"Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

[ekrolo2]

I disagree. Goku Black is a engaging and entertaining character within the Anime. The Manga has barely spent any time on him and he suffers because of it. The whole Goku Black arc has some bumping roads here and there but is overall superior to the Manga version in my opinion. For me, Anime Goku Black is THE Goku Black.
The Manga is just "light" promotion in my eyes.

That's what I said: the anime is a hot mess of some highs, and lots of lows but it at least has genuine highs where even one guy who dislikes it can say "this was engaging/interesting for this and that reason." The manga is functional but little else.

If I could visually describe it, the manga would be a straight line from start to finish, middle of the road, inoffensive but nothing special while the anime would go up and down and stick to either for various bits of time before going the other way.

[Freeza9000]

I just got done reading Chapter 19 of the Dragon Ball Super manga and here are my comments about it as of now

- Since Trunks's SSJ2 form is as strong as Goku's SSJ3 form and Black has proven to be more powerful than Trunks in his base, why in fuck's name would SSJ2 Vegeta give SSJ2 Goku Black a hard time?
- No Super Saiyan Rose. Ahh, that's disappointing since I thought that the form adds charm to Black's character and fits Black's pretentiousness and elegance.
- Vegeta in Super sure wastes no time against his opponents anymore as he goes into his strongest form, SSJB, and wrecks the shit out of Black in SSJ2.
- This chapter is basically the Vegeta wank fest as Toyotaro decides to wank Vegeta at the expense of diminishing Goku Black as a villain. In the anime, it succeeded in showing how truly intimidating Black truly was, especially when he impaled Vegeta and fought with Future Zamasu in order to own Goku and co. It also shows how much of a devastating duo Goku Black and Future Zamasu are. Now in the manga, Black gets so beaten up to the point where daddy Zamasu saves him from Vegeta's Final Flash.
- Back in the present timeline, Zamasu meets Beerus and co. which Kaioshin from Universe 7 arrives from the future with the Time Ring in order to expose Zamasu's true colors. Hah, you might not be as useless as I used to make you out to be, Kaioshin.
- Ohh boy, Zamasu sure has some guts attempting to attack Beerus with his ki blade. Too bad, Beerus Hakai'ed the shit out of Zamasu. Ahh well, at least Zamasu has guts.

Overall, not really a good chapter. As a matter of fact, the manga is proving itself to be inferior to the anime now.

[Doctor.]

Did I miss something, because that hasn't been made clear to me. Why do I have to make that assumption?

Black defeated Super Saiyan 2 Trunks in his base form. Super Saiyan 2 Trunks was on-par with Super Saiyan 2 Goku and, at full power, slightly below Super Saiyan 3. Now here comes Vegeta in his Super Saiyan 2 form defeating Black in his Super Saiyan 1/2 form, a form which is 50/100 times stronger than his base.

SS2 Vegeta > SS1/2 Black > Base Black > FPSS2 Trunks/SS3 Goku > SS2 Goku.

Vegeta has to be at least 50x stronger than Goku in order for this to make sense.

[zamasu121]

Did I miss something, because that hasn't been made clear to me. Why do I have to make that assumption?

Black defeated Super Saiyan 2 Trunks in his base form. Super Saiyan 2 Trunks was on-par with Super Saiyan 2 Goku and, at full power, slightly below Super Saiyan 3. Now here comes Vegeta in his Super Saiyan 2 form defeating Black in his Super Saiyan 1/2 form, a form which is 50/100 times stronger than his base.

SS2 Vegeta > SS1/2 Black > Base Black > FPSS2 Trunks/SS3 Goku > SS2 Goku.

Vegeta has to be at least 50x stronger than Goku in order for this to make sense.

nah man, black clearly went ssj2 just to power down way below his base form

[batistabus]

Lots of people say they like it, but I haven't heard a good reason why, yet. I have a feeling it's just a nostalgia thing, hardly legitimate.

Reasons RoF is one of my top 3 favorite Dragon Ball movies (next to BoG and DBZ Movie 1).

-It is the funniest Dragon Ball movie. Beerus, Pilaf, and especially Jaco especially are major contributing factors.
-The dialogue between characters is perfect. All of the characters truly feel like themselves, and this is clearly due to Toriyama's contributions. This is not always the case when Toei takes the reigns.
-Freeza is possibly my favorite Dragon Ball villain, and he feels exactly as I remember him. His dialogue (w/Goku, Vegeta, Beerus, Bulma, Sorbet), his plans, Ryusei Nakao's performance, Chris Ayers' performance, the design of Golden Freeza...all fantastic. The way he destroys his henchman without a thought. He successfully becomes stronger than Goku and Vegeta, he successfully defeats Goku, and he successfully destroys the planet. If it weren't for the gods, He would have won. This movie did a great job of displaying Freeza's strenghts and weaknesses as an individual. Also, that legendary freak-out.
-The fight scenes, especially the earthlings vs Freeza's forces, are fantastic.
-The animation throughout the movie looks great. I'm not a fan of the use of CGI, but at least it looks better than the CGI in BoG.
-I love the designs for Goku and Vegeta's new outfits.
-We actually get a glimpse into their training; what they're looking to achieve (moving their body without thinking) as well as their individual weaknesses.
-Expansion of lore including planet-based Hells, the activities of Freeza's forces post-Trunks, the way the rest of the universe perceives Beerus (some in the Galactic Patrol don't even believe he exists), and the introduction of Super Saiyan Blue.

Even though the actions of this film are of little consequence, it's a blast to watch. I'm not saying it's perfect, but there's not much more you could ask from a Dragon Ball movie. Are those enough reasons?

Not that this has anything to do with the manga...although I really enjoyed the chapters Toyotaro did for the film.

[DBZGTKOSDH]

Vegeta has obviously mastered his Mutated SS2 state. He is obviously much stronger than SS3 Goku, and that was the only way he surpassed SS3 Goku (and even Ultimate Gohan) without SSB.

It wasn't fine when, in one moment, Hit is on-par with Super Saiyan Goku and then in the next he can tank hits from Super Saiyan God Goku without any comment about him powering-up.

SSG Goku was obviously holding back, and he threw a small ki blast. He knew that Hit was holding back, and he wouldn't want to finish the fight without forcing him to go all-out. The whole reason he gave up eventually was because Hit couldn't go all-out because of the rules.

[Miracles]

You are talking about developments that the manga has even yet to get to and comparing it with the finished product of the anime. Black and Zamasu revealed how they got Goku's body. The meetings they had were nothing more than theories portrayed by Toriyama. It still had the audience guessing the revelation of Black until Black/Zamasu revealed it themselves. The anime ain't even close to that fight.

Trunks is the same in manga and anime. He wants to protect his world and explains/thinks how he goes about doing so. When he gave us info in how he defeated babidi. which led up to why kai's and gods are a pair. The few panels that show the mental anguish of his world being decimated by Black. Trunks is shown worried and angry in the manga like anime too. It just isn't beaten to death or forced in both mediums. Which is right. Zamasu is portrayed the same, just seems quicker cause it is manga. It doesn't take so many episodes to build up.

How is me talking about Black's mystery going ahead of the manga and anime? They've both resolved these threads and it is more than fair to judge them and the manga is lacking, the manga one just has everyone figure it out immediately while the anime has them guess, get it wrong and revealed in a pretty shocking manner to the characters and the audience. That's a lot more fun than everyone basically sitting down one time, practically reading the real world script and figuring it out that way.

Trunks' anguish is barely present in the manga, the show emphasizes this quite a bit while the manga has what, a couple panels at most? Both work, one is infinitely more interesting and satisfying to watch. Same thing with Zamasu, its functional in both but the anime does it better because there's a gradual build up to it that's cool to watch. Hence why these similarities are engaging in one medium and a lot less so in another.

Zamasu is subtly built up in both. His animosity for mortals and the eliminating of mortals was depicted the first time shown in both anime/manga. Through his discussions with Gowasu and Kaoishin. Trunks emotion is present, we see shots of him in distress in both mediums but nothing heavily focused on in both. It wasn't a focus of his character or the story, only to get across that trunks wanted some help for his world. Yes you jump ahead of Black's reveal, just because someone knows the adversary's plan, does not mean it will be depicted in the same way as anime. The death of Goku could be more horrendous and graphic and extra tidbits that the anime didn't reveal could be shown. It is still too early to say the revelation is lackluster. You used examples how the anime showed Black killing Goku and his family. Manga hasn't gotten there yet. Give it a chance.

[Freeza9000]

Vegeta has obviously mastered his Mutated SS2 state. He is obviously much stronger than SS3 Goku, and that was the only way he surpassed SS3 Goku (and even Ultimate Gohan) without SSB.

When in the hell was that stated?

[OLKv3]

I'm sure I'm alone in this, but I absolutely love when Toyotaro does these odd looking poses.[spoiler][/spoiler]

That looks like Anime Vegeta's battle pose. He did it against Hit and Black IIRC

Where hasn't Toriyama reached the audience?

I was referring to Toyotaro: his work is completely hollow, there's nothing there to grab your attention and keep you reading. Even the art isn't that great when you see what some other guys are doing in the doujinshi circles Toyotaro started out from.

Hm I think you may have a point actually, like the future fight R1 in the anime ended in that cliffhanger with Vegeta getting stabbed and Zamasu arriving in turn got you hooked in for the next episode. While reading through this that just wasn't there, all it was Vegeta stomping Black & then even the death of present Zamasu lacked anything, we at least got to see Zamasu commit the crime before Beerus and Whis rewinded time and interfered while here Beerus just interfered from the get go.

He's done a poor job of setting the villains up here.

You can only say this because you know how the story ends. When the manga was ahead, it generated plenty of hype with the chapter endings. He got people interested in Frost and Botamo.

[ekrolo2]

You can only say this because you know how the story ends. When the manga was ahead, it generated plenty of hype with the chapter endings. He got people interested in Frost and Botamo.

By that logic, I should've found stuff like the Dragon Ball manga unengaging because I watched Kai or found the Pain arc of Naruto boring to watch in the anime because I saw it in the manga first or found TDKReturns movies boring because I read the comic, none of these happened. Fiction, especially manga/anime where adaptations are quite often pretty much copy/paste jobs from one medium to another, have plenty of examples of different versions of virtually the same story engaging the audience. The Super manga, while functionally a lot more sound than the anime is completely unremarkable, it doesn't have anything pants-shittingly terrible but it doesn't set the world on fire either, its just there in the corner, enjoying its inoffensive averageness.

[Doctor.]

or found the Pain arc of Naruto boring to watch in the anime

You mean you didn't?

[DBZGTKOSDH]

Vegeta has obviously mastered his Mutated SS2 state. He is obviously much stronger than SS3 Goku, and that was the only way he surpassed SS3 Goku (and even Ultimate Gohan) without SSB.

When in the hell was that stated?

Battle of Gods, Super anime, Super manga, even XenoVerse. SS3 Goku, SS3 Gotenks, and U. Gohan couldn't do shit against Beerus, but Mutated SS2 Vegeta could give him some trouble, and was stated to be stronger than SS3 Goku. Now SS2 Vegeta is stronger than SS Black, who is x50 stronger than base Black, who is much stronger than SS2 Trunks at full power, who is at the same level as SS3 Goku, and Goku & Vegeta are at the same level in the same forms. So, Vegeta has to be in a state that Goku can't reach, and that's Mutated SS2 from BoG. We don't know what the chapter says about SS2 Vegeta's power yet, but this is the only logical conclusion.

[ekrolo2]

or found the Pain arc of Naruto boring to watch in the anime

You mean you didn't?

The Pain arc is my crack, I can't find it boring no matter what.

[Zamasu55]

Seeing Black getting absolutely smashed made me laugh so hard...

[Doctor.]

or found the Pain arc of Naruto boring to watch in the anime

You mean you didn't?

The Pain arc is my crack, I can't find it boring no matter what.

E-Even the *gulp* ending?

[Baggie_Saiyan]

You can only say this because you know how the story ends. When the manga was ahead, it generated plenty of hype with the chapter endings. He got people interested in Frost and Botamo.

That maybe then I'm talking about now. The Manga has done a poor job of setting both villains up nothing interesting or engaging happened in this chapter even. I may know the destination but there are plenty of routes to get there.
He wasted time with an elongated flashback then didn't even show us Black killing the gods just all dialogue IIRC then wasted time having cast play video games instead of using that opportunity to develop the villains some more. Not to mention he completely sucked the mystery of Black away.

I agree with ekrolo2 in that Toyotaro would make a good editor, I am starting to get Scott Lobdell vibes from Toyotaro lately, good and interesting ideas but sadly lack execution.

[ekrolo2]

E-Even the *gulp* ending?

In comparison to other talk no jutsu, it's really not that bad. Obito and Madara are spectacularly worse.

[Basako]

I'm just rewatching the Vegeta-Black fight again. Wow, the choreography is amazing, so dynamic, one of the best fights. I wish the anime was that good. And we may get explanations about the power levels, there is a lot to read and we don't have the full translations yet.

And yet to see merged Zamasu, Goku and Trunks in action. I'm gonna enjoy next chapter too. Toyo is great!

[Abra kadabra]

I'm just rewatching the Vegeta-Black fight again. Wow, the choreography is amazing, so dynamic, one of the best fights. I wish the anime was that good. And we may get explanations about the power levels, there is a lot to read and we don't have the full translations yet.

And yet to see merged Zamasu, Goku and Trunks in action. I'm gonna enjoy next chapter too. Toyo is great!

Your positivity is inspiring

[Herms]

Text translation for ch.19:
[spoiler]Page 77
DBS ch.19: Another Zamasu

Sideways text: “Goku and Black finally come face-to-face!! A super-intense battle begins!!”
1
Goku: “[r] So you’re Black…[l] Or should I say ‘Zamasu’?!”
3
Goku: “[r] I know the whole story! [l] You used the Dragon Balls to switch bodies with me!”

Page 78
3
Black: “[l] You even know about that, huh?...”
4
Goku: “[r] Then it’s true! [l] Which means there must be a version of me in your body. What happened to him?!”
5
Black: “Don’t worry, I immediately killed him.”
6
Goku: “[r] …Damn. [l] Guess that means I gotta avenge my own death.”
7
Black: “[r] How’d you two get here? [l] This world’s versions of you should be long dead.”
Vegeta: “No reason for me to tell you that.”

Page 79
1
Black: “[r] What about Trunks?” [l] Is he with you?”
2
Vegeta: “[r] We’re not here to chat! [l] We’re here to kill you!”
3
Vegeta: “HAH!!!”

Page 80
5
Vegeta: “HAAAAH!!!”

Page 81
2
Goku: “Hey, Vegeta! We never picked who’d go first!!”
3
Vegeta: “Seeing his face, I couldn’t hold back any longer!”
4
Goku: “[t] Oh well… Guess it’d be tough to fight someone with my own face anyway.”
6
Black: “[r] Perfect. [l] I was getting bored just fighting Trunks all the time.”

Page 82
2
Vegeta: “Hmph! Blond hair, huh?”
Goku: “So he can also go Super Saiyan?”

Page 83
5
Black: “HAAH!!!!”

Page 84
N/A

Page 85
N/A

Page 86
3
Mai: “He’s…become a Super Saiyan!”
4
Trunks: “I haven’t seen that in a long time…”
Mai: “This means Black must be having a tough fight, right?”
5
Trunks: “[r] …But…[l] He’s stronger now than when he fought me…”
6
Mai: “[r] Even so, it looks like Vegeta’s got him on the ropes. [l] Goku’s there on the sidelines too. They should be fine.”

Page 87
3
Vegeta: “HAAAA!!!!”

Page 88
1
Vegeta: “DAAH!!!!”

Page 89
3
Vegeta: “[r] I see…[l] It figures you’d be too much for Trunks to handle.”
4
Black: “[r] To think that you’d be this strong…[l] Which era did you come from?!”
5
Vegeta: “Hmph, work it out for yourself.”
6
Vegeta: “[r] By the way, compared to that Kakarot over there, your Kakarot’s body must be from even further in the future. [l] …So can you can go Blue too?”
8
Vegeta: “How about we both use our strongest forms to finish this?”

Page 90
3
Vegeta: “[r] What’s wrong? Hurry up and transform. [l] I’m going to kill you.”
4
Black: “[l] I…can’t yet…”
6
Vegeta: “[r] You can’t? [l] Hahaha! I thought not.”

Page 91
1
Vegeta: “[r] That body was created through his long history of battle. [l] Right down to every nook and cranny in every cell.”
5
Vegeta: “For you it’s just secondhand goods…”

Page 92
1
Black: “[r] Nuh [l] Guoh!!”
2
Vegeta: “It’s got Saiyan cells that only a pure idiot like him can use…”
4
Vegeta: “To their full…”
5
Vegeta: “Potential!!!”

Page 93
3
Black: “Guuh…”
4
Goku: “Man…it’s like watching myself get beat up. Not sure how I feel about this…”
5
Black: “[r] Th…There’s no way…[l] I’m going to let you stop my plans!”
6
Black: “DAAA!!!”

Page 94
3
Zamasu: “[r] My apologies, Lord Gowasu. [l] I received an emergency summons from my Kaio successor.”
5
Gowasu: “[r] Oh Zamasu, you’re back. [l] We’ve got guests.”
6
Zamasu: “[r] Um…[l] Who might you be…?”

Page 95
1
Gowasu: “[r] This is Lord Beerus, Universe 7’s God of Destruction. [l] And his guide, the angel Lord Whis.”
2
Zamasu: “[r] It…It’s a pleasure to make your acquaintance. [l] I am Zamasu.”
3
Beerus: “Where were you just now?”
4
Zamasu: “As…As I said, there was some trouble in the northern part of this universe which I needed to attend to…
Beerus: “Were you with Zuno?”
6
Beerus: “You visited Zuno, the sage of Universe 7. Right?”
7
Zamasu: “Tru…Truly you know all. I’d expect no less of a God of Destruction…”
Beerus: “Why’d you ask Zuno all about the Dragon Balls and Goku?”
8
Zamasu: “[t] W…Well… I watched the tournament on GodTube…and it piqued my interest…”
9
Beerus: “[t] You also asked about gods and mortals switching bodies. What’s the big idea?”

Page 96
1
Zamasu: “[r] Well I…[l] I just wanted to know if it were possible…”
2
Gowasu: “[r] Zamasu! What’s going on? [l] Explain yourself!”
4
Gowasu: “Oh…The Kaioshin of Universe 7!”
5
Kaioshin: “Thank you for having me over the other day, Kaioshin of Universe 10.”
6
Beerus: “You’re late, Kaioshin.”
7
Kaioshin: “[r] My apologies. I needed to do some time-travel. [l] It ended up taking a while.”

Page 97
1
Gowasu: “[r] That’s a…Time Ring…! [l] What did you go see?”
2
Kaioshin: “Zamasu!”
3
Kaioshin: “I’ve seen your future.”
5
Gowasu: “The…The future...?”
Kaioshin: “Zamasu will go on to commit countless evil deeds.”
6
Gowasu: “[r] Evil deeds? [l] I can’t believe Zamasu would be capable of that…!”
7
Kaioshin: “Unfortunately Lord Beerus, it is exactly as we feared.”
Beerus: “Alright then…”

Page 98
1
Beerus: “[r] Now we’ve got a good reason to destroy you. [l] Not that a God of Destruction ever needs a reason to destroy.”
3
Gowasu: “[r] What’s wrong, Zamasu?! Say something! [l] There must be some mistake, right?”
5
Zamasu: “’Evil deeds’?”
6
Zamasu: “Surely you meant to say ‘righteous’?”

Page 99
3
Black: “[r] This world ruled by mortals is a mistake. [l] They inevitably fight war after war, destroying whole planets.”
4
Black: “[r] This world doesn’t need mortals! [l] Their very existence is evil!!!”
4
Black: “And by correcting this error, I am…”
5
Black: “righteous!!!”

Page 100
1
Vegeta: “What a load.”
4
Vegeta: “[r] I don’t care if you’re a god or Kaio. [l] It’s got nothing to do with us.”
5
Black: “Uguguh!!!”

Page 101
2
Vegeta: “I'll remove you from this world.”
3
Black: [l] I…I’ve defeated all of the gods…”
4
Goku: “But you didn’t beat the Gods of Destruction yourself, did you? You just killed all the Kaioshins so that both’d vanish.”
5
Goku: “You play dirty.”
6
Black: “[l] Never mind the means. What matters is that I’m the sole remaining god in this world.”

Page 102
1
Vegeta: “So?”
2
Black: “So, in this world…”
3
Black: “My word is law!!”
5
Black: “DAAAA!!!”

Page 103
3
Vegeta: “We don’t need a god pushing his own warped sense of justice on us.”
4
Black: “[r] Shut up…[l] Shut up, mortal!!”
5
Black: “Gods are absolute!!!”
6
Black: “[r] As a god, all my actions [l] Are righteous!!!”

Page 104
1
Beerus: “Those are just your own crazy ideas. There’s nothing righteous about them.”
3
Zamasu: “[r] If my plan is being carried out in the future…[l] Then obviously I can’t die here.”
5
Zamasu: “This is just where my plan begins.”

Page 105
1
Zamasu: “UOOOOOOOO!!!”
4
Beerus: “Now we see your true colors.”
5
Zamasu: “GUH!!!”

Page 106
1
Beerus: “Destroy!”

Page 107
1
Gowasu: “Za…Zamasu!!!”
2
Gowasu: “Wh-What’s going on...?”
Kaioshin: “Once I’ve taken Lord Beerus and Whis to Earth, I’ll come back and explain it all in detail.”
3
Whis: “Lord Gowasu, when selecting your next disciple, please judge by their heart rather than their power.”
4
Beerus: “[r] If you pick another crazy disciple, I’ll destroy you…[l] …OK, I can’t. But I’ll beat you up instead!”
5
Kaioshin: “Lord Beerus, we must hurry!”
7
Kaioshin: “There is something I must go report to Goku and the others!

Page 108
2
Trunks: “Goku!”
3
Goku: “What, you guys came too?!”
4
Trunks: “[r] Please listen! [l] Black’s Super Saiyan form has grown even stronger than before.”
5
Goku: “[r] Hmm…[l] Guess he’s been training too… Well, even so, it looks like there’s too big of a gap for him to win.”
6
Trunks: “[r] I’ve got a bad feeling about this…[l] We’d better finish him off soon.”
8
Goku: “[r] …OK. [l] Got it.”

Page 109
1
Goku: “Hey, Vegeta!”
3
Goku: “Never mind my turn! Just finish him off!”
4
Vegeta: “[r] Hmph! [l] I never intended to let you have a turn anyway!”
5
Goku: “Jerk!”

Page 110
1
Vegeta: “This’ll finish you!”
2
Vegeta: “Sorry, but your dreams must go unfulfilled!!”
3
Black: “[r] Da…[l] Damn it…”
4
Vegeta: “Take this!!!!”
5
Vegeta: “Final Flash!!!”

Page 111
N/A

Page 112
N/A

Page 113
4
Vegeta: “[l] Who’s that…?”
5
Beerus: “[r] What’s wrong, Kaioshin? [l] What’d you see in the future?”
Kaioshin: “Goku Black…I mean, Zamasu, wasn’t alone.”
6
Beerus: “What?!”
7
Whis: “[r] Someone is helping him...? [l] Is that what you mean?”
Kaioshin: “Yes.”
8
Kaioshin: “[r] He has…[l] The very best of helpers…!”

Page 114
1
Super mysterious person: “That was a close one.”
2
Super mysterious person: “But this will take you one step closer to your ultimate form, right?”
4
Super mysterious person: “HAH!!”
5
Goku: “Who’s there?! Some comrade of his?”
Trunks: “Black has a comrade?! I never knew about this…!!”
7
Vegeta: “Black’s recovered!”

Page 115
2
Black: “I owe you one..."
3
Super mysterious person: “If you die, it’ll all be for nothing.”
4
Zamasu [shock!]: “[r] After all, the Zero Mortals Plan…[l] Requires both of us.”
Sideways text: “With Goku Black on the ropes, Zamasu has stepped in to save him!! What’s going on in the future…?!”[/spoiler]