Arthur Conan Doyle and Akira Toriyama.

[Pragmatic_Hominid]

Two things Akira Toriyama and Arthur Conan Doyle have in common: When pressured by fans and publishers to continue a series headed by a hugely popular lead character, they both eventually agreed, and they both proceeded to produce new works in which (at least, for a time) that lead character was almost completely absent.

The Hound of the Baskervilles was the first book that Doyle wrote after he "killed" Holmes (though it was set before his death) and Holmes barely appears in the thing. Though Holmes is active "off-camera" Watson is unaware of his presence on the moor for much of the book. Holmes shows up at the very end to wrap things up, but aside from that the reader barely sees him. Doyle is said to have hated his Holmes with a passion, having claimed in letters to friends that Holmes was preventing him from thinking about "better things," and that he needed to kill Holmes before Holmes killed him.

In the case of Toriyama, I understand that he intended to end the series with the fight against Furiza, in which Goku was meant to beat Furiza but die anyway. (Can anyone confirm this story for me? I've heard it from more than one source). I'm currently rereading the Cell saga, and something struck me: Goku is around briefly after he returns from Nameksei, but for all of volumes 14, 15 and the better part of 16 (DB 30 - 32) Goku's presence is amped way down. He’s sick in bed, of course, but the lack of attention the story pays to him is still striking.

In the past, when Goku has been away from the main action of the story, Toriyama offered regular status updates. But for the first two and a half books of the Cell Saga, aside two or three small scenes, he's completely absent. I may be wrong, but it seems to me that if Toriyama's feelings toward Goku had been comfortable, there would have been more scenes charting Goku's illness and recovery, or at least some frames in which he's in more than the peripheral. A man on a sick bed is by definition a nonactor, but for large stretches of these volumes, I almost forgot that Goku was there.

I understand that the comic ran one chapter per week, so if I’ve worked this out right, that means Goku was on the sidelines for about half a year. During this time much of the story is told from Kuririn's point of view. Shall we call him Goku's Watson? There's similarities here as well (and I'm not trying to claim that Toriyama was in anyway inspired by Doyle, as I have no idea if he read any of the Holmes stories, but that their artistic processes, though completely indepenant, may have traveled similar paths). Like Watson, Kuririn serves as a (literally) more human foil for a character with incredible skills and talents.

During this time, the remaining balance of the story was driven by Cell and the androids, entirely new characters. Their interactions with the usual cast were also rather limited. Toriyama did sometimes shift the narrative to follow villains and temporary or minor characters, but again, this was never so extreme as during the Cell saga.

I wonder if Toriyama was bored with Goku at the time, or if he had something he needed to work out with that character?

Oh, and btw: I’m new. Hi.

[Chuquita]

Hi! Welcome to the forums!


I've heard that about the Sherlock Holmes stories; I think with the Cell Arc, Mr. Toriyama was having frustrations with his editors (who kept forcing him to change the villains, which is why we jumped from 19 and 20 to 18, 17, and 16, and then through Cell's three forms).

That, coupled with what I've heard about him really wanting to make Gohan the main character for the Z portion of the series and the audiences in Japan not wanting that (they preferred Goku over Gohan as the lead) is also what I attribute to the reasons for Goku constantly getting sidelined and/or killed off for various reasons.


Its especially evident in the Buu arc when Mr. Toriyama sets up Gohan to be the one to defeat Buu (the whole mystic power up thing) and then, despite all this build up, Gohan fails? Rather quickly I might add; so that Goku has to jump in and Vegeta's magically swept back on-stage as backup (Vegeta consistently comes in 2nd in the character polls behind Goku) despite his going out with a rather dramatic end against Fat Buu?


The audiences and possibly the editors just wanted Goku there when Mr. Toriyama wanted Gohan.

[ssjcj]

Personally, I would have preferred Gohan to have defeated Buu, as it was being set up for Gohan to be the one defeat him and it seemed like a natural progression the torch is passed from father to son. Heck, I wouldn't have minded Gotenks becoming the hero. Toriyama even tries to make Goten and Trunks the main characters.

What I think is evident to Toriyama becoming tired with Goku is that the character develops very little from Freeza onwards, while Gohan changes tremendously.

It is an interesting comparison between Doyle and Toriyama as, like you stated, they seemed to be pressured in to taking the story a different direction to the one they each would have liked. I guess it's their own fault for making such good protagonists.

Oh, and welcome to the forums.

[Hao_Kaiser]

First of all, welcome to the forum!

In the case of Toriyama, I understand that he intended to end the series with the fight against Furiza, in which Goku was meant to beat Furiza but die anyway. (Can anyone confirm this story for me? I've heard it from more than one source).

I'm sure someone (*cough Herms cough*) will probably jump in here and elaborate on this, but from what I've gathered, Toriyama ending the series after Freeza is nothing but fan speculation. I can sort of see where people would get the idea, given how the story seems to be heading and the somewhat ambiguous fate of Goku after defeating Freeza, but Toriyama has never officially confirmed or denied any intentions of the sort.

I think he did mention in an interview that had planned to end the series after a year, though... Which would have been after the Pilaf arc, I think.

I wonder if Toriyama was bored with Goku at the time?

This is what I've always thought. Much like how Doyle felt stifled by being forced to write for Holmes, I can imagine that Toriyama felt the need to give Goku a rest for a while.

It is interesting how you point out how much more focus was given to the Cell era villains, though... I've never really noticed that.

[Herms]

I'm sure someone (*cough Herms cough*) will probably jump in here and elaborate on this, but from what I've gathered, Toriyama ending the series after Freeza is nothing but fan speculation.

Yeah, there's no official source for that story.

One thing Doyle had in common with Toriyama is that he also wrote the Holmes stories on the fly, and didn't put much thought into details. That's why there's numerous contradictions in the Holmes stories, particulary with the dates for when things take place.

[Thanos6]

I've always found it ironic that I consider the parts of the manga where Goku is forcibly sidelined to be some of the absolute best (Freeza vs. everyone else while Goku is in the healing tank; various androids and Cell wreaking havoc while Goku is healing in bed). The Cell Saga especially goes downhill when Goku recovers (and even further downhill when he heads for the RoSaT).

Honestly, I can't think of another series I love where I enjoy the supporting cast so much more than the main hero.