Kai Episode 3 (19 April 2009)

[omegacwa]

Going nitpicky... anybody noticed what's wrong with this scene?

Ripped blue shirt that he wasn't wearing.

Took me a minute. Never would'a noticed otherwise.

I was just going to say "Goku looks terrible"

Also I am really starting to get behind the new music.

[Saiyavenger2941]

Again, I have no desire to see a child's twig-and-berries. I'm actually quite happy with the edits to that.

And as for the blood, as I've said before, I don't entirely mind some of it being left out. Dragonball isn't a series that needs intense gore. However, a lot of this stuff is pretty lame. I still don't see how "the earth's mightiest warrior" was killed by just a bruise. (An unexplainable bruise at that, seeing as the attack WENT THROUGH HIM.) What Toei has done is created a complete mindfuck with that, not to mention making loads of fans completely shit bricks over it.

And now I have to wonder how some of the Freeza Arc deaths will be portrayed. Somehow, I don't see Krillin getting blowed up or Freezypop getting sliced in half leaving just a bruise.

[omegacwa]

Well, one could argue that because the Makankosappo is an "Energy" attack, it could actually fuse the wound closed (cauterize) after it exits.

I would not argue this though, cause I think the editing is also "lame".

[Kendamu]

One could also argue that it is a Chi attack so it doesn't cause damage the same way as a physical attack.

I'm just gonna pretend that I saw a giant hole in Goku instead.

[Super Ghost Kamikaze]

They really should have just reanimated or reframed the bit. Censorship of existing material sucks because the original material wasn't made with the intention of those standards being imposed on it.

The Batman cartoon was able to work around the standards of its time and still give us a Robin origin that was faithful and still hit the correct emotional notes. When the Batman Beyond movie was made and then they had to go back and edit it, the edits hurt the impacts of the scenes because they had been made with the intention of grittier standards.

[Zenkai Power]

I finally watched this episode and I've gotta say the censoring was kind of lame but what bothered me most was the re-drawn scenes or whatever. It's obvious to me when I see them, they just have a different look to them. And there is little to no shading or anything on the scenes so it looks kind of tacky honestly and makes everything look out of place as it drifts in and out of new animation that is supposed to look old and 1989 animation. There's a shot where Radditz kicks Piccolo and Goku in the face that appears to be new or re-drawn and it just looks funny. If they did re-animate the series I would hope they'd draw it better than that scene.

Vegeta's new colors look okay but again, this just doesn't seem to look as nice animated as it originally looked. I think if drawn in a more modern tone or with more detail to these drawings it would look better but it looks out of place and tackyish. I dunno if they just did a quick job or if that's just how new animation looks over the old animation (if it was just recolored).

*shrug*

There was too much "tampered with" in this episode but overall I guess it doesn't hurt the story. But I just keep going, they should have just re-animated DBZ to begin with b/c the number of changes/edits/new animation is beginning to grow significantly.

[Puto]

They really should have just reanimated or reframed the bit. Censorship of existing material sucks because the original material wasn't made with the intention of those standards being imposed on it..

They did. All the censored scenes were re-drawn.

[SSj_Rambo]

Hmm, I randomly hit pause to go to the bathroom while re-watching ep 3, and just happened to pause on this frame:



And I noticed this new special effect during Piccolo and Goku's first run at Raditz (in this episode). This is new, right?





It reminds me a lot of the effect that was used when Goku first went Super Saiya-jin, with the ripples in the air and everything (only then, it was hand animated):



Side Note: Would anyone be apposed to me quoting all of the posts from the other (short-lived) DBK ep 3 threadinto one big post and putting it here? Or would anyone think it's a good idea? There was some very good immediate accounts and analysis' of the episode there, and I really think they belong in the sticky...

[Super Ghost Kamikaze]

They really should have just reanimated or reframed the bit. Censorship of existing material sucks because the original material wasn't made with the intention of those standards being imposed on it..

They did. All the censored scenes were re-drawn.

Completely? Because if they re-animated the whole thing just to give Goku a burn or bruise or whatever that is, they lost the opportunity to re-frame it so that it didn't look so stupid.

[Bejiita]

Let me add in my word now that I've watched the episode.

It was nice. Honestly, it was nice to see the fight progress at that pace, and if it wasn't that it would have been the music playing when Goku died, it definately changed the mood, and sounded similar to a piece in the old school DBZ (will it be called that now?). But (there's always a but), I can't help feel it's changing the mood of the way certain scenes play out, in the original, the music playing when Goku died wasn't as dramatic, and more of a feel that the story has just started to open up(it's not really a piece of music it's more like a high pitched sound that reminds me of a scene from a Bruce Lee film), on the other hand the Kai music had the kind of feel that Goku is dead for good if you get my drift. I see some people think the original music that plays when Gohan breaks out isn't as good as the Kai version, I think the exact opposite! I loved that scene in the original, in Kai, the music didn't give the same impression, that tune is Gohan's theme.

I also didn't expect a load of fans to say that people are hypocrites for liking Kai even though they didn't like the dub when it was edited. It's not as if Kai is being edited to the point where it's as bad as what Saban or Funi did, they completely ripped the first 63 episodes, and red was painted over, at least the blood in Kai is left in, and not to mention the changes in dialogue, phrases like 'the next dimention' and HFIL, it would have made for a good one liner from Vegeta, but not to refer to it every time the word Hell or kill needs to be used, it became too repetitive. Well I am a person who dislikes what Funi did in the past and choose not to watch those episodes, but I still watch and like Kai, and I'm not a hypocrite at all for that. Dragonball on tv in Japan was over and done with as soon as it stopped airing, it's been a long time, Kai is obviously aimed at today's audience, so stuff needs to be cut out for today's TV standards, it's not just people in the West who go loopy over blood and private parts in a kids show, it's 2009, that sort of thing could cause problems in Japan now, they're playing it safe.

I am a fan of the original Japanese version, I am not a hypocrite for watching Kai, it's more like I'm assessing Kai instead of watching it, seeing what they've changed, how the voices sound, trying to see if today's version of DB will appeal to the audience more than if they just released Kai with the same voices and bgm as the original, I know the score and what will happen we all do, but that don't mean shit, it's still a joy to watch a 2009 version of DBZ, in HD, without filler, new music and some redrawn art, even though the old version walks all over it. How many people here can even say they was into DB as it aired in Japan, it wasn't even out over here, so to be experiencing DB material from Japan that is actually happening in the present is an experience I thought I'd never get to have, it's nothing too special, but it's good for the fans to have this huge sort of update, and that the kids of Japan in this time have easy access to one of the greatest shows, I don't know if a kid would even as their parents to get some DBOX singles as a gift for them, as DB hasn't aired for a long time over there and I'm not too sure the fan base from the 80's is who Kai is aimed at, most youngers probably haven't watched DB properly, so they may not be as 'in to' it as they may become now.

[DaemonCorps]

Side Note: Would anyone be apposed to me quoting all of the posts from the other (short-lived) DBK ep 3 threadinto one big post and putting it here? Or would anyone think it's a good idea? There was some very good immediate accounts and analysis' of the episode there, and I really think they belong in the sticky...

Well, at the least that topic's in the same "section" and it's not like we can't bounce back and forth between the two if we had to. If you wanna bring something up from the old thread, go ahead and quote some people is all .

[NeoKING]

Granted the mistakes for GT episode titles were MUCH MUCH bigger..That episode where Goku finally kills Bebi was originally going to be called "Only 5 Seconds To Leave Planet Tsufuru?!" or something.

Eh? How do we know this?

Ok, I FINALLY found the website. It's Dragon Ball Arena. Check this except out:

"Episode #40
(Aired 03/05/97)

Chikyuu Bakuhatsu! Pikkoro no Juudaina Ketsui
Earth Explodes!! Piccolo's Serious Determination

(Just a quick note.)
It seems that there is now a "missing episode" for DBGT. Both Newtype Magazine, and the Toei Studios web site list a different episode for number 39. Apparently, episode 39 was slated to be:
Kutabare Bebii! Konjyou no Ichigeki
Shit on Baby! A Spirited One-Punch Attack

Then, things get interesting. Newtype lists episode 40 as:
Everyone Escape!! 5 Seconds Before Earth Explodes

However, the Toei web site gives a preview for the next 2 week's shows. According to the web site, episode 40 was to be:
This is How It Ends! Finally, Baby's Extinction

Which of course is the episode that actually aired last week. This implies that Toei actually created artwork for "Kutabare Bebii", but had pulled that episode for some reason.
What makes things more interesting is that the real episode 40 doesn't have the same name that Newtype lists as being episode 40. Unfortunately, the Toei Studios page doesn't have the preview for episode 41 posted -- that would have made things much more tantalizing. I'm wondering too whether Toei will correct the episode numbering on their page next week, or if they'll perpetuate it."

This is what I was referring to with episode naming mistakes.

Original page: http://dragonballarena.gamesurf.it/engl ... s_pag5.php

[DemonRin]

I actually don't think it's the blood.
Raditz had a fair share of blood filling his mouth when he shouted right after the attack hit, Not to mention the Luffy Vs Lucci fight in One Piece.
I think the problem was completely because of the Gaping holes in both men. Fuji probably said "No Gaping holes" and Toei edited it accordingly. The Blood just got removed because it would logically not be bleeding if it's a burn now. I don't think we'll have many problems in the future, because any time someone gets impaled or punched through from this point on, Either something is plugging the hole (Freeza's horn in Kuririn, Gero's Arm through Yamucha) or the hole didn't bleed in the first place and automatically fills itself in because to that character, it was no big deal (Cell, Boo)

This could also just be Toei fixing a Logical Mistake. It's the lightsaber Principle. A Very Heat-intense Attack would cauterize the wound anyway, meaning there logically wouldn't much, if any blood. Maybe that's why Toriyama drew MUCH MUCH Less blood than Toei did originally.
But the Blood in Raditz' mouth leads me to believe that the Amount of Blood WASN'T the issue here.

[Mr. Announcer]

So, I finally got the chance to sit down and watch episode 3. I thought it was pretty sweet for the most part, especially since this is the first real action episode we've gotten.

While I do enjoy me some good old fashioned choppy DB fight animation, smoother is nice too, but I agree with most of you in saying that some of the new frames really stood out in an awkward way. I wouldn't go as far as saying that they look inferior to the original frames because god knows some of the original drawings were utter crap to begin with, but they're certainly not consistent with the style of the rest of the animation is terms of contrast and line quality. It was especially noticeable in the Nappa and Vegeta scene where we see that Nappa has more subdued colors and a nice blended quality (or just fuzzy?) and suddenly Vegeta is all bright with some pretty sharp highlights. If things could just be a little more consistent I'd be perfectly content.

The censoring was pretty shitty. I understand that standards have gotten stricter but it just sucks when you know how it should look (which applies to the majority of viewers I'm sure). I was always a fan of gore in Dragonball, it helped get the point across that this stuff actually hurts and does serious bodily damage. Gore made it more of a matter of life and death, and less of a magic show, but I know their reasons and I'm not that sore I guess...

The acting was great as to be expected but I felt Piccolo maybe didn't have as sinister a tone as he should still have had this early on. I'm also starting to worry about Nozawa. When Gokuh's just talking normally she sounds great, but when the screaming starts I get the feeling she's just trying her hardest to get the volume and intensity and loses some of the tone and emotion in the process. I know she's getting on in years so some difficulty is to be expected, but I mean, Gokuh's going to be doing an awful lot of screaming...


Am I the only one who thinks the music is still too loud? I swear it was not this loud in comparison to the dialogue in the original. Are they just trying to emphasize the new score? It's kinda overpowering in a couple scenes if ya ask me.

I feel like I'm complaining a lot, but I really enjoyed the episode. I guess I just can't help but point out what's different since I'm so familiar with the original. I love Kai's pacing though and for the most part I think the picture looks great. Looking forward to it every week.

[Ramoro-san]

I didn't get a chance to get in on the discussion earlier, so I just want to jump in here. I was all excited about Kai at the start. I love the smooth picture and the fast paced... fillerless-ness. And that goes for episode 3. In this episode in particular, I really love how pretty some of the remastered shots look during the fight, all clean and bright. It's not completely consistent in my eyes, but I was willing to look over some of the messy moments for sake of the awesomeness of other moments. In this respect, Kai somewhat lives up to the "Refreshed" name.

However, I'm getting increasingly uncomfortable with Kai. Like some of you have expressed in this discussion, this censorship of the violence from the original DBZ footage is just not okay with me at all.

I don't think there's any excuse for it and I don't buy any justifications for it. None of this nonsense about what "type of wounds" have been inflicted-- burns versus gaping holes, whether there would be blood on it-- whatever. What. Ever. No offense meant to anybody, but I seriously doubt that they would have had that train of thought. I mean, really-- realism is not the point of DragonBall.

And sure, Kai could be considered a new, separate entity, but it's still the old footage. It would be one thing if it were an entirely new animation show, but it's not. The fact is they are minimizing the violent content from the original show.

This came as a great shock to me. I was just not expecting such a thing to be done on a Japanese show. They didn't care in 1989, why do they care now? Are they committing the American fallacy of blaming society's ills on televised violence? Regardless, why should Toei alter the content of their own original vision for DBZ? I don't get this at all. It's expected that American TV would censor the content, and they obviously did. But now the original creators are doing it for Japan? It's so ironic. And it's just not okay. Stop the censorship.
The end.

[DemonRin]

I didn't get a chance to get in on the discussion earlier, so I just want to jump in here. I was all excited about Kai at the start. I love the smooth picture and the fast paced... fillerless-ness. And that goes for episode 3. In this episode in particular, I really love how pretty some of the remastered shots look during the fight, all clean and bright. It's not completely consistent in my eyes, but I was willing to look over some of the messy moments for sake of the awesomeness of other moments. In this respect, Kai somewhat lives up to the "Refreshed" name.

However, I'm getting increasingly uncomfortable with Kai. Like some of you have expressed in this discussion, this censorship of the violence from the original DBZ footage is just not okay with me at all.

I don't think there's any excuse for it and I don't buy any justifications for it. None of this nonsense about what "type of wounds" have been inflicted-- burns versus gaping holes, whether there would be blood on it-- whatever. What. Ever. No offense meant to anybody, but I seriously doubt that they would have had that train of thought. I mean, really-- realism is not the point of DragonBall.

And sure, Kai could be considered a new, separate entity, but it's still the old footage. It would be one thing if it were an entirely new animation show, but it's not. The fact is they are minimizing the violent content from the original show.

This came as a great shock to me. I was just not expecting such a thing to be done on a Japanese show. They didn't care in 1989, why do they care now? Are they committing the American fallacy of blaming society's ills on televised violence? Regardless, why should Toei alter the content of their own original vision for DBZ? I don't get this at all. It's expected that American TV would censor the content, and they obviously did. But now the original creators are doing it for Japan? It's so ironic. And it's just not okay. Stop the censorship.
The end.

First off, Other shows aren't immune to this. One Piece has CLEARLY shown that there are things in Japan that aren't allowed on TV anymore.
in one of the newest Episodes, A character named Law flipped someone off in the Manga. The anime removed it entirely, so he only looks back at him. I KNOW Middle fingers have been allowed in the past, we've seen them before, but now they aren't in Japan for some reason.
Also, when censorship happens, it's usually very specific. For example, in America when Naruto hit, they were told they could show as much blood as they wanted as long as the blood was flowing. Blood was ok, but Pools of blood were not, they were specific about it. In One Piece, they were allowed to show people getting beaten about as long as they didn't show the exact hit. you could see Luffy punch someone in the face as long as the VERY moment the punch connected with the face, the frame was removed or "Flashed out" so you couldn't see the hit connect. People are very VERY specific about that shit when it comes to censorship.
Fuji could very well have said "Yeah... you can do most everything... but no Gaping holes in people..." and the Blood just got removed because, if it's no longer a Gaping wound, and is instead a Burn, it logically wouldn't bleed. This seems likely, since in the very next moment you see TONS Of blood in and dripping out of Raditz' Mouth.

[SSj_Rambo]

Something about the new V-Jump that contains part 2 of the manga adaptation of the Jump Super Anime Tour. It has some Kai stuff on the front; hopefully someone can read some of it...

Ｖジャンプ6月号、明日発売ッ!!

みんな、おはようだよ！
カネマールです！

いよいよ明日に発売がせまった、Ｖジャンプ6月号のあからさまな宣伝をしちゃいます！


表紙は、先週のジャンBANG!でも公開しましたが、こちら、ドラゴンボール改です！

この、悟空が悟飯を抱っこしてる構図は、桃屋さんの「ごはんですよ！」のCMと同じじゃあないかッ!!?

By the way, here's a nice image of the cover of the Jump manga adaptation section, which differs from the original cover for part two.

[Herms]

Kutabare Bebii! Konjyou no Ichigeki
Shit on Baby! A Spirited One-Punch Attack

...that'd be more like "Die, Baby!" or "Go to Hell, Baby!".

[Chuquita]

Something about the new V-Jump that contains part 2 of the manga adaptation of the Jump Super Anime Tour. It has some Kai stuff on the front; hopefully someone can read some of it...

Ｖジャンプ6月号、明日発売ッ!!

みんな、おはようだよ！
カネマールです！

いよいよ明日に発売がせまった、Ｖジャンプ6月号のあからさまな宣伝をしちゃいます！


表紙は、先週のジャンBANG!でも公開しましたが、こちら、ドラゴンボール改です！

この、悟空が悟飯を抱っこしてる構図は、桃屋さんの「ごはんですよ！」のCMと同じじゃあないかッ!!?

By the way, here's a nice image of the cover of the Jump manga adaptation section, which differs from the original cover for part two.

Nice! X3

Looking forward to reading Part 2 when its available.

[Kendamu]

Something about the new V-Jump that contains part 2 of the manga adaptation of the Jump Super Anime Tour. It has some Kai stuff on the front; hopefully someone can read some of it...

Ｖジャンプ6月号、明日発売ッ!!

みんな、おはようだよ！
カネマールです！

いよいよ明日に発売がせまった、Ｖジャンプ6月号のあからさまな宣伝をしちゃいます！


表紙は、先週のジャンBANG!でも公開しましたが、こちら、ドラゴンボール改です！

この、悟空が悟飯を抱っこしてる構図は、桃屋さんの「ごはんですよ！」のCMと同じじゃあないかッ!!?

By the way, here's a nice image of the cover of the Jump manga adaptation section, which differs from the original cover for part two.

It talks about how it'll be on sale tomorrow. It takes about Goku and Gohan being on the cover. It also says something about the "Gohan desu yo!" ads.