Kai Episode 3 (19 April 2009)

Post by **SaiyaJedi** » Sun Apr 19, 2009 5:08 am

Didn't see this topic made yet, so here it is. Mike's busy with work stuff, or so I hear.

General Discussion for DragonBall Kai episode 3, aired 19 April 2009

「命をかけた闘い！悟空とピッコロ捨て身の猛攻」
Inochi o kaketa tatakai! Gokû to Pikkoro sutemi no môkô
A battle for their lives! Goku and Piccolo risk life and limb in an all-out assault

Chat away...!

Son Wukong · Post by **Son Wukong** » Sun Apr 19, 2009 5:22 am

Ah, so el maestro does check out the forum also!

Off to watch episode 3!

Saiyavenger2941 · Post by **Saiyavenger2941** » Sun Apr 19, 2009 5:26 am

Here's a good alternate title for this episode.

"The One That Made The Fans On KanzenshuuEX Shit Bricks".

Dogasu · Post by **Dogasu** » Sun Apr 19, 2009 6:13 am

I'm just gonna copy and paste what I posted on other forums:

Dogasu wrote:So the third episode just finished airing, finishing off the Goku vs. Raditz fight.

I really do feel like Kai is too fast paced. Watching the Raditz fight condensed into one episode made everything feel too rushed, something you wouldn't think would ever be an issue with any show that has the words Dragon Ball in the title.

And my memory may be bad, but it looks like Toei's censoring out a lot of the blood. They're leaving some of it in, but I remember there being a LOT more blood when Piccolo's Makankosappo hits Raditz and Goku at the end.

Also...hooray for re-coloring Vegeta's armor! After the last episode, I didn't think they'd do it, but it looks like I was wrong.

The preview for the next episode shows Goku running on Snake Way and some of the Gohan training stuff. I wonder if Toei will correct Enma's "WELL COME" sign.

I found this image online that points out some of the edits made to the episode. They've got some Saban-level stuff going on here.

I've heard theories that say that Toei might be over-editing the show to make it easier to sell to FUNi (minimal editing and all that). Thoughts?

DemonRin · Post by **DemonRin** » Sun Apr 19, 2009 6:27 am

The "Easier to sell to FUNi' is Bull.
FUNi has been getting Uncut Dragonball for a while and love it, they don't edit it at all on their DVDs, they know it's a selling point, that's why their new One Piece dub uses swears, because they know a more "Mature" show sells. if it wasn't a Selling point, they'd still be doing "Edited" DVDs.
I'll say it again, Anyone who has been watching One Piece and reading the manga knows there have been instances in which Toei has been cutting down on the violence and some profanity. Violence and profanity that WOULD HAVE been allowed back in the days of DBZ. It's obvious Japanese TV standards have just gotten a bit more strict, and Toei has to account for that.
I don't blame Saban and FUNi AT ALL for ANY of their Violence Edits back in the Saban era, in fact nobody should. (Except the certain ones for their sheer ridiculousness... like HFIL...couldn't they just have removed the words entirely and called it the "Underworld" or something?!) DBZ was being shown on syndicated TV, they HAD to remove that stuff in order to get it on TV. The Dumb thing was that they NEVER DID AN UNCUT RELEASE OF THOSE EPISODES!! You had to WAIT till the licenses ran out for FUNi to do an uncut release. When FUNi picked up One Piece, NOBODY cared about the Edits on the TV version because we KNEW we were getting uncut DVDs. THAT was the problem, not the edits themselves but the fact that FUNi weren't doing uncut DVDs (yet).
Toei's ALREADY COVERED THIS ONE!! You can buy the whole series on uncut DVD RIGHT NOW if you want. (In Japan...)
Yes the edits are kindof a letdown. Except the Lack of blood though actually... the Manga actually has this little blood too, and you'd THINK a high-intensity burning attack would seal the wound, meaning by all logic it SHOULDN'T be bleeding... Just watch a Lightsaber fight in Star Wars... but Fuji TV has obviously tightened up their broadcast standards. It kinda sucks, but it's nothing worth complaining about, One Piece fans have been putting up with it for the entire series. At one point a character cuts off his own Leg and EATS IT!! Fuji forced Toei to add a scene where it gets cut off by something else off-frame to lessen the gruesome factor. They edited out a Middle Finger in the newest episode, something I KNOW anime used to be able to do. It sucks, but it's happening to every show on TV nowadays. Deal with it. The One Piece Fans have been, and we're just fine.

On the Plus side, the Fixed colors make the Vegeta fangirl in me squeal with joy!!.

And anyone complaining about Nappa's colors... that's just ridiculous. Nappa's colors are correct, they're just a darker shade of his normal ones.
Example:

Pic of Nappa from Later. Did NOTHING to the image except select just his Armor and turned down the brightness of the color. looks damn close doesn't it?

sangofe · Post by **sangofe** » Sun Apr 19, 2009 6:37 am

If this will be the trend for Dragonball Kai, I won't care spending my time on it.

DemonRin · Post by **DemonRin** » Sun Apr 19, 2009 6:46 am

sangofe wrote:If this will be the trend for Dragonball Kai, I won't care spending my time on it.

Well, this is the only time we see a huge hole in someone when it didn't have a horn or a hand in it... or the character didn't just reform it two seconds later like it wasn't a big deal... I don't think a trend by definition can be only one thing...

Super Ghost Kamikaze · Post by **Super Ghost Kamikaze** » Sun Apr 19, 2009 6:50 am

DemonRin wrote:
sangofe wrote:If this will be the trend for Dragonball Kai, I won't care spending my time on it.
Well, this is the only time we see a huge hole in someone when it didn't have a horn or a hand in it... or the character didn't just reform it two seconds later like it wasn't a big deal... I don't think a trend by definition can be only one thing...

It seems obvious to me that they mean the general subject of violence censorship. Considering ALL the blood and all pooled blood was erased, after all.

I'm going to have to see Nappa's Kai colors after landing on earth before I decide whether or not they "clash", but really it looks fine just glancing at it right now.

Dogasu · Post by **Dogasu** » Sun Apr 19, 2009 6:59 am

DemonRin wrote:The "Easier to sell to FUNi' is Bull.

I don't think so. While I'm not going to go so far as to say "that's the reason it's being edited," it makes a certain amount of sense.

Yes, FUNi edited the series before. But companies aren't as willing to throw thousands of dollars into editing a show in order for it to get a TV-Y7 rating anymore. Now, in 2009, if the show can't be aired with a little clean up here and a little snippet there, most companies won't bother.

Shows that require less editing are just more attractive to companies these days.

Of course, Cartoon Network seems to have stopped caring about Japanese cartoons and is all about Canadian animation now, so whatever.

It's obvious Japanese TV standards have just gotten a bit more strict, and Toei has to account for that.

They have gotten more strict. Still, even with stuff not being as liberal as it used to be, One Piece is still allowed to get away with decent amounts of blood flowing. Maybe not as much as the manga, no, but the characters still bleed buckets during the big fights.

I mean, it looks like Goku is dying from a bruise. Not even mid-90s Saban was that tight.

DemonRin · Post by **DemonRin** » Sun Apr 19, 2009 7:00 am

Super Ghost Kamikaze wrote:It seems obvious to me that they mean the general subject of violence censorship. Considering ALL the blood and all pooled blood was erased, after all.

Was that cranberry Juice coming out of Raditz' Mouth?!...

Saiyavenger2941 · Post by **Saiyavenger2941** » Sun Apr 19, 2009 7:03 am

DemonRin wrote:
Super Ghost Kamikaze wrote:It seems obvious to me that they mean the general subject of violence censorship. Considering ALL the blood and all pooled blood was erased, after all.
Was that cranberry Juice coming out of Raditz' Mouth?!...

There's a difference between a busted lip and coughed-up blood from internal injuries, though.

A busted lip isn't something the bigwigs have a problem with. It's the internal bleeding that they did, so they censored the rest of the blood, to make it look like just a busted lip.

DemonRin · Post by **DemonRin** » Sun Apr 19, 2009 7:07 am

Dogasu wrote:I don't think so. While I'm not going to go so far as to say "that's the reason it's being edited," it makes a certain amount of sense.

Yes, FUNi edited the series before. But companies aren't as willing to throw thousands of dollars into editing a show in order for it to get a TV-Y7 rating anymore. Now, in 2009, if the show can't be aired with a little clean up here and a little snippet there, most companies won't bother.

Shows that require less editing are just more attractive to companies these days.

Of course, Cartoon Network seems to have stopped caring about Japanese cartoons and is all about Canadian animation now, so whatever.

Nope, argument doesn't work at all.
FUNi doesn't make buckets of money from TV airings, it's all the DVDs. Why do you think FUNi stopped selling "Edited" DVDs of pretty much EVERY show they sell? Because Edited DVDs DONT SELL!!

Dogasu wrote:They have gotten more strict. Still, even with stuff not being as liberal as it used to be, One Piece is still allowed to get away with decent amounts of blood flowing. Maybe not as much as the manga, no, but the characters still bleed buckets during the big fights.

I mean, it looks like Goku is dying from a bruise. Not even mid-90s Saban was that tight.

It's specific things. Like, when Naruto first aired in America, Viz was told they could show as much blood they wanted as long as it was flowing, but Pools of Blood were a no-go (I hate Naruto BTW, it just makes for a good example right now)
It's probably the same thing here, they can show lots of blood, but certain things like Gaping Holes are a no-no.

Saiyavenger2941 wrote:There's a difference between a busted lip and coughed-up blood from internal injuries, though.

But he said All of the Blood XD

Also, I doubt they were editing the blood for content actually, at least not directly. It was a practical edit based on the OTHER edit they were making. They changed the Gaping hole to a Burn. If it's no longer a HUGE open wound, but a burn then it actually would make no sense for blood to be coming out of it. Burns don't bleed.

However, I do think they should have just left it as a pitch black crater. that way it could be taken two different ways.
A: It's a Hole
B: it's such a Dark burn his skin is black
Leave it up to interpretation. Again, I don't like the change but I don't chastize them for it. They probably HAD to make this change to get it on TV with today's Standards.

Son Wukong · Post by **Son Wukong** » Sun Apr 19, 2009 7:27 am

Episode 3:

Positive:
-Content of newly animated frames was mind blowing. The effect they got with the first fist fight, the first makankosappo and many others turned out great.
-Music went up +1 (although still not better than the previous ones).
-Pacing was great since it managed to keep the tension for the whole episode.
-The song that is played during Goku's death.
-Vegeta's armour and voice.

Negative:
-Censoring....sucked hard.
-The transition between new animated frames and the old ones (although this is just a minor negative for me).
-slowed down fighting scenes.
-I said that I liked the pacing for this episode particularly but even if we do get 100 episodes of non-filler, with this pace of the fighting we will be left with only a handful of episodes of true fighting.
-The ''on the last episode'' scene stopped at Kame House while it should have stopped at the battlefield of Raditz, Goku and Piccolo (also a minor negative).
-Nappa's voice (also a minor negative).
-Some scene transitions and left out monologue like Raditz explaining that Goku and Piccolo can focus and rise their ki. (minor negative).

Conclusion:
Still an average OK.

EDIT: You know..now that I think about it, they can release an uncensored version on the DVD and Blu-ray can't they?

DemonRin · Post by **DemonRin** » Sun Apr 19, 2009 7:32 am

Wow... I just looked at the Manga...
It actually had almost No Blood... there were a few drops when Son dropped after he let go of Raditz... and the Blood coming out of Raditz' Mouth was still there... but that was pretty much it... there wasn't even a pool under Raditz' head... it was just like... it was starting to grow wider at the base of his head as if a pool was about to form... but then in the next panel there isn't ANY blood pooled on the ground at all... it's simply gone... Wow... it's kinda surprising actually... when they made Z, Toei went a little blood-crazy...

EDIT: @Wukong: That's what they did for Gurren Lagann.
almost Every Episode had tweaked Animation for the fight scenes (to make them look prettier) and Episode 6 Was uncut. (It showed mostly naked girls the entire Episode, which was a No-No for TV)

Post by **Herms** » Sun Apr 19, 2009 7:35 am

Son Wukong wrote:-Some scene transitions and left out monologue like Raditz explaining that Goku and Piccolo can focus and rise their ki. (minor negative).

They actually only took out one such line of Raditz saying how Goku and Piccolo can manipulate their ki (out of 3 or so). So overall it's no big loss.

DemonRin · Post by **DemonRin** » Sun Apr 19, 2009 8:18 am

Oh wow!!
I just got to watch the whole thing! The Pacing was awesome!! I REALLY like how this episode flowed pacing wise, everything fit REALLY well!!
I don't get the complaints about the Speed of the fighting though... I mean, if you compare side-by-side there might be a difference... but the pacing worked perfectly in the context of the rest of the episode... it all went quite fast and I didn't lose any enjoyment from the speed of things.

Also, the fixed lineart was REALLY apparent here, you can tell they redrew over a LOT of frames this time around, and it all looked REALLY nice!!
Now Wait... ok, was it just me or did they ADD THINGS?!?!
I saw quite a few things that looked newish... are we getting added frames and clips!?!?!? AWESOME!!

As for the Voice Acting, Spot on!! the Japanese Cast knows how to get it done!! Chiba's Raditz... I don't know if I'm the best judge for him though... I was expecting to hear him say "Now Kakarott, if you intend to Fight me I'll FLASHILY Kill you!!" The entire time!! XD

And God the Music!! I was a little... lets say hesitant to give Kikuchi a good score before, wanted to hear more first. Son's Death Scene... My God, Son's Death Scene... That was beautiful!!

The content edits aren't so bad when you watch all of it. The screenshots focus soley on the one scene with the Gaping wound. In other scenes there's blood. Piccolo's arm still drips and there's a pool under it (albeit it's purple now, but that's to match the fact that they made it purple when his alien origin was established, not a content edit but a continuity one) When Raditz Shouts "CHIKUSHO!!" His Mouth is FULL of blood and it's all over his teeth and coming out of his nose.
Honestly, I still stand by the Idea that there's just about this much blood in the Manga. Not to mention that they edited the Gaping hole (which is something I don't like) but I think this was a Edited for TV instance... and honestly, if the Wound is a Burn now and not a Gaping hole, then there would obviously be No blood. Burns don't bleed.
Raditz' hole is left Rather red-redish brown and dark though, so at least his can still be implied to be a hole.

The Cropping was still a non-issue, I never noticed anything missing from any frames, but an Interesting bit. When Son and Piccolo first rush Raditz, they completely reframed one of the shots!! and when I say completely, I mean Originally you saw one shot of Son, and then a different Shot of Piccolo. in Kai, Both Son and Piccolo are in the Shot at the same time!! I'll take a Screencap but I'm sure of it!! Now, THAT'S a complete Reframing!!

EDIT: Nevermind, Kei made a comparison.

Again... I don't really understand the Problem with the speed of the fight... sure, there's a difference if you compare them side to side (although a small Animated gif is hardly a fair show of the animation) but I didn't notice the slowdown AT ALL just watching the episode...

ShinRogafuken · Post by **ShinRogafuken** » Sun Apr 19, 2009 8:50 am

Episode 3 was great. I basically agree with DemonRin and SonWukong.

Saago · Post by **Saago** » Sun Apr 19, 2009 9:58 am

The transition between new animated frames and the old ones (although this is just a minor negative for me).

I'm surprised this is not being mentioned more. Those re-drawn frames stand out like crazy. I didn't care in the first two episodes, because it was only one or two short moments, but this? This episode alternates old and newly re-drawn frames all the time, and it's so awfully obvious.

I mean, they corrected Vegeta's armour, cool... but in exchange, whenever Vegeta appears on screen in this episode it looks like another series. Look at Goku's death scene, there's no cohesion at all. You have the old animation, then suddenly you have a re-drawn frame, then you have old animation again... Or look at the beginning of the fight with Raditz; it goes from old-looking to new-looking animation and back, I don't even know how many times. Terrible.

Dogasu · Post by **Dogasu** » Sun Apr 19, 2009 10:47 am

DemonRin wrote:Nope, argument doesn't work at all.
FUNi doesn't make buckets of money from TV airings, it's all the DVDs. Why do you think FUNi stopped selling "Edited" DVDs of pretty much EVERY show they sell? Because Edited DVDs DONT SELL!!

Dude, chill out. I have no idea why you seem to feel the need to be so condescending to me.

And I never mentioned anything about edited DVDs. What I was saying was that the people who are making these edits might be doing so to make the show more appealing to FUNimation - for a TV airing. Because, let's face it - if Toei gave the rights to dub this series to FUNi, they wouldn't be happy with a DVD-only release. They'd want a TV airing to maximize the audience reached. Hence the preemptive editing.

I reiterate that I neither agree nor disagree with the "these content edits are to make the show more appealing to FUNimation" theory. I'm simply stating why I think it makes sense.

XanatosVanBadass · Post by **XanatosVanBadass** » Sun Apr 19, 2009 10:53 am

I think someone mentioned this before, but I think I should just throw in my thoughts on it anyway and reiterate that these edits may simply be for the TV airings. Hasn't it occured to anyone that the blood MAY still be intact for the DVD/Blueray releases? Its not uncommon for blood/nudity to be cut out of the TV airing, but be intact when released on DVD for anime, you know. Perhaps we're all jumping the gun and screaming bloody murder at Toei preemtively? Calling people hypocrates and all.