Dr Gero's Goal.

chibi_goten · Post by **chibi_goten** » Thu Jun 18, 2009 2:02 pm

Dr Gero created 16,17,18,19 and well em' himself, sorta'.

When he created these fighters to defeat the ''Z Fighters'', he wasn't aware of the training that went on before,during, and after Namek. He created the jinzoningen, and modified himself to be strong enough to defeat the fighters, and 16 to kill Goku.

So with all these fighters who were made to be a lot stronger then what he thought the Z fighters were, why would he create a Cell?

Although Cell would have the best qualities of everyone, with the best fighting techniques, skills, fighting styles, and with Piccolo's regeneration ability, it would make sense that he would be the ''perfect'' fighter, but he was still made up from cell's of the warriors when they were in their weaker, inferior states.

To make Cell complete and to give him most of his power, he had to absorb the jinzoningen, who were still a ''work in progress'' as they were out of conrol and Dr Gero was still trying to make them fully obedient to serve him, but even still, if he succeeded in finishing them, himself, 17 & 18 would be unstoppable anyways.

The only person who'd have a chance would be Piccolo after he's fused with Kami, but Dr Gero wouldn't have been expecting this, and maybe if Piccolo didn't fuse with Nail whilst they were on Namek or have the time to train full on whilst preparing for the jinzoningen , the fused Piccolo and Kami woudn't be quite as strong or a challenge for the good Doctor and co', but this part isn't really necessary.

So my point, if he completed working on 17 & 18, if he made them to fully obey him, where would Cell come into it?

Cell would come along and become the ultimate fighter, although everybody who would be a challenge would have been wiped out by Dr Gero, 17 & 18 ( the completed obedient 17 & 18 that is) before Cell's completion.

Then Cell would come, absorb the obedient and willing 17 & 18 who would be the two most powerfull beings anyways, but then what next for Dr Gero?

Alternatively,

Dr Gero was under the impression that himself and maybe with the aid of 19 would be able to take out all of the Z fighters anyways without the aid of 17 & 18 when they were disobedient.

So even if he didn't go back to working on 17 & 18, and kept them as batteries for when Cell was ready, what was next for Dr Gero, where did he fit himself into this master plan of his?

Victator Supreme · Post by **Victator Supreme** » Thu Jun 18, 2009 2:24 pm

Cell was a failed project he was unable to finish. It took his computers years after his death to finish. I assume his goals were

1. Kill Son Goku and friends.

2. Finish what the Red Ribbon Army started and conquer Earth.

rereboy · Post by **rereboy** » Thu Jun 18, 2009 3:56 pm

Cell was an experiment to create the perfect bio organism. But he didn`t finish it and let the computer work on it while he was busy perfecting the androids.

So if Dr. Gero was still alive and he was successful in achieving his goals he could just not let his computer finish. Or maybe he would because he`s crazy.

chibi_goten · Post by **chibi_goten** » Thu Jun 18, 2009 4:08 pm

Victator Supreme wrote:Cell was a failed project he was unable to finish. It took his computers years after his death to finish.

It took years after Doctor Gero was killed for Cell to be finished, that's true. I was trying to say that if he ''wasn't killed'', if he lived on which he probably would have done, seeing as he converted himself into android, I think this would have prolonged his life span and old age wouldn't have been an issue for an extra, twenty years or however long it took for Cell to come on the scene in Trunks time line.

(I'm not just picking that up wrong, he did convert himself, right?).

Victator Supreme · Post by **Victator Supreme** » Thu Jun 18, 2009 4:17 pm

He did indeed. I always wondered why he made himself old, unless he is a cyborg too.

Dayspring · Post by **Dayspring** » Thu Jun 18, 2009 4:59 pm

Seeing as how the computer took over Cell at some unknown point prior to the battle against Vegeta, and since Cell's goal is to obtain the perfect form (ie: NOT to kill Goku), my guess is Cell is one of the first 7 androids. Thus Gero's goal with Cell would simply be to create some powerful artificial being.

Kirbopher · Post by **Kirbopher** » Thu Jun 18, 2009 7:19 pm

The real answer for half the shit that happens in the Android arc was simply that Toriyama's editor didn't like the look of each character he created as time went on. Even by the time he got up to Cell, he still had to redesign him a few times before what they eventually settled on was considered "acceptable" by the powers that be. If anything, that's why the logic behind the characters' logic in the context of the story is so wonky.

Chuquita · Post by **Chuquita** » Thu Jun 18, 2009 7:25 pm

Kirbopher wrote:The real answer for half the shit that happens in the Android arc was simply that Toriyama's editor didn't like the look of each character he created as time went on. Even by the time he got up to Cell, he still had to redesign him a few times before what they eventually settled on was considered "acceptable" by the powers that be. If anything, that's why the logic behind the characters' logic in the context of the story is so wonky.

It makes me often wonder how that arc would've gone if the editors hadn't battled Mr. Toriyama all the way through it.

19 and 20 were the original bad guys of that arc right? I think it could've been interesting. Not as gruesome as the whole Cell-sucking-bodies-dry thing; but it may have been just as dark.

Victator Supreme · Post by **Victator Supreme** » Thu Jun 18, 2009 7:53 pm

Kirbopher wrote:The real answer for half the shit that happens in the Android arc was simply that Toriyama's editor didn't like the look of each character he created as time went on. Even by the time he got up to Cell, he still had to redesign him a few times before what they eventually settled on was considered "acceptable" by the powers that be. If anything, that's why the logic behind the characters' logic in the context of the story is so wonky.

As I remember the editor was fine with first form Cell. Toriyama had him transform to advance the story. The editor was unhappy with that form so Cell transformed again. Which lead to the best part of the arc so alls well that ends well.

Dayspring · Post by **Dayspring** » Fri Jun 19, 2009 1:42 pm

Chuquita wrote:
Kirbopher wrote:The real answer for half the shit that happens in the Android arc was simply that Toriyama's editor didn't like the look of each character he created as time went on. Even by the time he got up to Cell, he still had to redesign him a few times before what they eventually settled on was considered "acceptable" by the powers that be. If anything, that's why the logic behind the characters' logic in the context of the story is so wonky.

It makes me often wonder how that arc would've gone if the editors hadn't battled Mr. Toriyama all the way through it.

19 and 20 were the original bad guys of that arc right? I think it could've been interesting. Not as gruesome as the whole Cell-sucking-bodies-dry thing; but it may have been just as dark.

Not really. It just means a different looking Cell would have assimilated #19 and #20 instead of the one we know assimilating #17 and #18.

Olivier Hague · Post by **Olivier Hague** » Sat Jun 20, 2009 3:54 am

Dayspring wrote:Not really. It just means a different looking Cell would have assimilated #19 and #20 instead of the one we know assimilating #17 and #18.

Er... Again, No. 19 and No. 20 were supposed to be the bad guys. Cell wouldn't have existed.

Post by **Herms** » Sat Jun 20, 2009 4:02 am

Victator Supreme wrote:As I remember the editor was fine with first form Cell. Toriyama had him transform to advance the story. The editor was unhappy with that form so Cell transformed again. Which lead to the best part of the arc so alls well that ends well.

No, his editor didn't like bug Cell either. And it was actually Toriyama's former editor, Torishima, who disapproved of No.19 and No.20, then No.17 and No.18. Here's the whole thing, from Shenlong Times #2:

AT: You're terrible to say that, Torishima-san. Right around then was when the Artificial Humans No. 19 and No. 20 appeared. You weren't my editor or anything anymore, but you specifically called me to say "I thought that the enemies had finally come, but aren't these just a geezer and a fatso?" (laughs) In truth, I hadn't had plans for anyone but No. 19 and No. 20 to appear. But there was no helping it, so I brought out No. 17 and No. 18. Then you called me up and said "What, this time it's just some brats?" So I brought out Cell. (laughs)

FT: So you hadn't planned on Cell appearing at all?

AT: That's right. I liked No. 19 and No. 20 just fine. And I liked the initial Cell fine as well.

FT: The bug-like one?

AT: But Kondou-san said "He looks ugly. Of course, he can transform.", so I had no choice but to transform him into his second-form.

YK: Was that how it was?

AT: And then you were really awful, Kondou-san. "This time, doesn't he look like a moron? Hurry up and make him into his perfect-form." you said.

YK: But he really did look like a moron. (laughs)

AT: With second-form Cell as well, I liked him well enough. Actually, I had wanted him to play a more active role. But since I was told he looked stupid, I had no choice but to change him. (laughs) So I made him into his cool-looking perfect-form, which was to Kondou-san's liking.

Torishima was Toriyama's editor from the beginning of the series up to the 23rd TB, while Kondou was his editor from Raditz through Cell reaching his perfect form (which makes me wonder if Toriyama insisted on a new editor after all that hasseling with Cell's forms).

Olivier Hague · Post by **Olivier Hague** » Sat Jun 20, 2009 4:54 am

Herms wrote:Torishima was Toriyama's editor from the beginning of the series up to the 23rd TB, while Kondou was his editor from Raditz through Cell reaching his perfect form

Basically, when the opening song changes, so does the editor. :þ

Post by **Herms** » Sat Jun 20, 2009 5:32 am

It's a conspriracy!

Though actually, Fuyuto Takeda took over as editor with the appearance of perfect-form Cell, and not the beginning of the Boo arc.

Olivier Hague · Post by **Olivier Hague** » Sat Jun 20, 2009 7:14 am

Herms wrote:Though actually, Fuyuto Takeda took over as editor with the appearance of perfect-form Cell, and not the beginning of the Boo arc.

I didn't know that. Odd timing for such a change.

Post by **Herms** » Sat Jun 20, 2009 8:17 am

Yeah. That's why I was wondering if the change in editor had anything to do with Kondou's complaints about Cell's designs. Probably not, but the timing makes me wonder.

Olivier Hague · Post by **Olivier Hague** » Sat Jun 20, 2009 8:42 am

Whatever the case... it might just explain Mr. Satan.

Xyex · Post by **Xyex** » Sat Jun 20, 2009 2:37 pm

It makes me often wonder how that arc would've gone if the editors hadn't battled Mr. Toriyama all the way through it.

19 and 20 were the original bad guys of that arc right? I think it could've been interesting. Not as gruesome as the whole Cell-sucking-bodies-dry thing; but it may have been just as dark.

I figure things would have gone the same up to the point of Vegeta stepping in for Goku. Instead of owning 19 the fight would have been even, thanks to Goku's energy, and then 19 would have started draining Vegeta and it would have been time to retreat after he started kicking Vegeta's ass as badly as he had Goku's. I figure then, Piccolo would fuse with Kami, go down and kick 19 and 20's butts two on one for a bit, they'd retreat, drain a few cities of power while Piccolo tries to chase after them much like with Cell (only following the vanishing kis since he can't track them specificially), and then they'd come back and beat on Piccolo.

Meanwhile Goku's recovered and taken everyone to the RoSaT. Vegeta and Trunks go in to train, come back out, and arrive at the 19 and 20 vs. Piccolo fight just in time to prevent Piccolo from being killed. SSJU Vegeta bats around 19 and manages to destroy him this time. 20 steps in and beats down both Vegeta and Trunks. Concerned about how they got so strong, and what Goku might be up to, he goes back on another city draining spree. Goku and Gohan emerge and head off to fight him. Goku fights fairly evenly with him at first but Gero manages to absorb a little more power from him and Goku starts to lose. Gohan jumps in to help his dad but hesitates a little, gets batted aside, and Goku's killed.

Gohan goes SSJ2, beats 20 around, and then fires a Kamehameha at him that 20 attempts to absorb (and that causes Piccolo to yell at him to stop) but in the end its way too much power for him and 20 blows up~

Granted, this goes with the idea that Toriyama didn't really change the course of the events too much, mostly just the enemies involved at a given point.

Dayspring · Post by **Dayspring** » Sat Jun 20, 2009 4:33 pm

Interesting that no comments are made about #16. I wonder if he was still going to be activated in the original storyline. While I'm glad things snowballed into Cell assimilating and becoming perfect, I'm annoyed at how semi-perfect Cell wasn't around for very long because of the second editor.

I wonder if Toriyama's decision to retire (or at that point semi-retire) was because he missed working with Torishima. That was the editor he was with since at least Wonder Island, right? That makes, what, 25 years by the point Torishima left?

Smooth Criminal · Post by **Smooth Criminal** » Sun Jun 21, 2009 1:44 am

It's true, though, second form Cell looked absolutely awful. Easily the worst of all of Toriyama's enemy designs. So bland and boring.

Thankfully, all that pressure resulted in the ultra-cool looking Perfect Cell.