Tales from the Daizenshuu

[Herms]

Thank you Herms!

So what does it say about "Kiri's?"

OK, so I actually wrote down what the entry for kiri in Daizenshuu 7's terms dictionary says. However, I can't type in Japanese characters right now, so I'll have to write it out in romanji. If you'd still like to see a scan, I'll ask Saiyan to make you one later.

"Kiri: Babidi no tsukatteiru enerugii tani. Yakon to no tatakai de, Gokuu no enerugii wo keisoku shita toki, kono tani wo mochiita. Toku: Gokuu no enerugii chi wa 3000 kiri ijou. Oyoso 200~300 kiri de, 1~2 ko no hoshi wo hakai dekiru."

For those of you playing along at home, my own personal translation of the above:

"Kiri: The unit of energy measurement Babidi uses. When Babidi measured Goku's energy during his fight with Yakan, he used these units. Special features: Goku's energy was over 3,000 kiri. With approximately 200-300 kiri, you could destroy 1-2 planets."

[Rocketman]

"Kiri: The unit of energy measurement Babidi uses. When Babidi measured Goku's energy during his fight with Yakan, he used these units. Special features: Goku's energy was over 3,000 kiri. With approximately 200-300 kiri, you could destroy 1-2 planets."

So, Saiyan Saga Vegeta was in the 200-300 kiri range.

And Buu Saga SSJ Goku was only ten times stronger.

:psyduck:

[Herms]

So, Saiyan Saga Vegeta was in the 200-300 kiri range.

And Buu Saga SSJ Goku was only ten times stronger.

:psyduck:

I'm almost 100% sure that the line about being able to destroy one to two planets with 200-300 kiri was said by Dabra in the manga, and I'm equally sure Babidi did say Goku was 3,000 kiri, so...blame Toriyama?

[Godo]

"Kiri: The unit of energy measurement Babidi uses. When Babidi measured Goku's energy during his fight with Yakan, he used these units. Special features: Goku's energy was over 3,000 kiri. With approximately 200-300 kiri, you could destroy 1-2 planets."

So, Saiyan Saga Vegeta was in the 200-300 kiri range.

And Buu Saga SSJ Goku was only ten times stronger.

:psyduck:

So if Brolly was ten times stronger than SSJ Goku that could destroy many planets, then LSSJ Brolly could destroy galaxies! It says so in the movie!

j/k

The thing about destroying a planet is very inconsistent in Dragonball overall.
If Kame Sennins full power kamehameha destroyed the moon easily, then it wouldn't be that awesome to see Vegeta destroy planets.
Another thing is that if such a small amount of energy is enough to destroy a planet, then shooting a regular chi-beam at the power of 5000 would destroy the whole planet as it hit the ground.

[FindKenshi]

I'm almost 100% sure that the line about being able to destroy one to two planets with 200-300 kiri was said by Dabra in the manga

Actually, that's not true. I can instantly recognize that as an anime-only line. Unless Viz just completly left it out, that line is nowhere to be found in the manga.

Anyway, I guess inconsitencies like that one fall back on my "What does Daizenshuu mean to you?" thread. I guess it's a reminder that not everything in these books should truly be taken seriously. I mean, like I said earlier in this thread, the whole "Salza comes from Jeic's star system, knows 7,000 languages, and fought Captin Ginyu a long time ago for control of the Cooler Armored Squadron" just sounds like some "random facts" that they attached to Salza via a dart board.

I mean honestly, that's a bit contradictary now that I think about it. That would mean Ginyu should be aware of powers beyond Freeza in existance, but he clearly wasn't in the manga/anime.

[Olivier Hague]

I guess it's a reminder that not everything in these books should truly be taken seriously. I mean, like I said earlier in this thread, the whole "Salza comes from Jeic's star system, knows 7,000 languages, and fought Captin Ginyu a long time ago for control of the Cooler Armored Squadron" just sounds like some "random facts" that they attached to Salza via a dart board.

As opposed to... what? ^_^;

I mean honestly, that's a bit contradictary now that I think about it. That would mean Ginyu should be aware of powers beyond Freeza in existance, but he clearly wasn't in the manga/anime.

Er... It's a movie anyway. Did it look like he was aware of Coora's existence?

[FindKenshi]

Well, I'm just saying that whole statement about Kiri required to destroy a planet, which implies that Freeza is only 10x stronger then Saiyan Saga Vegeta is an actual mathematical impossibility, based on numbers actually from the Daizneshuu themselves. But, I digress, power levels really aren't that significant. It's just a minor note that the books contain internal contradictions is all.

And yes, i do think the Sauza tidbit is slightly contradictary. Why would Ginyu fight Sauza over control of Coora's armored squadron, if he didn't know Coora existed? In the manga/anime Ginyu makes it seem very apparent that he believes Freeza is the most powerful force in existance. And there isn't even any evidnece that Ginyu knows about anything other then Freeza's first form. If he really did know about Coora, and even Sauza for that matter.. meh.. it just hurts trying to make sense of that little "factoid."

Sauza fought post-Namek Piccolo evenly, which implies a power at least near one million, but Captain Ginyu is stated to only be 180,000... must not have been much of a fight. And again, it would kind of show Ginyu that Freeza isn't as superior as he thought. I just don't see it as being really possible to have actually happened in-continuity.

Anyway, I know it seems I'm retracting my "changed opinon" of the Daizneshuu, but I'm really not. I still respect the books and will not ignore them like some fans do, I'm just saying it took an inconsistency such as that to remind me of the fact that although I will not ignore the books, I also will not take everything they present as fact.

[Godo]

Even if Ginyu knew of Coola's squadron, it wouldn't matter.
Coola was known to have reached the same form as Freeza's final form. And they knew he was weaker than Freeza in that form.
They had no idea of Cooler's fifth form according to the movie.
So technically, as far as Ginyu knew, Freeza was the strongest being in the universe.

But as Olivier Hauge says, it's a movie.

[Chibi Mystic Gohan]

I don't know how to type those little brackets they have around "Dragon Ball Z Anime Special", so I just wrote them as '.

Those are actually Japanese quotation marks, FYI.

[Herms]

I don't know how to type those little brackets they have around "Dragon Ball Z Anime Special", so I just wrote them as '.

Those are actually Japanese quotation marks, FYI.

I actually did know that, but I was just trying to describe them for DaemonCorps.

As for the whole Sauzer thing: I think any piece of information about a movie that doesn't really fit into continuity with the main storyline in the first place is inherently going to have some contradictions with the main storyline. But if the information about him fighting Ginyu and what-not really did appear in Weekly Jump, then that would make it as authoritative as any information on a movie character could be.

On kiri: I could have sworn the whole "200-300 kiri=planet go bye-bye" bit was in the manga. I don't have access to my manga right now, but would anyone mind checking? Preferably the Japanese version, since I'm wondering if maybe Viz left it out.

[caejones]

The conversion between Kiris and the units used in Freeza's scouters doesn't have to be linear. In addition, planets are different sies and compositions, and itshould take different forces to destroy different planets.

[Toriyama Boss]

If you'd still like to see a scan, I'll ask Saiyan to make you one later.

"Kiri: Babidi no tsukatteiru enerugii tani. Yakon to no tatakai de, Gokuu no enerugii wo keisoku shita toki, kono tani wo mochiita. Toku: Gokuu no enerugii chi wa 3000 kiri ijou. Oyoso 200~300 kiri de, 1~2 ko no hoshi wo hakai dekiru."

For those of you playing along at home, my own personal translation of the above:

"Kiri: The unit of energy measurement Babidi uses. When Babidi measured Goku's energy during his fight with Yakan, he used these units. Special features: Goku's energy was over 3,000 kiri. With approximately 200-300 kiri, you could destroy 1-2 planets."[/

Thank you Herms.
I would like to see a scan if you could get Saiyan to provide it.

So, you could destroy two planets with a Kiri level of 200-300, Yakon's measuring was 800 and Goku's 3,000.

Can anyone do the math on how many planets Yakon and Goku could destroy (I suck, I know). Seems kind of weird:?:

On kiri: I could have sworn the whole "200-300 kiri=planet go bye-bye" bit was in the manga. I don't have access to my manga right now, but would anyone mind checking? Preferably the Japanese version, since I'm wondering if maybe Viz left it out.

Actually, that's not true. I can instantly recognize that as an anime-only line. Unless Viz just completly left it out, that line is nowhere to be found in the manga.

Well, that line isn't in the manga or anime. It just states both of the energies Goku and Yakon have from the Kiri readings.



Red caption on right:"Highly praised! The prince of Saiyan"

Black caption middle top:"Pride of the Fighter Race! The fight of the lonesome warrior Vegeta."

"This illustration story depicts the story of Vegeta, from his younger days starting with his birth as prince of the fighting race - Saiyan, until the point which he was killed by Freeza and then resurrected with the power of Purunga (the dragon of Planet Namek).

This story acts as a continuation of the Freeza Arc in the TV series, depicting the background story of Vegeta harbouring killing intent towards Freeza while he was acting as his subordinate, and the secret reason for him to have an interest in Earth's dragonball.

Similar to Piccolo's Arc, the script is written by Mr Takao Koyama and illustrations by Mr Minoru Maeda."

Connection (or continuity) with Main Story

"In Episode 78 of DBZ, it tells the story of the destruction of Planet Vegeta by Freeza and the real story behind the extinction of Saiyajin. The appearance of young Vegeta, King Vegeta and other characters that were not created in the canon is the pivoting reason for this episode.

Purple image's caption: Freeza leading a band of warriors to rebel against King Vegeta in the anime. However, the power of Freeza was way above what the king had expected.

Vegeta image's caption: Young Vegeta as shown in the anime. From this moment on, he was very arrogant."

Blue title: Trunks Arc: The lonely fighter from the future!! Trunks

The warrior who arrived from the desolate future. The story of the sole warrior.

Trunks came from the desolate future world in which a battle was fought with artificial human beings. The story is written in a style of memory recollection from Trunks youthful time to present day in which he was defeated by Cell. As he reconciled the differences between his imagination and the reality of who Vegeta, his father whom he met for the first time was, he slowly began to understand his father. The script was supervised by Mr Aya Matsui, illustrations by Mr Minoru Maeda.

The other images are too small for me to read. I can't translate the Akira Toriyama interviews from the Shenron times, nor the Gohan scans for those of you who are interested.

Sorry.

[Olivier Hague]

Can anyone do the math on how many planets Yakon and Goku could destroy

And, more importantly, how many galaxies?

[Herms]

Well, that line isn't in the manga or anime. It just states both of the energies Goku and Yakon have from the Kiri readings.

Damn, you mean it was new information? I wouldn't have even written down anything on it if you hadn't asked me about it beforehand. Makes me wonder what else I missed because I thought it was just old information.

(Although I kind of don't like where my posting that excerpt has taken this thread)

Can anyone do the math on how many planets Yakon and Goku could destroy (I suck, I know). Seems kind of weird:?:

Umm...well, I don't think it's really intended to be so...precise or anything. It didn't even really say what it meant that you could destroy a planet with 200 or so kiri. I mean, if you get 400 kiri does that make you double as destructive as somebody with 200, or is the increase exponential? And if Goku were to blow up the Planet of Darkness or wherever they were at at the time, would that put him down to 2,700 kiri or would he still be 3,000? I don't know. We can't know, because they don't give us enough information. I don't think they came up with these numbers with the intention that people use them to calculate anything; they're basically just another way of saying "Gee, look how awesome Goku is now!".

[Toriyama Boss]

Can anyone do the math on how many planets Yakon and Goku could destroy

And, more importantly, how many galaxies?

??? That's impossible, isn't it.
Then again, it's Dragonball.

Damn, you mean it was new information? I wouldn't have even written down anything on it if you hadn't asked me about it beforehand. Makes me wonder what else I missed because I thought it was just old information.

(Although I kind of don't like where my posting that excerpt has taken this thread)

Yep, it's new info. Dragonball has left a lot of fans with unanswered questions. That is why it is good to have these Dragonball guide books, like the Daizenshuu on hand.

Umm...well, I don't think it's really intended to be so...precise or anything. It didn't even really say what it meant that you could destroy a planet with 200 or so kiri. I mean, if you get 400 kiri does that make you double as destructive as somebody with 200, or is the increase exponential? And if Goku were to blow up the Planet of Darkness or wherever they were at at the time, would that put him down to 2,700 kiri or would he still be 3,000? I don't know. We can't know, because they don't give us enough information. I don't think they came up with these numbers with the intention that people use them to calculate anything; they're basically just another way of saying "Gee, look how awesome Goku is now!".

Hmmm I guess your right.
I just thought it would be interesting to see how powerful Super Saiya-jin Goku was at that time.

[Rocketman]

If Kame Sennins full power kamehameha destroyed the moon easily, then it wouldn't be that awesome to see Vegeta destroy planets.

1. The Moon is only 1% the mass of the Earth.

2. If it takes a power level of 130-ish to destroy the Moon, and the Earth is 100 times more massive, then it takes 13,000 to destroy the Earth.

Huh, that part kinda matches up...

[FindKenshi]

Even if Ginyu knew of Coola's squadron, it wouldn't matter.
Coola was known to have reached the same form as Freeza's final form. And they knew he was weaker than Freeza in that form.
They had no idea of Cooler's fifth form according to the movie.
So technically, as far as Ginyu knew, Freeza was the strongest being in the universe.

But as Olivier Hauge says, it's a movie.

Wait..huh? "Coola was known to have reached the same form as Freeza's final form." yes he was... but.. "And they knew he was weaker then Freeza in that form." This is what I disagree with. Cooler pre-transformation from the movie is ... weaker then 1st form Freeza? Impossible.

There's also the fact that Freeza states "You're the first ones to ever see this." When he goes into his third form, and I do believe he says something else to that effect when he goes into his Final Form. Not even Kaio-sama knew about his transformations, and he's the one who's been keeping his eye on Freeza.

Not to mention, as I already pointed out, Sauza himself would have been stronger then 1st form Freeza, by quite a good deal; since he was able to fight evenly with post-Namek Piccolo. Zarbon is the only Freeza-minion stated to even know that Freeza can transform. There's no indication that anyone else really even knew. This is why I think Ginyu believes that it is the 530,000 battle-power Freeza that is the strongest in the universe.

And again, the other part that doesn't make any sense about that factoid is that he fought Sauza.. he fought a being with a power that should be around a million or so, him being only 120,000? And.. Goku's 180,000 was the strongest he had encountered other then Freeza? Something doesn't add up. It's impossible.

[Godo]

Even if Ginyu knew of Coola's squadron, it wouldn't matter.
Coola was known to have reached the same form as Freeza's final form. And they knew he was weaker than Freeza in that form.
They had no idea of Cooler's fifth form according to the movie.
So technically, as far as Ginyu knew, Freeza was the strongest being in the universe.

But as Olivier Hauge says, it's a movie.

Wait..huh? "Coola was known to have reached the same form as Freeza's final form." yes he was... but.. "And they knew he was weaker then Freeza in that form." This is what I disagree with. Cooler pre-transformation from the movie is ... weaker then 1st form Freeza? Impossible.

There's also the fact that Freeza states "You're the first ones to ever see this." When he goes into his third form, and I do believe he says something else to that effect when he goes into his Final Form. Not even Kaio-sama knew about his transformations, and he's the one who's been keeping his eye on Freeza.

Not to mention, as I already pointed out, Sauza himself would have been stronger then 1st form Freeza, by quite a good deal; since he was able to fight evenly with post-Namek Piccolo. Zarbon is the only Freeza-minion stated to even know that Freeza can transform. There's no indication that anyone else really even knew. This is why I think Ginyu believes that it is the 530,000 battle-power Freeza that is the strongest in the universe.

And again, the other part that doesn't make any sense about that factoid is that he fought Sauza.. he fought a being with a power that should be around a million or so, him being only 120,000? And.. Goku's 180,000 was the strongest he had encountered other then Freeza? Something doesn't add up. It's impossible.

Yeah you are right. But I meant that Coola's fourth form was weaker than Freeza's fourth form.

[FindKenshi]

Yeah you are right. But I meant that Coola's fourth form was weaker than Freeza's fourth form.

Ok, that's understandable. Anyway, that "number of kiri" to destroy a planet may not be in the manga, (not in my manga anyway) but I'm pretty sure it is from the anime. I mean, something to that effect was stated in the Funimation Dub, so I always figured it was from the Japnaese version too, just "translated over". If it was just a "bad dub line" it would be a pretty big conicidence that the Daizenshuu also says something similar--maybe even imply that the writers at Funi got some of their "bad dub lines" out of the Daizenshuu?

Come to think of it, I'm reminded of an old line that was famous for being a "bad dub line" in which Kaiosama tells the z-senshi he's training that "Each member [of the Ginyu Force] is five times stronger then Goku!" Everyone had always laughed about how bad that line is and how Ocean/Pioneer or whoever it was doing that old dub pulled the line out of nowhere.. but to be honest.. that's pretty accurate.

Considering Kaiosama is going on Goku's old power level (over 8,000) lets see 8000*5=40,000.. which is actually pretty good "ball-park" estimate for Bata/Jheese/and Rikum. I mean, Ginyu estimated that a power of 65,000 would be able to stomp them as easily as Goku did, and Vegeta at 30,000 was less then them, so really 40-50 thousand range sounds like a fair guess doesn't it? So for a bad dub line it actually showed that either Pioneer had did a bit of homework.. or just that it was all a huge conincidence that the "bad dub line" was actually somewhat reasonable.

[Thanos6]

I have a question. Does it say anywhere in #6 or #7 whether Dr. Cochin, from the World's Strongest, is a cyborg or a full android?