An honest question

NeptuneKai · Post by **NeptuneKai** » Mon Jul 20, 2009 3:58 pm

With this thread I will be creating a big potential problem, before I begin please let me state the following is not an attack on the dub. I am honestly asking a question that I have been curious about for awhile now. Please let us all try to be respectful and level headed.
I will try to word things carefully and be as nice and unbiased as possible . However it won’t be easy for me, anyone who reads a typical NeptunKai posts knows I’m a sarcastic asshole so please bare with me if some of this comes off as offensive.

I am calling on all dub fans to try and help me understand something. What do you see in the dub? The voices and music are all subjective topics so the beauty is in the proverbial eye of the beholder, those topics I won’t focus on. However what about the inaccurate script? Do you actually enjoy what some would call “jejune” dub humor? Do you not mind Freeza cracking wise about Nail’s hand being used as a back scratcher or Bulma spending half a scene pleading for a foot massage? Unlike the script which matured gradually the humor remained as immature as ever even in the otherwise semi-impressive Buu and Cell games sagas. I have no real statistical data but my ballpark estimate would be there are nearly 5 bad jokes on an average in most dub DBZ episodes.
However if you actually find these jokes funny please say so. Or do you just ignore and accept them?

Then there is no denying the plot alterations through inaccurate dub dialogue. Vegeta’s entire back-story is altered and his reason for going SSJ is altered to a nonsensical explanation of apathy being the trigger. Gero is the leader of the Red Ribbion Army and Tao is a general. There are many age inconstancies and 16 is no longer a robot as far as we know seeing as how that explanation was changed to some techno babble about him having an updated neural processor. I’m sure I missed a few but you get my gist. Do you find these alterations an improvement? Something as large as a major character’s entire past being changed for no real reason some would deem unacceptable.

Of course we have the minor dialogue inconsistencies too such as Bulma wondering what Goku looks like as an adult on Namek although she had seen him back at Kame house with his son or Jheese claiming at the end of one episode Ginyu in Goku’s body had a rapidly increasing power level but an episode later they corrected this and said it was rapidly falling. Isn’t it difficult to ignore blatant mistakes like this?

Last but not least we have the problem everybody notices A.S.A.P it seems more often then not the dub completely ignores the Japanese script and goes off on its own tangent. This is especially bad in the Android and early Cell saga but is also very noticeable in the rest of the show. I know the script started being more accurate by time the Buu saga rolled around but seeing as how that is 1 out of 4 sagas you can’t dismiss the rest of the episodes scripts being drastically altered. Sometimes important information gets passed over and replaced by random dub “trash talking”. How is it you can accept this?

I’m having a hard time seeing how dub fans can ignore a version of the show without these flaws that is widely available to them. Does nostalgia drive you to watch the English version of the show? Surly not wanting to read subtitles doesn’t keep you away from the Japanese version. Or are the dub voices and music so good in your opinion it just sort of overrides these faults? I’m very curious. Again this isn’t a thread dedicated to bashing the dub. I’d really like to know what your take on these subjects are.Thanks for reading.

Rory · Post by **Rory** » Mon Jul 20, 2009 4:04 pm

Though my main preference is the original Japanese audio + subtitles, I'm also quite a fan of the Ocean group, who practically copied FUNimation's script, so perhaps this could apply to me also.
It's not just nostalgia(though this plays a large part), but I love some of ocean's voice actors, Brian Drummond being a favourite of mine. I just like seeing other takes on Dragonball. Saying that, it isn't my favourite form of Dragonball, that belongs to the original.. so maybe this question won't be aimed as much as much as everybody else.
Ah well, can't hurt to contribute.

SweetCosmicPope · Post by **SweetCosmicPope** » Mon Jul 20, 2009 4:06 pm

I'm kind of interested in this, myself.

I'm with Neptune, in that I think you should watch whatever you enjoy. I'm certainly not going to rip anybody on that.

However, I tried watching a dub episode (with Japanese music track) to see if maybe I could enjoy the dub more without the casio soundtrack.

Unfortunately, I couldn't last through one episode. It was literally driving me crazy. I found that I absolutely could not enjoy or stand watching it. I felt the acting was sub-par, the script was pretty far off from the original, and the jokes they squeezed in were just plain bad.

I'm sure I'm biased a bit, seeing as I enjoy the original story, but I honestly was thrown for a loop as to how I'd ever enjoyed watching dragonball in that form.

SweetCosmicPope · Post by **SweetCosmicPope** » Mon Jul 20, 2009 4:07 pm

Rory wrote:Though my main preference is the original Japanese audio + subtitles, I'm also quite a fan of the Ocean group, who practically copied FUNimation's script, so perhaps this could apply to me also.
It's not just nostalgia(though this plays a large part), but I love some of ocean's voice actors, Brian Drummond being a favourite of mine. I just like seeing other takes on Dragonball. Saying that, it isn't my favourite form of Dragonball, that belongs to the original.. so maybe this question won't be aimed as much as much as everybody else.
Ah well, can't hurt to contribute.

Now, I do still enjoy the original American dub featuring Ocean Group (seasons 1 and 2), but I never heard their continuation in Canada.

NeptuneKai · Post by **NeptuneKai** » Mon Jul 20, 2009 4:10 pm

Rory wrote:Though my main preference is the original Japanese audio + subtitles, I'm also quite a fan of the Ocean group, who practically copied FUNimation's script, so perhaps this could apply to me also.
It's not just nostalgia(though this plays a large part), but I love some of ocean's voice actors, Brian Drummond being a favourite of mine. I just like seeing other takes on Dragonball. Saying that, it isn't my favourite form of Dragonball, that belongs to the original.. so maybe this question won't be aimed as much as much as everybody else.
Ah well, can't hurt to contribute.

I hope I didn't give off the impression only Funi fans could contribute. This was pretty much aimed at anyone who enjoys any form of the English dub.
Thanks for the opinion. So it's more or less the voice actors that do it for you? So you don't mind the script too much because in return the show gives you a chance to hear your favorite V.A's right? I find that interesting although perfectly acceptable. Zolo's V.A is one of the only reasons I watch 4kids One Piece.

Kunzait_83 · Post by **Kunzait_83** » Mon Jul 20, 2009 4:16 pm

Metalwario64 · Post by **Metalwario64** » Mon Jul 20, 2009 4:17 pm

NeptuneKai wrote:
Rory wrote:Though my main preference is the original Japanese audio + subtitles, I'm also quite a fan of the Ocean group, who practically copied FUNimation's script, so perhaps this could apply to me also.
It's not just nostalgia(though this plays a large part), but I love some of ocean's voice actors, Brian Drummond being a favourite of mine. I just like seeing other takes on Dragonball. Saying that, it isn't my favourite form of Dragonball, that belongs to the original.. so maybe this question won't be aimed as much as much as everybody else.
Ah well, can't hurt to contribute.
I hope I didn't give off the impression only Funi fans could contribute. This was pretty much aimed at anyone who enjoys any form of the English dub.
Thanks for the opinion. So it's more or less the voice actors that do it for you? So you don't mind the script too much because in return the show gives you a chance to hear your favorite V.A's right? I find that interesting although perfectly acceptable. Zolo's V.A is one of the only reasons I watch 4kids One Piece.

...So you watch the 4kids version because of one voice actor that you prefer over FUNimations dub?

VenomSymbiote · Post by **VenomSymbiote** » Mon Jul 20, 2009 4:20 pm

NeptuneKai wrote: I’m having a hard time seeing how dub fans can ignore a version of the show without these flaws that is widely available to them. Does nostalgia drive you to watch the English version of the show? Surly not wanting to read subtitles doesn’t keep you away from the Japanese version. Or are the dub voices and music so good in your opinion it just sort of overrides these faults?

Well, it's not so much nostalgia as it is, "That's the version I know."

I don't care how good the Japanese voices are, how much better the music is, etc. Remember, opinions, in the end, are entirely subjective. Therefore, in my opinion, the Japanese version just fails in comparison to the dub, for me.

NeptuneKai wrote: Or are the dub voices and music so good in your opinion it just sort of overrides these faults?

It is, it is.

Isn't that the way it is for everything? I mean, if you love something so much, naturally, you'll defend it from anything/everything. Sometimes even it self, case in point, the entire inconsistancy with Trunks' timelines, as Dayspring has shown time and time again. That's a flaw even in the Japanese version. But do you condemn it for being wrong? No, of course not. You may point it out, but you don't hate it. Same with us dubbies, as far as errors go.

It helps that I actually do know more than the average fan, as most people here on Daizex are. I can point it out, and despite it being a criticism, it just hightens my enjoyment in an odd way.

For me, the FUNimation dub is always first. It is, was, and will always be My Dragonball Z.

Chrono Trigger · Post by **Chrono Trigger** » Mon Jul 20, 2009 4:20 pm

The dub was the first form of the show I had access to. I grew up watching nothing but the dub and by the time I started buying the DVDs with Japanese version on them the show was pretty much over. It's what they showed on Toonami for an hour at one point and it's just what I watched. I know some of the voice actors have been miscast, I know some of the actors really can't act, I know there are inaccuracies, changes, and in some ways the dub is a very different story than the original but for some reason it just never bothered me that much. I really don't care about the fact that they changed someone's name or the fact that sometimes they'll have characters running their mouths in moments where there should be silence. I mean care just not enough for it to ruin the dub for me and I start bashing it. I've never taken this show so seriously that I could just flat out hate the dub. Not to just flat out say "How can anyone like this?" It clearly can't be that bad because it's so popular in America. Even with all of it's changes it's still basically the same story. So what if a fan of the original and a fan of the dub can't sit around and have nerdy conversations about the Kaioshin-kais or whatever. To me it's basically the same thing at the end of the day.

I was mostly just a kid when Dragon Ball first came out so I really never payed attention to stuff like that. I didn't think about how and why things were being presented or marketed to me or if character A sounds like a generic super hero. In fact if it wasn't for this forum or other sites like it, it probably would have never crossed my mind. At this point I am aware the dub has inaccuracies but I know the truth about all that stuff so it's really not a big deal. I've seen season 3 and it wasn't that great but instead of being so hurt and mentally distraught about it that I gave up on the dub and just blindly assumed that the rest of the show was handled like that I stuck with it till the end and back again and I know that everything about it has improved since then.

I don't have a problem with the voice actors, the dumb jokes, and the very small changes to the story. I know the truth and I know how things are supposed to be.I'm a cool enough guy who can enjoy both the dub and the original and that's pretty much how I view Dragon Ball.

NeptuneKai · Post by **NeptuneKai** » Mon Jul 20, 2009 4:23 pm

SweetCosmicPope wrote: I honestly was thrown for a loop as to how I'd ever enjoyed watching dragonball in that form.

I too had this exact same thing happen to me. I suppose maturity could be a contributing factor to the enjoyment of the dub. I don't know how old you are but in early teenage years it seems many kids are more inclined to enjoy trash talking and random humor which are extremely common practices in the dub. I'm not saying all dub fans are immature but that could be the case in some situations. I'm fairly sure it was the case for me.

Kunzait as funny as that was this is already a touchy subject and I don't want an argument to erupt over some little joke. If possible could you try to keep it a tad more respectful then that?

NeptuneKai · Post by **NeptuneKai** » Mon Jul 20, 2009 4:27 pm

Metalwario64 wrote: ...So you watch the 4kids version because of one voice actor that you prefer over FUNimations dub?

Oh no, the Funi dub is my OP dub of choice. I'm just saying I will look up 4kids OP clips just to see how Zolo's 4kids voice actor handled that specific scene or I won't turn off an episode if it's on T.V because I do enjoy a few little things about that specific dub.

Thanks for those posts Chrono and Venom! That helps me understand where some of the dub fans are coming from a lot.

The Time Traveller · Post by **The Time Traveller** » Mon Jul 20, 2009 4:29 pm

I used to love the First English dub, It was well written, and cut in a way that kept me interested, when Funimation started dubbing they kept filler in, so, I guess I loved the heavily edited version the most. Plus Funimation's voices were terrible, and they adapted the humour poorly, it immediately made me lose interest... And after years of DBZ, I decided to buy the Season Sets and check it out, I was disappointed by the voices again, tried it in Japanese and loved it. So, other than the Saban Version, I'd never go back the dub. Saban's was an interesting less cartoony version, and of course, there's the nostalgia, and the edits today are huge jokes.

Sn4tcH · Post by **Sn4tcH** » Mon Jul 20, 2009 4:29 pm

I can narrow this down pretty simply.

A.) It's English, and I want to hear things in my own language.

B.) I do enjoy the voice actors, even though I hated them at first, they are the voices I hear in my head at this point.

C.) Minor plot details aside, DBZ is a show about people fighting. As long as Funi doesn't change what's presented in the animation, DBZ is the same. I would say the average (read: Non-hardcore) viewer cares less whether 16 human or not as much as how awesome it looks when 18 breaks Vegetas arm. Even as much as I love DBZ and the characters, I'm not under the illusion that the shows plots are anything but paper thin.

SweetCosmicPope · Post by **SweetCosmicPope** » Mon Jul 20, 2009 4:30 pm

NeptuneKai wrote:
SweetCosmicPope wrote: I honestly was thrown for a loop as to how I'd ever enjoyed watching dragonball in that form.
I too had this exact same thing happen to me. I suppose maturity could be a contributing factor to the enjoyment of the dub. I don't know how old you are but in early teenage years it seems many kids are more inclined to enjoy trash talking and random humor which are extremely common practices in the dub. I'm not saying all dub fans are immature but that could be the case in some situations. I'm fairly sure it was the case for me.

Kunzait as funny as that was this is already a touchy subject and I don't want an argument to erupt over some little joke. If possible could you try to keep it a tad more respectful then that?

25 years of age, which means when Funi started producing the show in-house, I was about 15 or 16.

Booney · Post by **Booney** » Mon Jul 20, 2009 4:34 pm

Well back in the day all I had was the dub that was aired here in the Netherlands (keep forgetting which dub we had).
At the time I don't think I had acces to the internet so all my knowledge about the series came from the dubbed series.
So I had no idea, and couldn't, know about the flaws and inconsistencies.

And to be honest when it stopped airing and even with internet acces available I never really watched the series again.
All the inconsistencies in the dubs compared with the original japanese script didn't really get my attention about a year ago when visiting daizex.com.

But still if I were to watch the series again I'd choose for the dub.
Why?

Because as you said it's got something nostalgic to it.
And mainly because I don't really care much about it, I don't watch Dragonball for an in depth story that has to stick with the "right" script.
I first watched it as a kid and didn't care about it then, now I just watch an episode for nostalgic reasons.
When I want the "real" or "correct" story I just read the manga.

So yeah, I think most dub viewers are like this.
When you grow up with the dub it sticks to you, when I watch an original episode (and I have) it doesn't grasp the emotions you got when watching the dub the first time.

NeptuneKai · Post by **NeptuneKai** » Mon Jul 20, 2009 4:35 pm

Sn4tcH wrote:
C.) Minor plot details aside, DBZ is a show about people fighting. As long as Funi doesn't change what's presented in the animation, DBZ is the same. I would say the average (read: Non-hardcore) viewer cares less whether 16 human or not as much as how awesome it looks when 18 breaks Vegetas arm. Even as much as I love DBZ and the characters, I'm not under the illusion that the shows plots are anything but paper thin.

I just find it odd that same fanbase will have issues if Naruto didn't utter the exact same phrase as he did in the Japanese version or they will complain if Luffy doesn't use the word "nakama" instead of friend. It just seems many dub fans give DBZ a free pass due to the nostalgia involved.

I'm not saying the shows plots are Shakespeare either but the dub just seems to alter and over simplify many elements making it even worse.

(Oh man you really dug way back for that quote of mine huh? I forgot I wrote that.

)

The Time Traveller · Post by **The Time Traveller** » Mon Jul 20, 2009 4:36 pm

Sn4tcH wrote:A.) It's English, and I want to hear things in my own language.

So are subtitles.

And I already tackled this in another thread, unless you don't speak English or are illiterate, or are under 15, your mind absorbs words that appear in front of you automatically, obviously not if it's an entire paragraph.

I know you didn't say anything against subtitles, and I'm not disregarding your other reasons, but I'm just trying to get this out there.

As for acting, the Japanese seiyuu convey things well with their voices, when you have subtitles, you can fix the context together rather well.

sumpter360 · Post by **sumpter360** » Mon Jul 20, 2009 4:39 pm

Hmm where to start...

Well, I prefer to watch the FUNi dub w/ Faulconer score. I was about 6 or so when I first began watching it on KidsWB or Cartoon Network or something like that, and I became very attached to it. Being a very imaginative child, I felt like I was extremely close with all the characters, so when something really intense happened, it affected me. The music in the backgound only aided these deep moments when a character was transforming, or experiencing death or whatever.
Yes, the jokes are both numerous and unneccesary almost 100% of the time, but I guess they were funny when I was young, and as I got older, the jokes stopped being funny. They did become slightly annoying, but that was just Dragonball for me, so I simply began accepting them for what they were: attempts to please the younger audiences.
As far as changed and/or missing information, I, having never seen it in Japanese, didn't realize such things existed. I'm sure, had I known that, I would've tried to view it in a way that was correct and not tampered with.
In conclusion, I guess the reason I like to watch FUNi's dub is because of nostalgia. But now that you mention all of the differences in dialogue, I really am looking forward to seeing the R1 releases of Dragonboxes in Japanese with Subtitles XD

Sn4tcH · Post by **Sn4tcH** » Mon Jul 20, 2009 4:53 pm

The Time Traveller wrote:And I already tackled this in another thread, unless you don't speak English or are illiterate, or are under 15, your mind absorbs words that appear in front of you automatically, obviously not if it's an entire paragraph.

I am 24, by the way.

The amount of people out there who will make a decision to watch something foreign based on whether it's subtitled or not would astound you. I'm not saying it's okay, in fact I consider it lazy. Personally I like to watch film subtitled, and anime dubbed... that's preference though. Even when watching film or anime, I feel a disconnect between reading and listening.

Booney said something important that sticks out to me though. My first experience with Dragonball was watching the dub of the first 13 episodes in the morning when I would get ready to for school. My second experience was watching DBZ on cartoon network.

I didn't know about dub problems and script changes until around the time when Funi started putting out the rest of the Frieza saga, and I started hanging out in forums and complaining about minor changes and stupid jokes. By the time the Cell games were on, I was so furious with the dub, I stopped watching it.

So, here's the thing, when I reached adulthood, I didn't care about DBZ anymore. When I think back on Dragonball, I think back on it like Transformers and Ninja Turtles. As something from my childhood. And for all of its imperfections and problems, the dub is the version that ended up closest to my heart. The voices, the terrible music, all of that are part of the character that is the English dub of DBZ. Do I claim it's better? No no no... I do think the voices and music of the Japanese version are far superior, but they hold no place in my memory.

NeptuneKai · Post by **NeptuneKai** » Mon Jul 20, 2009 4:56 pm

sumpter360 wrote:But now that you mention all of the differences in dialogue, I really am looking forward to seeing the R1 releases of Dragonboxes in Japanese with Subtitles XD

I'm glad I can draw a little bit of interest over to my favorite version of the show.

It seems a lot of the dub fanbase has its roots in nostalgia and general apathy towards anything other then the version that is familiar to them.
That's not a bad thing and it certainly helps me understand where this huge mass of dub fans are coming from.

Thank you very much to everyone who contributed their two cents.

Kanzenshuu

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