Super Exciting Guide: Character Volume

[Dayspring]

As for genderless, looking like a female means nothing; Namek people look like men and are genderless. To me, genderless means the crotch is smooth like a Ken Doll.

I agree that they can just simply look like men or women without having any actual gender (since they don't reproduce sexually), though it is interesting that Elder Kaioshin is attracted to women, but not men.

Maybe the witch was actully male? Or a lesbian?

@Herms: Thanks, but just because Kibito's name is a pun on attendant doesn't quite answer my question. It could be argued that Shin-jin become Kibito before becoming Kaioshin. Meaning, since a golden fruit Shin-jin wouldn't have the time to study etc, on Kaishin after Boo, Kibito would get his training "on-the-job."

It's not just that that's where his name comes from: Toriyama said that Kibito was Kaioshin's attendant in Forever's name pun guide. Since Toriyama doesn't say anything about Golden-Fruit Shin-jin serving as attendants before becoming full Kaioshin, and since with Mister Popo (who refers to himself as Kami's tsukibito) we already have an example in the series of a god's attendant whose job is to simply serve the god and has no chance of becoming a god himself, I don't see any reason to think Kibito is a Kaioshin-in-training.

I guess. I really wish he was more though, since he looks more like a golden-fruit Shin-jin than a regular fruit one.

[Herms]

Also, I was thinking about Shin-Jin's lifespan. It was said to be around 75,000 years of life. But in manga, one of Yemma's attendants said that he successfully completed his journey on Serprent Road a few millions years ago and recieved North Kaio's training. So if it was really millions years ago, wouldn't North Kaio be nonexistant at that time because of what Toriyama has stated about Shin-Jin's lifespan? Unless Shin-Jin becoming Kaios have extended their lifespan much longer.

Well first, the oni tells Goku that Enma Daio is the only person to reach Kaio's planet in the last 100 million years. He doesn't say anything about when Enma Daio actually went there (in the anime, it's said to be 500 years ago during the Serpent Princess episode). Second, Toriyama says that new Kaio are chosen whenever one of the current Kaio reaches the end of their lifespan. So if Enma Daio did training under Kaio millions of years ago, it would just mean that he trained under a previous Kaio than the current one.

You know, I never thought about it before, but why would Enma train under North Kaio in particular? I guess it's because at the time Toriyama hadn't thought up the concept of North/South/East/West Kaios (Kaio first mentions that he is the North Kaio when talking to Saichourou during the battle with Freeza), and North Kaio was the one and only. I suppose Enma could have still gone and trained under all the Kaio though.

You meant Planet Kaioshin, not Kaishin?

No, Planet Kaishin (kai="world", shin="core") is the home planet of the Kaio and Kaioshin that Toriyama introduces in his SEG-Character Volume interview. The "shin" in "Kaioshin" is different from the one in Kaishin; it means "god" rather than "core". It's possible that Toriyama chose "Shin-jin" as the name of the race as a pun on how "shin" can mean both "god" and "core". It could even be how he came up with the whole concept of them being born from fruit in the first place.

"Lottery" is not a metaphor for "election," and "fruit" is not a metaphor for the Christian Tree of Knowledge.

A-ha, now we know the real reason Adam and Eve were kicked out of Eden: they ate the golden fruit that was going to give birth to the Shin-jin meant to replace all the Kaioshin that were killed/absorbed by Buu! It all makes sense now. Sort of.

[Saiyan-Professor]

Can someone please answer my question? If the Shin-jin are the “core” or “pit” people what would the English name be? I recommended the “Pitians”. In addition, if Shin-jin is genderless I guess the whole premise behind Dragonball AF is gone by the wayside. I guess someone needs to contact Toyble about the new guide.

[DragonBalllKaiHD]

Can someone please answer my question? If the Shin-jin are the “core” or “pit” people what would the English name be? I recommended the “Pitians”. In addition, if Shin-jin is genderless I guess the whole premise behind Dragonball AF is gone by the wayside. I guess someone needs to contact Toyble about the new guide.

Toriyama never stated that Kaioshin are genderless. Just Shin-jin. Have you even noticed West Kaioshin's bust?

Edit: The English name Pitians is more reasonable since it is deprived from core and pit.

[Bussani]

DragonballlKaiHD does have a point, but he really should stop double posting.

We don't know for sure that Shin-jin always look like Kaio and Kaioshin, or if they become that way. When I first read it, the way it says the Shin-jin are born genderless implied to me that they might be like proto-forms, which would transform into something else later. That was just my first impression, but judging by how Herms says the guide's pictures are presented, I would guess that after being born from these fruits they take the shapes we know them as.

As for genderless, looking like a female means nothing; Namek people look like men and are genderless. To me, genderless means the crotch is smooth like a Ken Doll.

Yeah, this is exactly what I meant. There's a difference between physical sexuality and which gender you identify with, if you can call it that. For a race without genders they probably don't worry about such labels, and just dress and act however comes naturally to them. Sounds pretty enlightened, to me.

Edit:

Toriyama never stated that Kaioshin are genderless. Just Shin-jin. Have you even noticed West Kaioshin's bust?

Actually, no. I'll check my copy of the manga, but in this picture...



Edit 2: Actually, I have no idea where she appears in the manga.

[Saiyan-Professor]

...Yeah, this is exactly what I meant. There's a difference between physical sexuality and which gender you identify with, if you can call it that. For a race without genders they probably don't worry about such labels, and just dress and act however comes naturally to them. Sounds pretty enlightened, to me...

How is that an enlightened state of being? To be enlightened is interconnected with the cognitive processes, they have no choice in the matter, the Shin-jin are born that way.

[Bussani]

...Yeah, this is exactly what I meant. There's a difference between physical sexuality and which gender you identify with, if you can call it that. For a race without genders they probably don't worry about such labels, and just dress and act however comes naturally to them. Sounds pretty enlightened, to me...

How is that an enlightened state of being? To be enlightened is interconnected with the cognitive processes, they have no choice in the matter, the Shin-jin are born that way.

Just being yourself without fear of labels. Sounds like a good way to live, to me.

[DragonBalllKaiHD]

DragonballlKaiHD does have a point, but he really should stop double posting.

We don't know for sure that Shin-jin always look like Kaio and Kaioshin, or if they become that way. When I first read it, the way it says the Shin-jin are born genderless implied to me that they might be like proto-forms, which would transform into something else later. That was just my first impression, but judging by how Herms says the guide's pictures are presented, I would guess that after being born from these fruits they take the shapes we know them as.

As for genderless, looking like a female means nothing; Namek people look like men and are genderless. To me, genderless means the crotch is smooth like a Ken Doll.

Yeah, this is exactly what I meant. There's a difference between physical sexuality and which gender you identify with, if you can call it that. For a race without genders they probably don't worry about such labels, and just dress and act however comes naturally to them. Sounds pretty enlightened, to me.

Edit:

Toriyama never stated that Kaioshin are genderless. Just Shin-jin. Have you even noticed West Kaioshin's bust?

Actually, no. I'll check my copy of the manga, but in this picture...



Edit 2: Actually, I have no idea where she appears in the manga.

Sorry if I double posted. Will not happen again.

[Saiyan-Professor]

...Yeah, this is exactly what I meant. There's a difference between physical sexuality and which gender you identify with, if you can call it that. For a race without genders they probably don't worry about such labels, and just dress and act however comes naturally to them. Sounds pretty enlightened, to me...

How is that an enlightened state of being? To be enlightened is interconnected with the cognitive processes, they have no choice in the matter, the Shin-jin are born that way.

Just being yourself without fear of labels. Sounds like a good way to live, to me.

I understand that but to be enlightened is something someone aims for, one has to put their minds towards achieving it, in the Shin-jin case, they have no choice in the matter of being genderless. Unless Toriyama meant that, the whole genderless thing is the Shin-jin’s philosophy.

[Dayspring]

You know, I never thought about it before, but why would Enma train under North Kaio in particular? I guess it's because at the time Toriyama hadn't thought up the concept of North/South/East/West Kaios (Kaio first mentions that he is the North Kaio when talking to Saichourou during the battle with Freeza), and North Kaio was the one and only. I suppose Enma could have still gone and trained under all the Kaio though.

I see Dr Slump Hell as being a pre-cursor to Dragonball Hell, in that it used to be that everybody got to keep their bodies. This would cause problems fairly frequently, so Enma would train under Kaio in order to use the Genkidama's evil-attacking nature against the worst souls. Sometime between Senbei and Goku's trips to the afterlife, Enma decided this was inefficient, and made it so nobody got to keep their souls.

"Lottery" is not a metaphor for "election," and "fruit" is not a metaphor for the Christian Tree of Knowledge.

A-ha, now we know the real reason Adam and Eve were kicked out of Eden: they ate the golden fruit that was going to give birth to the Shin-jin meant to replace all the Kaioshin that were killed/absorbed by Buu! It all makes sense now. Sort of.

No, no. Adam and Eve were gorillas whose decendants evolved into mankind over the millennia, remember? It was Enma who ate the golden fruit, by having the tree transplanted into the first quadrant of Hell, as we see in that filler episode when Goku fell off Snake Way (the one guarded by Goz and Mez).

@Prof: I think "Corians" or "Coreans" works best. "Pits" in fruit refer to the seeds themselves, not the whole core. Personally, I'd rather just call them "The Shin."

[Herms]

Can someone please answer my question? If the Shin-jin are the “core” or “pit” people what would the English name be? I recommended the “Pitians”.

Well, there's many different names you could use that would be equally correct. I kind of like "Pit People" myself.

In addition, if Shin-jin is genderless I guess the whole premise behind Dragonball AF is gone by the wayside. I guess someone needs to contact Toyble about the new guide.

I suppose West Kaioshin could have used some magical means to enable her to bear Goku's child. She is a god and all. Anyway, I think it's too late for Toyble to stop his fan-manga, just because it contradicts new information that he had no way of knowing when he began it.

Can someone please answer my question? If the Shin-jin are the “core” or “pit” people what would the English name be? I recommended the “Pitians”. In addition, if Shin-jin is genderless I guess the whole premise behind Dragonball AF is gone by the wayside. I guess someone needs to contact Toyble about the new guide.

Toriyama never stated that Kaioshin are genderless. Just Shin-jin. Have you even noticed West Kaioshin's bust? :lol:

Kaioshin are Shin-jin, just a specail kind. The diagram showing Kaio coming from normal fruit and Kaioshin coming from golden fruit labels the both of them as being "neither men nor women". West Kaioshin is never seen in the manga, so you could chock her female appearance up as just another anime contradiction. But really, it's not like her looking like a woman is any more contradictory or problematic than East Kaioshin looking like a man.

[Saiyan-Professor]

...@Prof: I think "Corians" or "Coreans" works best. "Pits" in fruit refer to the seeds themselves, not the whole core. Personally, I'd rather just call them "The Shin."

I wonder what the official Daizenshuu EX spelling/pronunciation will be.

[Bussani]

How is that an enlightened state of being? To be enlightened is interconnected with the cognitive processes, they have no choice in the matter, the Shin-jin are born that way.

Just being yourself without fear of labels. Sounds like a good way to live, to me.

I understand that but to be enlightened is something someone aims for, one has to put their minds towards achieving it, in the Shin-jin case, they have no choice in the matter of being genderless. Unless Toriyama meant that, the whole genderless thing is the Shin-jin’s philosophy.

I didn't say that the Shin-jin themselves were enlightened for being this way, just that their way of living sounded like an enlightened way to live.

[Herms]

Maybe we should just call them "Coreys"? I'm sure MajinVejitaXV would like that.

[DragonBalllKaiHD]

...@Prof: I think "Corians" or "Coreans" works best. "Pits" in fruit refer to the seeds themselves, not the whole core. Personally, I'd rather just call them "The Shin."

I wonder what the official Daizenshuu EX spelling/pronunciation will be.

The Super Exciting Guide is like Daizenshuu so it is offical. Shin-Jin is a simple pronuncation. You have heard East kaioshin's ring name when he entered Tenkaichi Tournament? Just add Jin.

[Dayspring]

In addition, if Shin-jin is genderless I guess the whole premise behind Dragonball AF is gone by the wayside. I guess someone needs to contact Toyble about the new guide.

I suppose West Kaioshin could have used some magical means to enable her to bear Goku's child. She is a god and all. Anyway, I think it's too late for Toyble to stop his fan-manga, just because it contradicts new information that he had no way of knowing when he began it.

Is it expressly mentioned in AF that she and Goku did it? I figured she used either her own magic or Cold's super-science to make a clone, using herself and Goku as genetic stock.

Can someone please answer my question? If the Shin-jin are the “core” or “pit” people what would the English name be? I recommended the “Pitians”. In addition, if Shin-jin is genderless I guess the whole premise behind Dragonball AF is gone by the wayside. I guess someone needs to contact Toyble about the new guide.

Toriyama never stated that Kaioshin are genderless. Just Shin-jin. Have you even noticed West Kaioshin's bust?

Kaioshin are Shin-jin, just a specail kind. The diagram showing Kaio coming from normal fruit and Kaioshin coming from golden fruit labels the both of them as being "neither men nor women". West Kaioshin is never seen in the manga, so you could chock her female appearance up as just another anime contradiction. But really, it's not like her looking like a woman is any more contradictory or problematic than East Kaioshin looking like a man.

Even the female Kaio isn't shown in the manga, so it's possible they're like Nameks in that they all look male.

[Saiyan-Professor]

I wonder has Toriyama been purposefully screwing with Toei and the things they created in light of the recent information in the guide and the alternate design of the Yardratians in DBO.

Maybe we should just call them "Coreys"? I'm sure MajinVejitaXV would like that.

The ego is big enough already.

[Dayspring]

I wonder has Toriyama been purposefully screwing with Toei and the things they created in light of the recent information in the guide and the alternate design of the Yardratians in DBO.

Didn't this design predate the anime Yardratians? Granted, not officially, since they predated it in Awawa World (supposedly) and in Toccio The Angel; the rest came after the series ended.

And yes, I did totally forget where I was going with this post.

[Saiyan-Professor]

I wonder has Toriyama been purposefully screwing with Toei and the things they created in light of the recent information in the guide and the alternate design of the Yardratians in DBO.

Didn't this design predate the anime Yardratians? Granted, not officially, since they predated it in Awawa World (supposedly) and in Toccio The Angel; the rest came after the series ended.

And yes, I did totally forget where I was going with this post.

I know the design is an old concept but to go and slap the label “the people of Yardrat” on them when a specific design was made for that race by Toei seems like he is sort of jacking with them. Now we have genderless Shins/Corians when there was a (cute) female one in the anime running around slap boxing with Majin Buu.

[DragonBalllKaiHD]

It's not hurt to have a female Kaioshin part of genderless family.