So everyone knows numbers were inconsistent in Z...

Amigo Ten · Post by **Amigo Ten** » Sat Aug 01, 2009 10:26 am

But what about earlier than that? Talking through another topic, I just realised that weight lifting/strength is pretty much never consistent.

For example, when Goku takes his weights off at the 23rd tournament, Krillin is shocked at how heavy they are, and seems to struggle lifting one. But they're 40 pounds each. He trained for the 21st tournament with an 40 kilo shell on his back, which is over 80 pounds.

And I know the typical "Dragonball is inconsistent. What a twist!" response, but I just realised this so I felt like telling it to someone.

rereboy · Post by **rereboy** » Sat Aug 01, 2009 3:53 pm

I think Krillin was more shocked at how Goku was able to fight at that level with those weights. When he trained for the 21st tournament he used the shell for the training but he would have a really hard time trying to fight with it.

As for struggling to lift one, he just seems to struggle because he was not expecting them to be so heavy. The same happens to me when I try to lift something that I`m expecting to be much lighter. When I already know its that heavy I use the adequate force and I struggle much less.

NeptuneKai · Post by **NeptuneKai** » Sat Aug 01, 2009 3:54 pm

rereboy wrote:I think Krillin was more shocked at how Goku was able to fight at that level with those weights. When he trained for the 21st tournament he wore the shell for the training but he would have really hard time trying to fight with it.

As for struggling to lift one, he just seems to struggle because he was not expecting that they were so heavy. The same happens to me when I try to lift something that I`m expecting to be much lighter. When I already know its that heavy I use the adequate force and I struggle much less.

Took the words right out of my mouth.

Bussani · Post by **Bussani** » Sat Aug 01, 2009 6:36 pm

I guess having the equivalent of half of one of those shells on your wrist (is that what Kuririn was picking up?) is also a bit different to having the whole thing on your back, in addition to what they said.

I can't think of any other inconsistencies off the top of my head.

Wojak · Post by **Wojak** » Sat Aug 01, 2009 6:58 pm

Do not forget that they managed to move a huge boulder a bit in the training before the 21st Tenkaichi Budokai. Not much, but...yeah.
The boulder was much, much heavier than 80 pounds, and they were a lot weaker then compared to when they fought in the 23rd Tenkaichi Budokai.
But then, Goku could crush a big piece of rock already at the beginning of Dragonball.

Bussani · Post by **Bussani** » Sat Aug 01, 2009 7:00 pm

Wojak wrote:Do not forget that they managed to move a huge boulder a bit in the training before the 21st Tenkaichi Budokai. Not much, but...yeah.
The boulder was much, much heavier than 80 pounds, and they were a lot weaker then compared to when they fought in the 23rd Tenkaichi Budokai.
But then, Goku could crush a big piece of rock already at the beginning of Dragonball.

Moving a big rock a wearing it on a limb would probably be quite different. Much less jumping around and fighting while wearing it.

Tyro · Post by **Tyro** » Sat Aug 01, 2009 7:02 pm

Bussani wrote:I guess having the equivalent of half of one of those shells on your wrist (is that what Kuririn was picking up?) is also a bit different to having the whole thing on your back, in addition to what they said.

Kuririn was picking up his boot. Goku said that they were 20(+?) kilograms each (44 pounds), and Tenshinhan stated that everything altogether weighed over 100 kilograms (220+ pounds).

I don't understand how VIZ could have been so sloppy with the conversions. 44 =/= 40 and "over 200" =/= "over 220". But I'm nitpicky.

Amigo Ten · Post by **Amigo Ten** » Sat Aug 01, 2009 7:02 pm

Krillin managed to do impossible amounts of manual labour while carrying 80 pounds on his back, I'd imagine he could fight like that too.

And struggling to hold it because the weight was unexpected suggests he would have to prepare himself to lift it in the first place, and it seems like lifting 40 pounds shouldn't take much, if any, extraneous effort by that point. When Roshi handed them their 80 pound shells he was holding them like they were nothing.

Amigo Ten · Post by **Amigo Ten** » Sat Aug 01, 2009 7:07 pm

Tyro wrote:
Bussani wrote:I guess having the equivalent of half of one of those shells on your wrist (is that what Kuririn was picking up?) is also a bit different to having the whole thing on your back, in addition to what they said.
Kuririn was picking up his boot. He said that they were 20(+?) kilograms each. Tenshinhan stated that everything altogether weighed over 100 kilograms (220+ pounds).

And I don't understand how VIZ could have been so sloppy with the conversions. "Over 200" =/= "Over 220". But I'm nitpicky.

Ah yes. Now that I look the it is 20 kilos rather than 40 pounds. But it's not a huge difference. Actually it makes the comparison easier. One of Goku's weights is half the weight of the shells they wore for the second half of their training with Roshi. I don't see that Krillin, and Tien by the way, should have trouble lifting them, unexpected or not.

rereboy · Post by **rereboy** » Sat Aug 01, 2009 7:08 pm

Amigo Ten wrote:Krillin managed to do impossible amounts of manual labour while carrying 80 pounds on his back, I'd imagine he could fight like that too.

And struggling to hold it because the weight was unexpected suggests he would have to prepare himself to lift it in the first place, and it seems like lifting 40 pounds shouldn't take much, if any, extraneous effort by that point. When Roshi handed them their 80 pound shells he was holding them like they were nothing.

Fight like Goku had just fought against Tien? I do not think so.

And I do not think he was struggling to hold it. Just to lift it, because no one expects a piece of clothing to weight that much and therefore he was using much less force than the adequate to lift it.

The manga page is ambiguous... (don`t trust this translation btw)

But I think that krillin struggles just because he wasn`t expecting such a weight.

Amigo Ten · Post by **Amigo Ten** » Sat Aug 01, 2009 7:21 pm

Well, obviously after that scene I wouldn't expect Krillin to fight like Goku did with the weights on. He put the boots on seemed to think it would be nigh on impossible to move about in them.

It's just before that scene I wouldn't have thought it would be any problem for him. He plowed fields, delivered milk, and did construction work with his bare hands all day carrying the same amount of weight as those two boots on his back, 6 years before. The weight distribution is different, but still.

Bussani · Post by **Bussani** » Sat Aug 01, 2009 7:29 pm

Direct linking to Mangafox doesn't work.

I think the distribution makes all the difference. Carrying something on your back is quite different to strapping it to your feet. But I guess Toriyama could have picked different numbers to make it more impressive.

Amigo Ten · Post by **Amigo Ten** » Sat Aug 01, 2009 7:39 pm

Bussani wrote:Carrying something on your back is quite different to strapping it to your feet.

I know, but considering Krillin was fine with the weight on his back (he could move around at a normal human level at the very least), and how much time had passed and how much power he'd gained, it still seems silly to me that he'd have that reaction to 20 kilos shoes.

Super Sonic · Post by **Super Sonic** » Sat Aug 01, 2009 8:02 pm

Tyro wrote:
Bussani wrote:I guess having the equivalent of half of one of those shells on your wrist (is that what Kuririn was picking up?) is also a bit different to having the whole thing on your back, in addition to what they said.
Kuririn was picking up his boot. Goku said that they were 20(+?) kilograms each (44 pounds), and Tenshinhan stated that everything altogether weighed over 100 kilograms (220+ pounds).

I don't understand how VIZ could have been so sloppy with the conversions. 44 =/= 40 and "over 200" =/= "over 220". But I'm nitpicky.

Americans tend to be sloppy when it comes to the metric system.

And I do not think he was struggling to hold it. Just to lift it, because no one expects a piece of clothing to weight that much and therefore he was using much less force than the adequate to lift it.

Makes sense. At one con lifted a girl for pic and she was heavier than she looked and was caught by surprise.

Bussani · Post by **Bussani** » Sat Aug 01, 2009 8:10 pm

I wouldn't call the conversion sloppy. They probably just rounded it down. 44, 40, it doesn't make a huge difference. It'd probably be weird for Goku to say "They weigh exactly 44 pounds each!"

Tyro · Post by **Tyro** » Sat Aug 01, 2009 9:36 pm

Bussani wrote:I wouldn't call the conversion sloppy. They probably just rounded it down. 44, 40, it doesn't make a huge difference. It'd probably be weird for Goku to say "They weigh exactly 44 pounds each!"

Well, that wouldn't be correct anyway.

They should have just left it in kilos like they did with the turtle shell.

smiley · Post by **smiley** » Sat Aug 01, 2009 10:31 pm

Roshi running barely 20 m/s, but moving faster than a human eye can perceive on the 21st tournament.

Wojak · Post by **Wojak** » Sun Aug 02, 2009 11:15 am

smiley wrote:Roshi running barely 20 m/s, but moving faster than a human eye can perceive on the 21st tournament.

70 km/h is fast and hard to follow with your eyes if the person moves here and there all the time, for short distances.

smiley · Post by **smiley** » Sun Aug 02, 2009 4:29 pm

Wojak wrote:
smiley wrote:Roshi running barely 20 m/s, but moving faster than a human eye can perceive on the 21st tournament.
70 km/h is fast and hard to follow with your eyes if the person moves here and there all the time, for short distances.

You have cars in real life travelling far faster than that. Are they fast enough to leave after-images or to be completely imperceptible to a human eye? Of course not. Roshi is far faster than that.

rereboy · Post by **rereboy** » Sun Aug 02, 2009 4:52 pm

smiley wrote:
Wojak wrote:
smiley wrote:Roshi running barely 20 m/s, but moving faster than a human eye can perceive on the 21st tournament.
70 km/h is fast and hard to follow with your eyes if the person moves here and there all the time, for short distances.
You have cars in real life travelling far faster than that. Are they fast enough to leave after-images or to be completely imperceptible to a human eye? Of course not. Roshi is far faster than that.

What he meant was that if two people are fighting and running in a large room (the fighting arena at that time was not that big) at a constant speed of 70 km/h, in front of you, you will have a real hard time trying to follow their movements and see all that they are doing.

Its like a small car doing 70 km/h in a room constantly but managing to avoid the walls and everything else, while keeping up with that speed, and fighting head to head with another car moving at the same speed.

As for being completely invisible by moving fast, Goku only managed to do that by the 22nd tournament, to much amazement of Roshi who thought it was incredible that he could completely disappear by using his speed. Roshi could not do the same.

As for the after-images, they are a technique, and not just the effects of speed. Therefore skill and ki is involved, not just speed.