How strong are Goten and Trunks ?

[Horgus]

No. #16 could, and they were surprised when he revealed that.

I don't think he could sense ki, (he wasn't even a living being) but for some reason, he had accurate sensors.

Why Dr. Gero would build an early model like 16 with accurate sensors, and then bungle the sensors on the rest of his models (including his own) is a hard question to answer.

[Yamcha_krillin]

One small question;

Can Androids like 17 or 18 even sense KI or power of another fighter,IIRC they can't.

No. #16 could, and they were surprised when he revealed that.

Thanks

Then #18 was definitly just schocked that they are that strong for kids and not worried.

Now i don't belive that they are anything stronger then SSJ Goku on namek.

[Super Saiyan Turlast x4]

Android #18 doesn't need to be able sense to feel the intensity of an attack. She said "That power", so she could feel the power of the beam that went right by her. The shocked for kids thing is really overused.

[Cypher]

Although, to be fair, seeing two kids with power at the level Goten and Trunks possess would be somewhat shocking, particularly in that no-one else in the series possessed such power at their respective ages... To address the main point, I have no idea whatsoever about how powerful they are supposed to be

[Rocketman]

The shocked for kids thing is really overused.

1. Why?

2. It's less sheer stupid than the little bastards being around Super Vegeta's level.

[Kid Trunks]

The shocked for kids thing is really overused.

I agree.

Ok, so I'm going to quote some of the Viz manga to back up the case that Goten and Trunks are stronger than 18. If someone knows the Japanese version, feel free to correct. But since I can't read Japanese, I'll just have to use Viz.

1. 18 throws a few punches at Mighty Mask. Trunks blocks them, then says "It's so hard to move!!!!". 18 then smashes them into the ground, but they jump up (completely unaffected). Trunks says "Y'know Goten, you could kick her her", to which Goten replies "But I can't see!".

So far, its obvious that the Mighty Mask costume is holding them back.

2. Goten and Trunks fly up into the air. 18 says "What a weirdo...His limbs are too small for his body..But he's so strong". The kids go SSJ. 18 notices this ...Oh-ho...! SSJs. Now I know who you are... boys!". The boys then decide to use chi blasts. Goten is sceptical (Chi?! "Are you sure...?). Goten then says "Don't use full power", and Trunks says "I know".

Not its obvious that 18 considers Mighty Mask "so strong", before anyone went SSJ, and while they were being held back by the costume (and the fact that Goten hadn't been helpng because he couldn't see).

3. The chi blast is thrown, and 18 looks surprised. She says "Y-You've gotta be kidding me...That speed...That power...Are those twits really that good...? In that case- I better end this quick". She throws a kienzan, cuts the costume and the boys are disqualified". She then gives a sigh of relief "Phew"...

Even though she's aware the kids are SSJ, she's shocked by the blast, so shocked that she has to end the battle quick. And by "end this quick" she doesn't mean shes going to fight them. Instead, she goes straight for the disqualification, showing that she was outmatched (even though the boys hadn't shown full power yet), and that she didn't like her chances.

After all that, it comes across to me that Goten and Trunks are at least as strong as 18.

[mAcChaos]

She went for the DQ because the kids were loose cannons and with that kind of power the entire stadium could've gone up in smoke.

[Cypher]

While I understand that there are two very different schools of thought as regards Trunks' and Goten's power, and to outright disregard the possibility of their being pretty damn powerful does involve avoiding the facts that are presented in the manga, it does seem equally short-sighted to completely dismiss out of hand the idea of their power levels being impressive for their age(s) as a factor in how everyone reacts to the two boys. Say for example you are able to run the 100m. in 10 seconds, after years of training. Your little brother, also an aspiring athlete, wants to have a race. You indulge him, thinking 'Well, I won't go all out and depress him'. He then proceeds to give you a fairly good race, meaning you have to speed up, but still win; he has run the 100m. in 11.5 seconds. This is still really impressive, especially considering his youth and relative lack of training.

Now, I'm not going to try and guess how Goten and Trunks compare to their dads and everyone else, but the fact that they're kids is surely PART of why everyone is impressed with them, whether they're each twice as strong in base form as SSJ Vegetto (NOTE: this is just a joke!) or as strong as Goku was on Namek, or whatever?

Also- 18 doesn't categorically state 'Damn...they're so strong! I've got no chance whatsoever of beating them, at all! Not at all! Not even slightly!!!' She is out to win the money, as I understand it (especially in light of her later 'fight' with Satan), and simply removes Trunks and Goten as an obstacle that COULD cost her the winnings. From this, it's not crystal clear whether she is: vastly more powerful and could win easily; slightly more powerful and could still win (with effort); or less powerful.

[Kid Trunks]

She went for the DQ because the kids were loose cannons and with that kind of power the entire stadium could've gone up in smoke.

Where's the proof of this?

[Rocketman]

Now its obvious that 18 considers Mighty Mask "so strong", before anyone went SSJ,

Yes, because she thought Mighty Mask was a normal human. And then suddenly "he"'s able to keep up with her.

[Kid Trunks]

Now its obvious that 18 considers Mighty Mask "so strong", before anyone went SSJ,

Yes, because she thought Mighty Mask was a normal human. And then suddenly "he"'s able to keep up with her.

Not at all. She said that after they'd been fighting on the ground(when Mighty Mask blocked everything), flew into the air, fought again, smashed him into the ground, saw him get up without a scratch, watched him charge at her in the sky, and then shot a chi blast at him (which he dodged). She knew well advance that he wasn't normal when she said that. There was no "suddenly" about it, because Mighty Mask had been keeping up with her from the very beginning. Not to mention, she had alrady taken notice of Mighty Mask's strength anyway "That weirdo with the long torso...Packs a powerful punch in those little arms". That was even before they fought each other. So the shock factor isn't what people are making it out to be.

[Rocketman]

Not at all. She said that after they'd been fighting on the ground(when Mighty Mask blocked everything), flew into the air, fought again, smashed him into the ground, saw him get up without a scratch, watched him charge at her in the sky, and then shot a chi blast at him (which he dodged). She knew well advance that he wasn't normal when she said that. There was no "suddenly" about it, because Mighty Mask had been keeping up with her from the very beginning. Not to mention, she had alrady taken notice of Mighty Mask's strength anyway "That weirdo with the long torso...Packs a powerful punch in those little arms". That was even before they fought each other. So the shock factor isn't what people are making it out to be.

Strike out 'normal', then, because my point stands regardless. She thought he was a human, she can't sense ki, and the only human on the planet who could fight her is #17.

On another note, #17 says way back during the SSJ Vegeta/18 fight that "18 can't handle all of them herself". So SSJ Vegeta, pre-Kami Piccolo, and whatever pittance the humans could toss in would be enough to kill 18 (no data on Trunks, recall). The kids don't have to be around Super Vegeta's level to have the effect we see.

[Onikage725]

Ha I have to stand up for Piccolo here. Those two were not individually stronger than him.

I'd also like to point out that #18, lacking ki-sensing abilities, made a JUDGMENT CALL. there's no way for her to know how much power was in the attack without actually taking it, unless she expressly knew how strong the fighter launching it was. In the cases of Vegeta and Trunks in the Cell Saga, she knew she was stronger, so she took them. She had to do more guess work vs "Mighty Mask."

Also, she was kinda getting double teamed. So even if the two of them posed a problem, that doesn't prove that either one of them was stronger than her on his own.

[Rocketman]

Ha I have to stand up for Piccolo here. Those two were not individually stronger than him.

Did I say the Super Buu argument in this thread already? That right there proves the kids are quite a bit weaker than Super Vegeta.

[Kid Trunks]

Not at all. She said that after they'd been fighting on the ground(when Mighty Mask blocked everything), flew into the air, fought again, smashed him into the ground, saw him get up without a scratch, watched him charge at her in the sky, and then shot a chi blast at him (which he dodged). She knew well advance that he wasn't normal when she said that. There was no "suddenly" about it, because Mighty Mask had been keeping up with her from the very beginning. Not to mention, she had alrady taken notice of Mighty Mask's strength anyway "That weirdo with the long torso...Packs a powerful punch in those little arms". That was even before they fought each other. So the shock factor isn't what people are making it out to be.

Strike out 'normal', then, because my point stands regardless. She thought he was a human, she can't sense ki, and the only human on the planet who could fight her is #17.

On another note, #17 says way back during the SSJ Vegeta/18 fight that "18 can't handle all of them herself". So SSJ Vegeta, pre-Kami Piccolo, and whatever pittance the humans could toss in would be enough to kill 18 (no data on Trunks, recall). The kids don't have to be around Super Vegeta's level to have the effect we see.

He may have said that. But it looked pretty obvious that she didn't need his help. She easily took out SSJ Vegeta and SSJ Trunks at the same time. She actually beat them no problem. And looked to be making less of an effort with them two than with Goten and Trunks (who she couldn't beat at all, despite them not fighting at full power, and being held back by the costume).

Seems to me like theres more evidence in favour of them being on her level than not. And for the record, I'm not putting them at Super Vegeta's strength. I see them as about equal to 18.

[Yamcha_krillin]

To add something in here,Base Kid Trunks can't walk in 150 x gravity.

Android 18 before the Budokai started was worned that she can't kill or hurt anyone.If #18 used a bit more of her power she would basicly ends up killing peopel and would get Disqualified.So #18 was going easy

She did saw that Mighty mask was a bit different then a normal human but they did the same feat that Master Roshi was capabel off.Android 18 did call them strong but for a normal human since she doesn't know who he is.The only strong human 18 was around was Krillin who is MUCH weaker then her.


When the boys turned SSJ, #18 looked happy and overconfident.

Trunks then said that they should start using energy blast that wont kill her.Wich basicly means that they are not as strong as #18 if his energy attacks won't hurt her.

Even when they changed to SSJ they still couldn't take the fight to 18 despite the gigantic increase that comes with the ssj transformation which is why they decide only on using ki blasts on her.

Then Trunks fires the blast and Android 18 still manages to dodge it even though it took her by surprise(she didn't expect them to shoot it as fast as they did) meaning she's still faster and stronger than the level Trunks was at.

NOTE that 18 cant sense Power levels or anything,wich also means that she was just schocked(who wouldn't be if you see 2 kids doing what they did).

We also have to take into consideration that Maroon was in the crowd watching the fight and if #18 continued fighting them they could accidentally kill someone,Goten previously in his fight with Trunks showed that he sucks at Power controlling wich i belive was the reason #18 ended the match-

Or;

#18 only way to gaudge someones power level is trough her data files.Because #18 doesn't have any files on Goten and Trunks and since she can't sense KI she basiclly didn't want to risk anything and she decided to DQ them.

When Trunks and Goten figured out that 18 knows who they are, they started panicking and this takes place even before the kienzan was throw.We have to ask ourselfs why would they start panicking this much if they where really that strong.

I don't see how can they be anything stronger then Goku on namek.

[Kid Trunks]

Sounds like your using the anime as a reference. A lot of the stuff that you mentioned doesn't happen in the manga (such as 18 being overconfident, and her saying she needs to end the fight to protect the spectators). And its not that Trunks' blast couldn't kill her necessarily, because he says that he won't use full power in the blast.

Also, this whole thing about 18 not sensing power. I get that, but she obviously has some sort of comprehension of powerlevels. After the chi blast from Trunks she says "Are those two twits really that good". She's obviously referring to a particular level of power in her mind.

Besides, if Raditz came along an shot a chi blast at her, would she be saying the same thing? Don't think so.

[Super Saiyan Turlast x4]

Gohan even says if he doesn't keep up with his training, the kids will eventually surpass him. Seriously, it makes no sense to even say they aren't any better then Goku on namek.

[Cypher]

Yeah, but how long is 'eventually'? He might just be able to see that they have vast potential.

[Deep Thought]

Remember, #18 can't suppress her power, since she's partially a robot. When she pulls back her punches, she has a very hard time doing it. This is proven when she has a hard time punching the punching machine lightly once, and when Goku starts getting on her ass, she says "Shut up, it's hard to control!"

Imagine how well she would fare tapping Mighty Mask lightly, multiple times, in succession. That tells us a lot.