Stronger or weaker after absorbing South Kaioushin?

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Rocketman
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Post by Rocketman » Sun Feb 04, 2007 2:18 pm

Magneto wrote:And if you actually agreed with one of the posibilities .. why did you start this discussion ? You just wasted time . The whole point was to show that the statements Goku & Vegeta made when first seeing Kid Buu were innacurate , and since you agreed with this .. there was no point in discussing it .
The argument evolved into if Kid Buu is stronger than Super Buu. I agree they may ahve underestimated KB, but I don't agree than he's stronger than SB.
If Goku thinks he can win , he can . So it doesn`t matter if it was a "no choice" fight , if Goku insinuates that he will win , he would.
It doesn't show what Goku was thinking, only what he said. Goku was bluffing.
By saying that , I`ve just won . So Goku had no guarantee that once outside they would regain their normal size , so his statement inside of Buu was made because of their size .
No, it was made because they weren't fused.
What does Goku wanting to fuse with Mr Satan have to do with anything ? I`ve just asked you how would Goku be stronger than Vegeto if Kid Buu is stronger than Buu with Gohan , and you didn`t prove it . Vegeto could well be over 5 times stronger than Super Buu w/Gohan , and even if Kid Buu would be stronger than Super Buu w/Gohan I don`t see how it would make Goku stronger than Vegeto .
Goku says he can kill Kid Buu if he can use his full power as an SSJ3. If Kid Buu is stronger than SGhB, then why did he demand Vegeta fuse with him if he thought his SSJ3 power was stronger?
The whole purpose of using energy was to make Buu stronger . And since they stated that they can`t use it , it means that it can`t make Buu stronger . Nobody said anything about it not being able to make him weaker .
If they can't use it, it has no effect on him. If it has no effect on him, it can't make him weaker.

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Post by Magneto » Sun Feb 04, 2007 2:23 pm

The argument evolved into if Kid Buu is stronger than Super Buu. I agree they may ahve underestimated KB, but I don't agree than he's stronger than SB.
The whole argument involved if Kid Buu is stronger than Super Buu , but this particular point involved Goku & Vegeta`s statements when first seeing Kid Buu .
It doesn't show what Goku was thinking, only what he said. Goku was bluffing.
And bluffing would help him how ? It would be completly useless .
No, it was made because they weren't fused.
Again , a counter argument not being backed up at all . As I said , like this means current condition , and their current condition was smaller than a flea and unfused . His reaction once exiting Super Buu proves he didn`t expect to regain his original size , further sustaining my point .
Goku says he can kill Kid Buu if he can use his full power as an SSJ3. If Kid Buu is stronger than SGhB, then why did he demand Vegeta fuse with him if he thought his SSJ3 power was stronger?
I`m not here to debate if SSJ3 Goku is stronger than Super Buu w/Gohan since I don`t belive it . Why are you avoiding the subject ? Just say that you can`t prove it . Why would Goku be stronger than Vegeto if Kid Buu would be stronger than Super Buu w/Gohan ?
If they can't use it, it has no effect on him. If it has no effect on him, it can't make him weaker.
Who says it has no effect on him ? The whole purpose of collecting energy was to make Buu stronger and since it says that they can`t use Kaioshin energy it means it can`t make him stronger . It doesn`t say it has no effect on him .

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Post by Tyro » Sun Feb 04, 2007 2:59 pm

Rocketman wrote:
Tyro wrote:Actually, that point isn't a great one. When Boo first hatched Gohan also thought that as a SSj2 he could possibly stand a chance against him.
And Gohan is a fucking moron.
And there is a problem somewhere with Gohan as a SSj2 not being able to fight Majin Boo as his firrst level of power before any power-ups?

And Magneto, Vegeta stated later that Goku never planned on letting him fight in the first place. That throws out your whole "rock, paper, scissors" deal.

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Post by Neon Z » Sun Feb 04, 2007 3:57 pm

Elder Kai interrupted Kaioshin and asked if he turned into Fat Buu after absorbing South Kaioshin ? As a matter of fact no , he didn`t . He asked him if the buff form they saw earlier was the form Boo attained when he absorbed South Kaioshin , in which Kaioshin replied Yes .
I used a crappy fan translation for that statement, since it was more accessible than the alternatives, so you might be right about that quote...
Then he talked about how absorbing Dai Kaioshin brought Buu under control , and at this point Kaioshin was done in talking about Dai Kaioshin . And then Old Kaioshin makes the remark that this Boo is the most troublesome from the beginning , in which Kaioshin replies yes , and that his power decreased with absorption .
So...? That's exactly what I said. He makes the comment about absorption just after talking about the last absorption.
The word "absorption" doesn`t have a plural in the Japanese language , because it reffers to the concept of absorbing .
Most Japenese words have no plural, usually. There's nothing special about "absorption"'s lack of plural.

As a matter of fact , the energy was used directly to powerup Majin Boo . And what means are you talking about ? Every damage inflicted from one of Babidi`s henchemen to another person makes Buu recive that person`s energy (proven in the fight that Goku had against Majin Vegeta) , so if the energy can`t be used to powerup Buu it means none of the Kaioshins did .
And as a matter of fact it says about Kaioshin`s energy itself and Majin Buu . They say they can`t use Kaioshin`s energy to revive Buu . Get your facts straight .
Fact 1: Majin Buu itself isn't the one absorbing that energy, considering later battles show he has no way to absorb remote energy, he's only receiving it.

Fact 2: It's stated that they can't use Kaioshin's energy to revive Buu, nothing about the nature of Kaioshin's energy being incompatible with Buu.

Everything that means is that Kaioshin's energy can't be used by the method of remote collecting. It says nothing about Buu's compatibility (or lack of) with Kaioshin's energy.
What exactly would be the point in introducing Buff Buu in the transformation from Super Buu to Kid Buu if he would be useless to the story ? Why would Buff Buu be made stronger than Super Buu if South Kaioshin is truly the source of Super Buu`s power ?
Dai Kaioshin still was in Super Buu, but Buff Buu was completely unrestricted by that influence, so, he's stronger. However, after Buff Buu loses that remaining power and reverts to Kid Buu, he becomes weaker, creating a final villain which Goku could fight directly and have some hope of beating.
And since Good Buu was nore more directly connected to Kid Buu , his power was that of South Kaioshin and Dai Kaioshin . He was practiclly a combination between them . If you think about it , Good Buu and Kid Buu exiting is actually a paradox .
So you agree that Good Majin Buu uses the Kaioshin's powers? That means that Majin Buu can use their power, and contradicts your own theory. Buu is Buu, after all.

You speculate that Buu can't use the Kaioshin's energy, even though there's a canon example which clearly shows a Buu directly using their powers.


Besides, after they defeat Kid Buu, they even talk about the possibility of Good Buu creating yet another Evil Buu and starting the whole trouble again, and how they'd need to train to fight if that ever happened. Considering Good Buu isn't responsible for Kid's creation, they can only be talking about the Gray or Super Buus, not Kid.

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Post by Acid_Reign » Sun Feb 04, 2007 5:12 pm

Mystic Jack wrote:
I really would rather not engage in this anymore, but for the record, energy, even if it can't be utilized in one form, can always be transformed to another one. Electric generators, for instance, transform mechanical energy provided by water (which we can't use to light houses) into electricity (which we can). So the notion that there is something inherent in a Kaioshin's Ki that can not be utilized in any form is rather ridiculous.
*claps* Thank you for giving me an opinion I can actually agree with.
No problem. Science triumphs over all. :D

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Post by Magneto » Sun Feb 04, 2007 5:16 pm

And Magneto, Vegeta stated later that Goku never planned on letting him fight in the first place. That throws out your whole "rock, paper, scissors" deal.
Vegeta says : You don`t intend on changing with me , meaning that he was reffering to the present . Besides , there would be no use of playing the rock paper scissors game game if Goku really didn`t want to let Vegeta fight .
I used a crappy fan translation for that statement, since it was more accessible than the alternatives, so you might be right about that quote...
I am
So...? That's exactly what I said. He makes the comment about absorption just after talking about the last absorption.
Kaioshin was done talking about the absorptions , and then Old Kai said that this is the troublesome Buu from the beginning , Kaioshin agreeing and stating that his power decreased with absorption . So it`s [n]not[/b] the same context .
Most Japenese words have no plural, usually. There's nothing special about "absorption"'s lack of plural.
It seems you`ve completly ignored what I wrote and quoted only the part that you liked . Why is that , you can`t combat the point ? And now you`re also changing the subject ? I was talking about the fact that since the word absorption doesn`t have a plural in the japanese language , Kaioshin reffered to the fact that his ability to absorb dropped his power from absorbing the 2 kais .
Fact 1: Majin Buu itself isn't the one absorbing that energy, considering later battles show he has no way to absorb remote energy, he's only receiving it.

Fact 2: It's stated that they can't use Kaioshin's energy to revive Buu, nothing about the nature of Kaioshin's energy being incompatible with Buu.

Everything that means is that Kaioshin's energy can't be used by the method of remote collecting. It says nothing about Buu's compatibility (or lack of) with Kaioshin's energy.
As a matter of fact Fat Buu directly absorbs the energy since the energy is used to make him stronger , thus being directly given to him .
And since they said they can`t use the energy from Kaioshin or Kibito and not that they can`t collect it using their means it means that the energy can`t be used on Buu . Not being able to collect and not being able to use are 2 different things . The word use already implies that it was collected , but it was not usefull to Boo .

Do I really have to explain this like to small children ?
So you agree that Good Majin Buu uses the Kaioshin's powers? That means that Majin Buu can use their power, and contradicts your own theory. Buu is Buu, after all.

You speculate that Buu can't use the Kaioshin's energy, even though there's a canon example which clearly shows a Buu directly using their powers.


Besides, after they defeat Kid Buu, they even talk about the possibility of Good Buu creating yet another Evil Buu and starting the whole trouble again, and how they'd need to train to fight if that ever happened. Considering Good Buu isn't responsible for Kid's creation, they can only be talking about the Gray or Super Buus, not Kid.
Kid Buu and Good Buu are 2 different type of beings . Good Buu is composed from only 2 beings , those being South Kaioshin and Dai Kaioshin , without any dirrect connection to Kid Buu , thus I don`t see how it contradicts anything .

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Post by Tyro » Sun Feb 04, 2007 5:39 pm

Magneto wrote:
And Magneto, Vegeta stated later that Goku never planned on letting him fight in the first place. That throws out your whole "rock, paper, scissors" deal.
Vegeta says : You don`t intend on changing with me , meaning that he was reffering to the present . Besides , there would be no use of playing the rock paper scissors game game if Goku really didn`t want to let Vegeta fight .
Son Goku: "You wanna switch already?! Gimme a minute!"

Vegeta: "...Heh...Quit lying. You never planned to switch."

"Never planned." He knew about it. He wasn't going to let him do it.

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Post by Acid_Reign » Sun Feb 04, 2007 5:45 pm

Magneto, I already refuted the point about the energy being incompatible. You're claiming he can collect the energy but doesn't have any way to use it? Sounds like a straw-man's argument.

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Post by Magneto » Sun Feb 04, 2007 5:45 pm

Tyro wrote:
Magneto wrote:
And Magneto, Vegeta stated later that Goku never planned on letting him fight in the first place. That throws out your whole "rock, paper, scissors" deal.
Vegeta says : You don`t intend on changing with me , meaning that he was reffering to the present . Besides , there would be no use of playing the rock paper scissors game game if Goku really didn`t want to let Vegeta fight .
Son Goku: "You wanna switch already?! Gimme a minute!"

Vegeta: "...Heh...Quit lying. You never planned to switch."

"Never planned." He knew about it. He wasn't going to let him do it.
Same thing . He didn`t intend to switch only after fighting Kid Buu , but this doesn`t mean that he wouldn`t have let Vegeta fight against Kid Buu if he would have won the rock paper scissors game .
I`m gonna translate it from the original manga tomorrow , coz I`m tired right now .
Last edited by Magneto on Sun Feb 04, 2007 5:52 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Post by Magneto » Sun Feb 04, 2007 5:47 pm

Acid_Reign wrote:Magneto, I already refuted the point about the energy being incompatible. You're claiming he can collect the energy but doesn't have any way to use it? Sounds like a straw-man's argument.
Refuted ? With what ? The statement proves that Kaioshin energy can`t powerup Buu . What exactly did you counter it with ?

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Post by Acid_Reign » Sun Feb 04, 2007 6:03 pm

Magneto wrote:
Acid_Reign wrote:Magneto, I already refuted the point about the energy being incompatible. You're claiming he can collect the energy but doesn't have any way to use it? Sounds like a straw-man's argument.
Refuted ? With what ? The statement proves that Kaioshin energy can`t powerup Buu . What exactly did you counter it with ?
I just quoted it up a few posts ago. Basically, even if Boo can't use Kaioshin energy in one form, he could have processed it into a form that he could.

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Post by Tyro » Sun Feb 04, 2007 6:21 pm

Magneto wrote:Same thing . He didn`t intend to switch only after fighting Kid Buu , but this doesn`t mean that he wouldn`t have let Vegeta fight against Kid Buu if he would have won the rock paper scissors game .
I`m gonna translate it from the original manga tomorrow , coz I`m tired right now .
Holy cow! Are you kidding me? You post crap like "You're not getting my point. You're obviously ignoring it. You can't argue back," and suddenly you post this? What does the meaning of 'never' mean to you anyway?

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Post by Magneto » Mon Feb 05, 2007 5:12 am

I just quoted it up a few posts ago. Basically, even if Boo can't use Kaioshin energy in one form, he could have processed it into a form that he could.
Not really . Who says Buu could have processed it into a form he could ? And who says Kaioshin energy could be processed at all like other forms of energy ?
Holy cow! Are you kidding me? You post crap like "You're not getting my point. You're obviously ignoring it. You can't argue back," and suddenly you post this? What does the meaning of 'never' mean to you anyway?
At least when you quote something , try to actually understand what it means . It says you never planned to switch , meaning that when Goku fought Buu he had no intention of not killing him and let Vegeta take a shot at him . But it certainly doesn`t mean that in the beginning , when they played the rock paper scissors game Goku wouldn`t have Vegeta fight him . Switch is the keyword since it could have happened only after Goku started fighting Boo .

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Post by Acid_Reign » Mon Feb 05, 2007 9:53 am

Magneto wrote:Not really . Who says Buu could have processed it into a form he could ? And who says Kaioshin energy could be processed at all like other forms of energy ?
For that matter, who says he couldn't have? You can't definitely prove it one way or the other, but I'd be willing to bet that there is nothing "special" about Kaioshin energy that makes it exempt from the laws of thermodynamics.

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Post by Magneto » Mon Feb 05, 2007 10:18 am

Acid_Reign wrote:
Magneto wrote:Not really . Who says Buu could have processed it into a form he could ? And who says Kaioshin energy could be processed at all like other forms of energy ?
For that matter, who says he couldn't have? You can't definitely prove it one way or the other, but I'd be willing to bet that there is nothing "special" about Kaioshin energy that makes it exempt from the laws of thermodynamics.
It`s your job to prove that he can , otherwise he can`t . Making statements without backing up your claims and then asking me prove it wrong is in no way debating . Besides , if Buu could have transformed it into a usable type of energy , Babidi wouldn`t have made the statement . And since the energy is from a supreme God from a fantasy universe , its full of reasons why it should "exempt from the laws of thermodynamics" .

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Post by gohanku » Mon Feb 05, 2007 10:29 am

I just quoted it up a few posts ago. Basically, even if Boo can't use Kaioshin energy in one form, he could have processed it into a form that he could.
That was what I was trying to say ealier, Buu's magic in his body allows him to convert the enegry! It that simple! And Magneto, how does the energy goes into Buu through his eggshell? Babidi is using the ship and his magical energybox to put the energy in, maybe both of them can't support or convert Kaioshin's energy.
If Goku thinks he can win , he can . So it doesn`t matter if it was a "no choice" fight , if Goku insinuates that he will win , he would.
So, when Goku thought he could win against Jackie Chuan, he won? When he thought he could win against King Piccolo in their first fight, did he won? :roll: And Rocketman didn't need to withdraw back his statement on Cell, he witnessed Perfect Cell and he still thought he could won.
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Post by Magneto » Mon Feb 05, 2007 10:39 am

That was what I was trying to say ealier, Buu's magic in his body allows him to convert the enegry! It that simple! And Magneto, how does the energy goes into Buu through his eggshell? Babidi is using the ship and his magical energybox to put the energy in, maybe both of them can't support or convert Kaioshin's energy.
Prove that Buu`s magical body allows him to convert energy , and specifically Kaioshin energy . And what does the ship and his magican energy box have to do with anything ? When Goku & Vegeta were fighting , Buu`s cocoon was out of the ship and it had nothing to do with the magical energybox that spopovitch and yamu were carying (if that`s what you`re reffering too) .
So, when Goku thought he could win against Jackie Chuan, he won? When he thought he could win against King Piccolo in their first fight, did he won? Rolling Eyes And Rocketman didn't need to withdraw back his statement on Cell, he witnessed Perfect Cell and he still thought he could won.
Did Goku have the ability to sense powerlevels against Jackie Chun and King Piccolo ? I`m not that much into Dragonball , so I`m not sure about this one . But I`m almost positive he couldn`t , so his statements are nullified .
Goku knows when he can and cannot beat an enemy . Take Cell for example , he said from the start that he doesn`t think he can beat him , and he eventually didn`t .
And it seems you didn`t understand what`s the thing with Vegeta`s statement against Cell . Cell was in his most supressed form when he first appeared against Vegeta , and that`s why he thought he could beat him .It was later revealed that he is a lot stronger , which only helps my side since it`s pratically almost identicall with Vegeta in Kid Buu`s case .

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Post by Acid_Reign » Mon Feb 05, 2007 10:45 am

Magneto wrote:It`s your job to prove that he can , otherwise he can`t . Making statements without backing up your claims and then asking me prove it wrong is in no way debating . Besides , if Buu could have transformed it into a usable type of energy , Babidi wouldn`t have made the statement . And since the energy is from a supreme God from a fantasy universe , its full of reasons why it should "exempt from the laws of thermodynamics" .
It's called reasonable doubt. Your doubts aren't founded; you're just being dismissive. You're saying that Babidi would have said something else if it was usable in a different form, but how do you know that? When he made the statement he wasn't talking about absorptions, he was talking about revivals. It would have been irrelevant to bring it up at the time. Furthermore, his father created Boo. It's pretty likely that he doesn't know everything about him.

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Post by Mr.Piccolo » Mon Feb 05, 2007 10:50 am

Whoa, whoa. Hold on, I'm actually writing a rant, turned Buu Arc summary right now. I'll either edit this post when I'm done or have it here in a little bit..!
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Post by Magneto » Mon Feb 05, 2007 11:01 am

It's called reasonable doubt. Your doubts aren't founded; you're just being dismissive. You're saying that Babidi would have said something else if it was usable in a different form, but how do you know that? When he made the statement he wasn't talking about absorptions, he was talking about revivals. It would have been irrelevant to bring it up at the time. Furthermore, his father created Boo. It's pretty likely that he doesn't know everything about him.
My doubts aren`t founded ? You can`t prove anything you say , yet you just expect me to agree with you just because ?
Absorption and trying to revive Boo are the same thing since both represent giving Buu energy . Use your brain so I don`t really have to explain everything to you .
And just because his father created him means what ? You think Babidi said that they can`t use Kaioshin energy just because he felt like it ? :roll:

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