"Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

[Lord Beerus]

Assuming that Toyotarõ didn't blatantly messed up, which is the least likely scenario taking into account his concern for minimal strength logic. This can easily be explained as Vegeta keeping his Mutated SSJ2 transformation, which we know is far superior to SSJ3 Goku and therefore fits in the powerscale.
Seems to me like the same situation as SSJG, everyone thought it was gone and Toyotarõ brought it back.

Even if that's the cause, I have to say Toyotarõ messed up for not at the very least implying it. Since this is the first time Vegeta used it since the BoG arc. Have Goku comment on it or something.

Speedster already made a good point about how even if Vegeta was using his SSJ2 mutated form, it still doesn't make sense.

[LightBing]

Assuming that Toyotarõ didn't blatantly messed up, which is the least likely scenario taking into account his concern for minimal strength logic. This can easily be explained as Vegeta keeping his Mutated SSJ2 transformation, which we know is far superior to SSJ3 Goku and therefore fits in the powerscale.
Seems to me like the same situation as SSJG, everyone thought it was gone and Toyotarõ brought it back.

Even if that's the cause, I have to say Toyotarõ messed up for not at the very least implying it. Since this is the first time Vegeta used it since the BoG arc. Have Goku comment on it or something.

Speedster already made a good point about how even if Vegeta was using his SSJ2 mutated form, it still doesn't make sense.

But 10% Blue doesn't equal SSJ.
Even after Goku learns to counter the time-skip, Hit still advices Goku to go Blue which pretty much implies 10% Blue is greater than SSJ.
During the fight SSJ Goku does nothing to Hit, there's even a panel with both the fighters faces where Hit is grinning and Goku clearly struggling since he was getting pretty tired. While it does look like SSJ Goku performed better than Vegeta, both were still equally owed because they were weaker than Hit. Toyotarõ just portrayed the Goku fight in a better light, although it's clear that Goku was being toyed by Hit the whole time.

Finally, Whis explains that Hit's time-skip only works on those weaker or comparable to Hit himself. That's why SSJG which is stronger than 10% Blue breaks the technique. Immediately after hearing this Hit makes a shocked face and says the line "you're on a completely different level".

It goes something like this :
SSJB >>> SSJG >>>>>>>> SSJB(10%) >>>>>>>>>>>>SSJ

Vegeta's Mutated SSJ2 should be close to SSJB (10%) but not quite there yet. Between that gap we can fight SSJ2 Mastered, Black and SSJ3. In this chapter Trunks says that previously Black needed SSJ to defeat him, so Black in base should be that much stronger than SSJ2 Mastered and SSJ3.
Also isn't Black just SSJ in this chapter and not SSJ2? I'm actually not sure.

[alakazam^]

Dialogue is easy enough to handle, but this outline is vague enough from point a to point b where both parties can make anything up in-between those two points to fill in the blanks when they shouldn't have too. I'm willing to bet he writes his script just as vague and barebone as he did the RoF script which probably explains why there are such considerable discrepancies between the manga and anime, it gets even harder when he tells these guys "Meh, change the story and throw in your own ideas as well, k brah?"

How vague and barebones can it be if it was said he took several months to write it?

Simple math, the events of the 28th Budokai take place 10 years after the defeat of Buu, Pan is 4 years old during this time, meaning she was born 4 y meaning six years after the defeat of Kid Buu. Episode 1 state six months and some time later went by, the Tarble special takes place 2 years after Kid Buu, BoGs saga 4 years after Kid Buu, RoF 5-6 years after Kid Buu.

You can't mix the movies with Super and the OVA. As far as I'm aware, there's nothing saying Battle of Gods takes place four years after Boo besides Toei's timeline that doesn't even make sense with Super. Then, between Pan's birth, Bra's birth, Oob's birth, Dragon Ball wishes and Bloomer's "five year" line in the manga, something has already retconned the end of the manga.

[DBZGTKOSDH]

Assuming that Toyotarõ didn't blatantly messed up, which is the least likely scenario taking into account his concern for minimal strength logic. This can easily be explained as Vegeta keeping his Mutated SSJ2 transformation, which we know is far superior to SSJ3 Goku and therefore fits in the powerscale.
Seems to me like the same situation as SSJG, everyone thought it was gone and Toyotarõ brought it back.

Even if that's the cause, I have to say Toyotarõ messed up for not at the very least implying it. Since this is the first time Vegeta used it since the BoG arc. Have Goku comment on it or something.

Speedster already made a good point about how even if Vegeta was using his SSJ2 mutated form, it still doesn't make sense.

But Speedster is wrong, Tokitobashi does work on fighters stronger than Hit.

[DBZ Macky]

Also isn't Black just SSJ in this chapter and not SSJ2? I'm actually not sure.

Probably just a regular Super Saiyan.
He does have lightning though, for most of the fight.

See, this is why I absolutely despise the SS2 design, the only distinguishing factor is the unreliable lightning.
Super Vegetto had lightning too but he was just a regular Super Saiyan (or was he?).

Heck, even Nappa had lightning in that one panel.

[Nejishiki]

It should be pointed out that only the Super anime called Vegeta's rage against Beerus a mutation and it was done by the narrator. In the movie, Vegeta just got a giant and drastic rage boost. I don't know what the Super manga said about it or how it was presented.

The manga continuity has Kuririn question Vegeta's strength and Beerus concluding he's still no Super Saiyan God. That's all there is to be said about Vegeta's outburst for the entirety of the story.

Probably just a regular Super Saiyan.
He does have lightning though, for most of the fight.

See, this is why I absolutely despise the SS2 design, the only distinguishing factor is the unreliable lightning.
Super Vegetto had lightning too but he was just a regular Super Saiyan (or was he?).

Heck, even Nappa had lightning in that one panel.

Vegetto is a normal Super Saiyan. You had it right.

[HeroR]

It should be pointed out that only the Super anime called Vegeta's rage against Beerus a mutation and it was done by the narrator. In the movie, Vegeta just got a giant and drastic rage boost. I don't know what the Super manga said about it or how it was presented.

The manga continuity has Kuririn question Vegeta's strength and Beerus concluding he's still no Super Saiyan God. That's all there is to be said about Vegeta's outburst for the entirety of the story.

Probably just a regular Super Saiyan.
He does have lightning though, for most of the fight.

See, this is why I absolutely despise the SS2 design, the only distinguishing factor is the unreliable lightning.
Super Vegetto had lightning too but he was just a regular Super Saiyan (or was he?).

Heck, even Nappa had lightning in that one panel.

Vegetto is a normal Super Saiyan. You had it right.

Thanks for the information. Oddly, Rage Vegeta wasn't treated as a big deal in the manga.

[Hugo Boss]

Assuming that Toyotarõ didn't blatantly messed up, which is the least likely scenario taking into account his concern for minimal strength logic. This can easily be explained as Vegeta keeping his Mutated SSJ2 transformation, which we know is far superior to SSJ3 Goku and therefore fits in the powerscale.
Seems to me like the same situation as SSJG, everyone thought it was gone and Toyotarõ brought it back.

Even if that's the cause, I have to say Toyotarõ messed up for not at the very least implying it. Since this is the first time Vegeta used it since the BoG arc. Have Goku comment on it or something.

Speedster already made a good point about how even if Vegeta was using his SSJ2 mutated form, it still doesn't make sense.

But Speedster is wrong, Tokitobashi does work on fighters stronger than Hit.

Yeah, it makes sense that it works on people who have battle power greater than his, but it seems tokitobashi has a separated level above his own battle power, which is only surpassed by Super Saiyan God, according to Whis.

For example, ATK/DEF and Sp.ATK/Sp.DEF attributes. SS Goku has ATK points higher than Hit's but tokitobashi is much greater than SS Goku's Sp.DEF. SSB Vegeta at 10% has all attributes much greater than SS Goku but its Sp.DEF still is something tokitobashi can overcome.

[SSJ Human]

I never would have thought the anime would make the manga suffer, but Super's been proving that as a new feat to break. The whole Future Trunks arc feels incredibly rushed in the manga to the point where I'm really hoping Chapter 20 isn't just everything from the last five episodes of the arc in the anime merged into one chapter. Toyotaro would be better off cutting out Merged Zamasu but seems unlikely given the whole everything has to have the same ending.

[Doctor.]

I never would have thought the anime would make the manga suffer, but Super's been proving that as a new feat to break. The whole Future Trunks arc feels incredibly rushed in the manga to the point where I'm really hoping Chapter 20 isn't just everything from the last five episodes of the arc in the anime merged into one chapter. Toyotaro would be better off cutting out Merged Zamasu but seems unlikely given the whole everything has to have the same ending.

I don't see how the anime is to blame for Toyotaro being unable to properly pace his chapters. When the man wastes half a chapter in a meaningless karting gag and an entire chapter on Vegeta's beatdown on Black when a few pages would have sufficed, then he's clearly the one to blame.

[ChronoTwigger]

I think, after reading the last chapters, that two things happened.
A: Previous arcs in the manga were well received as the show was a little controversial. They were used as reference. Now, Zamasu arc if not 100% perfect, was at least engaging. That's why the manga seems inferior.

B: the "promotional" nature of the manga is rising, more and more. It's a quick resume of the show with some extra insertions to justify the price. It remind me the various "promo" manga of Pokemon published in CoroCoro magazine, where things are added like a speaking Clefairy. Just an engage product in a broader franchise.

[Jinzoningen MULE]

I have a feeling that if he did decide to skip the carting game and Vegeta bit, everyone would go back to complaining about how "It seems like he's following a checklist" or "why should I read this when I can just watch the anime?". It's obvious to me that he's doing his best to make this product something worth existing. Whether or not you agree with that, keep in mind; Toyotaro's manga is promotional, it's not prioritized. It's not even the only thing he's working on, and he cranks out 40 pages a month, that's a lot! You absolutely can't expect a manga with less pages per month than Toriyama's to compete with an anime that moves 5 times quicker than the original. Yet Toyotaro does, and like it or not, he does a great job at having things move along while letting the manga keep an identity of its own. In fact, if the Zamasu Arc were being made in movie format (they all should be, but let's not go down that rabbit hole), I'd have the movie based off Toyotaro's interpretation any day of the week, with some tweaks made, of course. That's worth something, and it irks me to see the work get verbally stomped on by people who wouldn't know how to do a better job if you gave them an entire lifetime.

[Ki Breaker]

I have a feeling that if he did decide to skip the carting game and Vegeta bit, everyone would go back to complaining about how "It seems like he's following a checklist" or "why should I read this when I can just watch the anime?". It's obvious to me that he's doing his best to make this product something worth existing. Whether or not you agree with that, keep in mind; Toyotaro's manga is promotional, it's not prioritized. It's not even the only thing he's working on, and he cranks out 40 pages a month, that's a lot! You absolutely can't expect a manga with less pages per month than Toriyama's to compete with an anime that moves 5 times quicker than the original. Yet Toyotaro does, and like it or not, he does a great job at having things move along while letting the manga keep an identity of its own. In fact, if the Zamasu Arc were being made in movie format (they all should be, but let's not go down that rabbit hole), I'd have the movie based off Toyotaro's interpretation any day of the week, with some tweaks made, of course. That's worth something, and it irks me to see the work get verbally stomped on by people who wouldn't know how to do a better job if you gave them an entire lifetime.

Pretty much, these are facts right here

[simtek34]

Manga Chapter 15 from Viz is here! They use Majin Boo and not Djinn Boo. But they still use Lord of Lords for East Kaiōshin. I'm really digging the alt logo though. It took a while of getting used to.

Yet, they still use Hercule though...

[Jinzoningen MULE]

Manga Chapter 15 from Viz is here! They use Majin Boo and not Djinn Boo. But they still use Lord of Lords for East Kaiōshin. I'm really digging the alt logo though. It took a while of getting used to.

Yet, they still use Hercule though...

They already used Majin Boo in an earlier chapter, the one with the farting gag, so we already knew that. To be honest, I'd rather them use Djinn for consistency's sake. Either way, I like the translation work so far.

[Duo]

I have a feeling that if he did decide to skip the carting game and Vegeta bit, everyone would go back to complaining about how "It seems like he's following a checklist" or "why should I read this when I can just watch the anime?". It's obvious to me that he's doing his best to make this product something worth existing. Whether or not you agree with that, keep in mind; Toyotaro's manga is promotional, it's not prioritized. It's not even the only thing he's working on, and he cranks out 40 pages a month, that's a lot! You absolutely can't expect a manga with less pages per month than Toriyama's to compete with an anime that moves 5 times quicker than the original. Yet Toyotaro does, and like it or not, he does a great job at having things move along while letting the manga keep an identity of its own. In fact, if the Zamasu Arc were being made in movie format (they all should be, but let's not go down that rabbit hole), I'd have the movie based off Toyotaro's interpretation any day of the week, with some tweaks made, of course. That's worth something, and it irks me to see the work get verbally stomped on by people who wouldn't know how to do a better job if you gave them an entire lifetime.

This entire post cannot possibly be re-stated enough. Props to you from the bottom of my heart.

[MathSSJ]

and it irks me to see the work get verbally stomped on by people who wouldn't know how to do a better job if you gave them an entire lifetime.

That's not how criticism works...

[TheMikado]

and it irks me to see the work get verbally stomped on by people who wouldn't know how to do a better job if you gave them an entire lifetime.

That's not how criticism works...

The problem is that Toyotaro's work isn't technically bad at all by any standards. People are confusing preference with quality. The equivalent of calling Picasso a horrible artist because you don't like his style of art. That's why it's so infuriating because it simply comes off as immensely ignorant. There are certainly legitimate critiques, but calling the work as a whole trash is beyond a stretch.

[LightBing]

Some people here can't hide their bias against the manga. The manga is far from perfect and we can spend some time talking about it's flaws and weaknesses, but the way some people word their critiques and sometimes even create artificial problems, makes it clear they don't want to have a discussion and are into bashing mode.

One criticism I don't quite understand is Vegeta beating up Black in this chapter.
Vegeta is the second most important character in Super and is having it's first fight of the arc, against the main villain. A fight that is used to further show Black's development power wise(he needed SSJ to beat Trunks before) and how both characters view the situation. Together with more of Black's personality and his plans.
All taking us to a cliffhanger, which because we already know about it lacks any impact. If we didn't, I'm certain it wouldn't be something people didn't even cared to comment about.

So with all of the above, why is it a problem that almost a full chapter is dedicated to it? The fight isn't about "pleasing Vegeta fanboys" like some people like to reduce it to. It's used as a mechanism to further the story.

[TheMikado]

Honestly I think the big gripe is the powerscaling which I would say is part of the problem in the latest chapter. Right now we have no idea how or why Vegeta was able to wreck Black so easily. If it's something that was to be explained in the next chapter then the foreshadowing of it was poorly executed. Anyway I think this is a chapter that will probably need to be taken in context with the surrounding chapters to make sense.