's if he's inferior. Can anyone give me a reason why Kaioushin was afraid of Kid Buu, if he was inferior to Super Buu (the one Gotenks fought)?

Kid Buu blew Earth up immediately. The other forms of Buu spent time killing off each person on Earth and shooting buildings. Presumably, Kid Buu's pattern of behavior was to quickly destroy planets, while the other forms of Buu took their time.

Stuff about Genki Dama and Gohan's energy.

While Goku is forming the Genki Dama, Vegeta decides to distract Majin Buu. Goku tells him that he doesn't have much energy available because he was just revived. Gohan was only recently revived when he donated energy to the Genki Dama.

(Note: This is based on the anime. I don't know if the manga says differently.)

A little more evidence:

http://www.dbzgtlegacy.com/manga/SS3Buu.jpg

Does this link work for you? It shows Fat Buu punching SSJ3 Goku in the face and sending him flying backwards. Super Buu was at least as powerful as Fat Buu and couldn't even touch Gohan.

[PsyLiam]

Whoops, wrong thread. Carry on people.

[Xyex]

Skinny Boo is Super Boo before absorbing Fat. The influence Dai Kaioshin had was on Fat, who he absorbed. My point is that since Fat Boo was at his weakest, absorbing him didn't put Skinny to his greatest possible strength just because he now has a body fit for fighting.

What evidence do you have that Skinny Buu is Super Buu? He absorbed (through eating him) Fat Buu and transformed into Super Buu just as Buu always does.

I never said that. I meant that since Skinny IS Super Boo, he was stating that he wouldn't be himself in the sense that instead of going from Super back to Skinny (once Fat was ripped out of him), he would turn into something else altogether (we find out this is Kid).

And Super Buu becoming Kid Buu makes perfect sense. All the extra sources of power had been removed, all the people he'd been fused with were gone, so he became his normal self.

Then why didn't he go back to Skinny? What you're saying can't be backed up with proof either.

Because Skinny isn't an actual form. Skiny was the evil that Buu pushed out of his body. It's the same concept as when Kami pushed out Piccolo. Skinny Buu was the evils of Buu and the Kai's (though I doubt the Kai's had much of it) while Fat was the good of the Kai's (and possibly a little of Buu?). Kid Buu is nothing but Buu. No extra stuff. Just straight up Buu.

He did? When was this? I must be forgetting. / Super Boo+Goku never fought in the manga. If they did fight, it's anime filler.

No, they never did fight. Goku wanted to avoid that because he wouldn't stand a chance. And I believe Goku mentioned Gotenks's strength while he was watching him and Super Buu fight after they broke out of the RoSaT.

That's my point as to why he fused with Vegeta. There's no way in hell that Super Boo (because of Piccolo+Gohan's intelligence having been added to his) would allow Goku to use that time. Kid Boo on the other hand, was an idiot content with kicking Vegeta's ass.

But you're forgetting, Goku was worn out then. He'd STARTED at full power, but because he'd not gone straight for the win he'd lost some of his power. He was trying to regain it, not reach it for the first time.

Not at all was that the point of my argument! Just that Vegetto wasn't COMPLETELY needed (because Goku thought he'd be able to obtain the necessary energy in SSJ3) against Kid Boo, and because stupid Saiyan instint+pride kicked in and they broke the potara earrings.

Goku knew he could beat Kid Buu, yes, because Kid Buu is weaker than the Super Buu forms. Hell, he'd only said he 'could probably' have beaten Fat Buu during their first fight if he'd not held back. So if he could only 'probably' beat Fat Buu, there's no way he'd be able to beat any form of Super Buu or anything stronger than Super Buu.

Agreed. That's why I called it a plot hole that could ONLY be explained if FP SSJ3 Goku ended up being stronger. We end up never finding out since he can't become FPSSJ3 in the living world.

He used his full power against Kid Buu, so he CAN become a FP SSJ3 while alive. He just wanted to give Vegeta a shot at him so he didn't try to win.

I'm 99% sure it's most powerful. But even if you're right about everything: how could a form that's the least smart, least strongest, least skilled, with a body least made for fighting be the MOST dangerous of the forms?

The Super Buu's were content with proving their strengths by beating up the other guy. Kid Buu prefered to destroy stuff. Unlike the Super Buu's who never used their full power Kid Buu never held back. Sure, he'd goof off now and then, but he never held back any power. And the danger can be seen in that he blew up the Earth + several other worlds and almost blew up the Grand Kai's world all because he felt like it.

After everyone has been wished back Goku guessing what Vegeta's plan is says "I know, You revived Gohan and Gotenks so they can help us fight Buu." Now Goku knew exactly what type of power it would take to destroy Buu and fully powered SSJ3 is stated to be able to kill him so why does Goku state it like both of them are needed if Gohan or Gotenks should be able to do it without the other? Answer, because he knew it would take a combined effort from both of them to beat kid buu. (If either could, he would have said or) Now to prove this is right, lets look at the Genkai Dama when Mystic Gohan, Piccolo, Goten, and Trunks plus the others donate their energy, it wasn't enough to beat Kid Buu, "Look here! This isn't enough to destroy Buu. What are they doing? Noone has lend us their Ki except for our friends." If Kid Buu was indeed weaker than Super Buu, even a portion of Gohan's energy should have been enough but it wasn't. Also you can't say Gohan withheld his Ki or that it drains a set amount because Goku says "Everyone donate as much energy as you can." The gang can control exactly how much Ki they can donate, Kaioushin gave so much he couldn't even teleport. Also further proof that the Genkai Dama is right is that instead of Gohan saying something like, "What are you doing? I have more than enough energy to beat Buu" when he hears about the Genkai Dama he says "A Genkai Dama, that's it!." This means to me he knew he didn't have the power to take out Kid Buu. Also if taking Gohan to the Kaioushin planet was better wouldn't have Piccolo blasted Vegeta for picking the Genki Dama over Gohan? Piccolo was quite the opposite.

The Spirit Bomb isn't your basic kind of KI attack either. It's 'pure' energy. Kid Buu was all evil. Kid Buu was also practically immortal. We saw that time and time again. He reformed from smoke, and a few times, from nothing. The only way to kill Buu is 1) Be MUCH stronger than him. Or 2) A Spirit Bomb that's able to destroy him completely.

IMHO Kid Buu is the only bad guy who needed to be hit with an attack that was probably 50+ times stronger than him to kill him. Anything else and he would still reform.

[oponok]

Vegeta's being an ultra bad-ass mostly comes from the fact he does about 70 percent of the cool things seen on the show. Yes, Goku beats Frieza, Nappa, and Recoome, and creates the spirit bomb to kill Kid Buu, but beyond that, he does very little. Vegeta, on the other hand, fights pretty much EVERY character, good or bad, in the show, while Goku's off somewhere eating, just being stupid, healing, or training. Also, Vegeta wins many more fights than Goku on average. While he does let many of the major villians attain their true power/form, those incidents would've happened anyway, with or without him. Face it: like him or not, the show would suck without him. Why?

1) It would just be Krillin and some other fools being chased around by the major, even many minor villians, until Goku or Piccolo did something about it. At any point in the series, Vegeta is still an imposing threat, in the thick of things, and/or an apparent last hope in SOMEWAY.

2) Most of the best fights/scenes feature him (Recoome v. Vegeta, Final Flash against Cell, Vegeta vs. 19, Vegeta vs. Goku I, Vegeta vs. Goku II, Vegeta blowing up the martial arts tournament arena (and pretty much anything he does in that episode), many scenes comprised of him yelling and powering up, the scene where he catches Imperfect Cell upside down and taunts him, the scene where he just won't stay down when fighting Kid Buu, he smacks Mr.Satan, his self-destruction against Buu, Vegetto, etc, etc.)

3) He called Goku Mr.Straight Fingers.

He's a bad-ass. You really can't take the abuse he does and NOT be a bad-ass. He's had holes blown through him repeatedly and trounced so many times, and yet he's still determined to be the best. It's a rough business being a Saiyan. Ain't not room f'r wusses.

Again, to all those who don't know, Vegeta DID know about the second stage of Ultimate Super Saiyan. You all forget that Trunks isn't as experienced as Vegeta, and therefore fails to figure out the flaws of such a power, unlike his father. This solves the problem of "how could they train in the same area and Vegeta never noticed that Trunks had surpassed him?" He didn't care. Trunks says in the MANGA and ANIME, "So that's why dad chose not to go this way. He knew that this would happen." It's there. Too many people seem to have missed this line, and it's become a popular notion that Trunks completely surpassed his father (even on this site...) when in reality, Vegeta just knew better.

About this Buu/Goku thing, I don't see what Burter and Frieza have to do with this. Burter said he was the strongest, but one could easily figure out that Frieza would be superior in speed and strength to all. It was just bragging on the Ginyu Forces part. It wasn't like Goku just fought Frieza before meeting the Ginyu force and suddenly claimed Burter was the fastest moron in the cosmos. Burter had never fought Goku, so he didn't know he was faster. However, Goku (in the anime, at least) fought Super Buu a little before fusing with Vegeta. Also, they likely recalled what had happened in the Vegetto state, so Goku would'be recalled, just how fast and strong Kid Buu was (and no, there's nothing that states that Kid Buu is stronger than Vegetto, and I doubt it's possible, since Vegetto could likely reach SSJ3, which he probably wouldn't even need to take care of him). Also, Goku and Vegeta show that they often have keen sensing abilities. Maybe then it's that he couldn't really grasp Kid Buu's potential. And perhaps Kid Buu, who really was just a maniac who pulled off random attacks, lacked Super Buu's apparent discipline and the absorbed knowledge and techniques of Piccolo, Gohan, and Gotenks, and therefore never was able to achieve full potential.

Frankly, this an unsolvable paradox. It truth, it's a really big plothole, but if we try to justify points of view with evidence form the series and manga, we get one nasty mess. It's too messed up a thing to fix.

Don't be ashamed, Dragonball fans. The Bible has tons of flaws and confusing contradictions, but it's treasured all over the world (I guess). Say what you want about Akira Toriyama. He may have invented everything as he went along, but that in no way lowers the quality. I know I couln't think of so many belovable characters on the spot, week after week after week after week. I'd suffer memory lapses and probably other mental disorders if I had to draw the same characters every day.

[Alias]

Except that Goku said a few things. One, that he was holding back so Vegeta could have his shot against Kid Buu. Two, that if he hadn't held back he could have beaten Kid Buu without much trouble. And Three, that Superbuu (let alone Super Buu3) would have killed him without trouble.

Actually, Goku wasn't holding back so that Vegeta could fight Kid Buu. In the manga, Vegeta deduced that Goku was trying to kill Kid Buu as quickly as possible because he knew that Vegeta would lose. Goku protested that it wasn't true, but Vegeta cut in that Goku didn't have to try and spare his feelings. Goku didn't want Vegeta to fight Kid Buu at any point and protested when Vegeta said he would buy time for Goku. Goku also never said that he was holding back against Kid Buu, he said that if he could defeat Kid Buu if he could reach the power he had in the afterlife. He just wasn't able to do that because his living body couldn't sustain that.

[James R. Cadwell]

Again, to all those who don't know, Vegeta DID know about the second stage of Ultimate Super Saiyan. You all forget that Trunks isn't as experienced as Vegeta, and therefore fails to figure out the flaws of such a power, unlike his father. This solves the problem of "how could they train in the same area and Vegeta never noticed that Trunks had surpassed him?" He didn't care. Trunks says in the MANGA and ANIME, "So that's why dad chose not to go this way. He knew that this would happen." It's there. Too many people seem to have missed this line, and it's become a popular notion that Trunks completely surpassed his father (even on this site...) when in reality, Vegeta just knew better.

Just as an added note: Vegeta was stronger than Trunks at the lower stages of Super Saiya-jin, so I'd assume he would have still been stronger had he used the bulkier, slower form. That being said, I'm not sure that he even bothered to learn that transformation. If he had, it seems like he would have used it to increase the strength of his "Final Flash" technique.

Frankly, this an unsolvable paradox. It truth, it's a really big plothole, but if we try to justify points of view with evidence form the series and manga, we get one nasty mess. It's too messed up a thing to fix.

It's a plothole, I agree. But the entire situation is easily resolvable in-universe, since enough evidence is provided to conclude that Super Buu is much, much stronger than Kid Buu.

Fat Buu punches Goku in the face and sends him flying. Super Buu can't even lay a hand on "Mystic" Gohan. Since Goku implies later in the series that Super Buu is considerably stronger than Fat Buu, Gohan would finish the latter off even faster than he defeated the former.

[oponok]

Goku was holding back a lot against Fat Buu. Goku says he KNOWS he could have beaten Fat Buu, he was just half-heartedly engaging him in something of a playful sparring match to buy as much time as he could. Had he utterly wasted him, Gotenks wouldn't have had the chance to fight him (he said he wanted him to have the chance to fight Buu, probably refering to Buu before he evolved into Super Buu). Goku never used SSJ3 against Super Buu, so we couldn't really know how well he'd do. Perhaps when he confessed he couldn't beat Super Buu, he just wanted the others to have a chance to fight him, as he claims before the Kid Buu fight, and maybe saved SSJ3 while around Vegeta until there was no other option so he wouldn't hurt the poor bastard's feelings. But this is a stretch, and I would honestly hope Gotenks and Gohan are stronger than Goku.

I like the idea that Kid Buu isn't strong as Super Buu. Narrative-wise, it pushes more urgency into the fusions and Gohan's power-up. It's just plain STUPID if Goku was the strongest, all along.

[PsyLiam]

Also, Vegeta wins many more fights than Goku on average.

I was going to talk about this, but I'll just start another thread rather that derail this one.