Plotholes of GT. What exactly are they?

[SHINOBI-03]

When there's a discussion about GT, plotholes are always brought up as a reason why it sucks.

But...

What exactly are they to begin with?!

Please leave the "producers and writers wanted it this way" excuse out of this. Let's try and make this In-Universe discussion.

01- Pilaf and Co. are alive despite being bad guys. How? The Earth and everyone else were destroyed by Boo, and then Porunga revived all the "good" guys. Were Pilaf and Co. good guys all these years till someone brought up the BS Dragon Balls to them?

02- There are Dragon Balls hidden in Kami's palace that are able to be detected using a regular Dragon Radar. If so, how come no one payed attention to them? And why they didn't show up before?!

03- If Pan is unable to turn Super Saiyan due to lack of Saiyan blood or so to speak, how come her "grandson" was able to when he got even less Saiyan blood than her?!

04- Gohan can turn Super Saiyan. One theory I have is he got even weaker than before due to lack of training, and his unlocked powers faded away as the time went by.

05- #17 was brought under Dr. Gero's control. I have no idea.

06- Everyone in hell got his own body when they are supposed to be cloudy spirits. Maybe they are too strong for the cleaning process and that's why they kept them?!

07- Vegeta's hair style should not be changed. What's the problem with this one?! He said a pure Saiyan's hair reaches a limit for it's growth, but he didn't say you can't cut it short...!

08- Kuririn is revived by Shen Long again when he should not be able to. Maybe it's because it's the "final wish" before going out of order for a hundred years, and he made an exception just this time?

09- Oob wore a helmet in the TenkaIchi Budokai when it's not allowed to have any protection gears in the arena. Umm...... someone wasn't paying attention...?!!


Well, those are the only ones I could think of. What else is there?!

[The Time Traveller]

I found when ever they're suddenly slow and can't fly should be plot holes. Sure Goku tried Shunkan Ido to get to their space ship when it was being taken away, but it would have been easy for him to fly there, pick up the space ship and fly back to his friends.

And when they're jumping on rooftops, why not just fly over the city?! They're not trying to avoid being detected on scouters are they?

[Silver Sinspawn]

Pilaf isn't really that evil. And its been speculated only males can go SSJ.

Also:
Major Metallitron can fly and is in hell
Android 19 is in hell
Cooler is in GT

[Echo64]

Not sure if this is a plot hole but Goten and Trunks. You can't just take two people who were the best of friends in Z and then have them pretty much not even acknowledge each other in GT.

I know they talked a bit but come on, what happened?

[Rocketman]

Not sure if this is a plot hole but Goten and Trunks. You can't just take two people who were the best of friends in Z and then have them pretty much not even acknowledge each other in GT.

I know they talked a bit but come on, what happened?

Passage of time. People fall out of friendships all the time.

[Herms]

03- If Pan is unable to turn Super Saiyan due to lack of Saiyan blood or so to speak, how come her "grandson" was able to when he got even less Saiyan blood than her?!

Well, the Daizenshuu 7 line in question is kinda open to interpretation: "Being a quarter [Saiyan], though she's never become an Oozaru or Super Saiyan, her Saiyan blood gives her outstanding fighting talent". Does that necessarily mean she couldn't ever become Super Saiyan?

Either way, the makers of GT did believe Pan could potentially become one. In the GT Perfect Files Vol.1's section on Super Saiyans, there's a part where it says that both Pan and Bra ought to be able to transform into Super Saiyans, given the right conditions.

05- #17 was brought under Dr. Gero's control. I have no idea.

It's been awhile since I've seen those episodes, but I thought it was shown that the new No.17 that Gero and Mu made in Hell was controlling the mind of the original No.17.

06- Everyone in hell got his own body when they are supposed to be cloudy spirits. Maybe they are too strong for the cleaning process and that's why they kept them?!

Well, that's kinda a problem with how Hell is portrayed in the anime in general (minus the original episode where Goku falls into Hell).

[Echo64]

Not sure if this is a plot hole but Goten and Trunks. You can't just take two people who were the best of friends in Z and then have them pretty much not even acknowledge each other in GT.

I know they talked a bit but come on, what happened?

Passage of time. People fall out of friendships all the time.

That could explain it, the point is that they don't give me any reasons to think that, which makes it a plot hole, for me anyway.

[Kaboom]

03- If Pan is unable to turn Super Saiyan due to lack of Saiyan blood or so to speak, how come her "grandson" was able to when he got even less Saiyan blood than her?!

Well, the Daizenshuu 7 line in question is kinda open to interpretation: "Being a quarter [Saiyan], though she's never become an Oozaru or Super Saiyan, her Saiyan blood gives her outstanding fighting talent". Does that necessarily mean she couldn't ever become Super Saiyan?

If we take the series' word for it that Super Saiyan is hereditary, then that might explain why Pan can't transform right off the bat. Thanks to the Old Kaioshin, Gohan no longer had a Super Saiyan ability to pass down when Pan was conceived (in the manga anyway; GT's random re-gifting of it to him notwithstanding). So if Pan ever wants to transform, she'd probably have to work her butt off for it like Goku, Vegeta, and Gohan did.

As for Bra, she may very well have the ability. But since she takes after her mom and never trains, she'd likewise probably never even discover it.

Not sure if this is a plot hole but Goten and Trunks. You can't just take two people who were the best of friends in Z and then have them pretty much not even acknowledge each other in GT.
I know they talked a bit but come on, what happened?

Passage of time. People fall out of friendships all the time.

They were still friends in GT. But they were both adults by then, too, who each had their own stuff going on. So it's not like when they were kids and would be hanging out and playing "showdown" all day non-stop.

[Godo]

Just for the heck of it I'll give these a try. It's not that I like DBGT that much, but anyways, it's fun to try to piece things together.

01- Pilaf and Co. are alive despite being bad guys. How? The Earth and everyone else were destroyed by Boo, and then Porunga revived all the "good" guys. Were Pilaf and Co. good guys all these years till someone brought up the BS Dragon Balls to them?

Pilaf himself isn't purely evil. I think the question is where the line is drawn, since if every person with evil in their heart wouldn't be resurrected, only one hundred people would be resurrected (a point that is backed up by the Devilmite beam).
Pilaf, whilst being slightly evil, only naively aims for one goal, and I doubt that he really understands his evil deeds.
For one, sexually, he is pure, so that's got to count, right?

02- There are Dragon Balls hidden in Kami's palace that are able to be detected using a regular Dragon Radar. If so, how come no one payed attention to them? And why they didn't show up before?!

The black cloak over it may have concealed it's electromagnetic energy? Remember that if it's within living tissue it won't be detected, so the cloak may have been made for them not to be found.

03- If Pan is unable to turn Super Saiyan due to lack of Saiyan blood or so to speak, how come her "grandson" was able to when he got even less Saiyan blood than her?!

Because of that she is a girl. Also because of that she lacks concentration, discipline and dedication. Those three factors play a role into transforming.
She is a horrible character and I hate her.

04- Gohan can turn Super Saiyan. One theory I have is he got even weaker than before due to lack of training, and his unlocked powers faded away as the time went by.

The real Gohan went and replaced Kaioshin, since Kaioshin became Kibitoshin. This is kept quiet.
So they cloned him and put a weak clone in his place. This is why no one notices it, and why he hasn't got the "Mystic form".
The powerup is permanent, in my mind, so this is the best explanation.

05- #17 was brought under Dr. Gero's control. I have no idea.

He knew the small mechanical parts that existed in No. 17's body, so he could have used them to elicit an electrical wave from which he could control his brain.

06- Everyone in hell got his own body when they are supposed to be cloudy spirits. Maybe they are too strong for the cleaning process and that's why they kept them?!

This is linked to the anime universe, which is why they kept their bodies.

07- Vegeta's hair style should not be changed. What's the problem with this one?! He said a pure Saiyan's hair reaches a limit for it's growth, but he didn't say you can't cut it short...!

Exactly, he didn't say that you can't cut it. Goku's hair gets cut once in Dragonball when he is a kid.

08- Kuririn is revived by Shen Long again when he should not be able to. Maybe it's because it's the "final wish" before going out of order for a hundred years, and he made an exception just this time?

I guess so. But another possibility is that Dende changed his mistake from before. Remember that he said prior to the Cell Games that he forgott to add the feature that everyone that were killed once and brought back, could be brought back again.

09- Oob wore a helmet in the TenkaIchi Budokai when it's not allowed to have any protection gears in the arena. Umm...... someone wasn't paying attention...?!!

The rules may have changed, or the helmet was made out of really starched cloth.

Major Metallitron can fly and is in hell

He learned to fly in hell, and has some living tissue so that he can have a soul. (I don't know).

Android 19 is in hell

He was maybe modeled after a dead guy, so the dead guy's soul attached to the Android body, or some other Japanese soul transfer theory.

Cooler is in GT

Because of that GT is a continuation of Movie 5.


Well, the explanations were not that good but at least I tried.

[Kaboom]

I think I'll take a shot at answering them too, without looking closely at anyone else's answers first so I don't inadvertently swipe them.

01- Pilaf and Co. are alive despite being bad guys. How? The Earth and everyone else were destroyed by Boo, and then Porunga revived all the "good" guys. Were Pilaf and Co. good guys all these years till someone brought up the BS Dragon Balls to them?

Viz worded the wish as saying, "except for the very evil ones!" If Shenlong considers Vegeta enough of a "good guy" by then, then it's possible that Pilaf never quite registered very high on the "evil deeds" scale. In the big picture, he wouldn't be seen as much more than a "troublemaker."

02- There are Dragon Balls hidden in Kami's palace that are able to be detected using a regular Dragon Radar. If so, how come no one payed attention to them? And why they didn't show up before?!

1. They may have been magically hidden somehow.
2. They may emit a different energy signal than the regular Dragon Balls which the Dragon Radar wasn't previously adjusted for.

03- If Pan is unable to turn Super Saiyan due to lack of Saiyan blood or so to speak, how come her "grandson" was able to when he got even less Saiyan blood than her?!

See my answer above. If Pan, or even her child, had to really work for Super Saiyan, then it'd just get passed on to Goku Jr.

04- Gohan can turn Super Saiyan. One theory I have is he got even weaker than before due to lack of training, and his unlocked powers faded away as the time went by.

My theory's something like that. It's not just that he's gotten weaker, but the 'Ultimate' form itself is something that he'd need to train with to keep up. Otherwise, after 15 years of disuse Gohan's power is slowly started to shift itself back into its natural layout, which is via Super Saiyan transformations. He seems to have an incredibly powerful base state (outright tanking attacks from SSj Baby-Gohan with no problem) so it's possible it all hasn't completely reverted yet. He could have a massively powerful base form which Super Saiyan only about doubles, instead of a low one that gets multiplied by 50.

05- #17 was brought under Dr. Gero's control. I have no idea.

... Me neither.

06- Everyone in hell got his own body when they are supposed to be cloudy spirits. Maybe they are too strong for the cleaning process and that's why they kept them?!

That's possible. I think it's also possible that the very, very, VERY bad ones get kept around to be punished in some form first before eventually being reincarnated. Like, "you're not getting off THAT easy!" Didn't we see torture equipment or something while Goku was fighting Freeza and Cell in there? The ice or what-not?

07- Vegeta's hair style should not be changed. What's the problem with this one?! He said a pure Saiyan's hair reaches a limit for it's growth, but he didn't say you can't cut it short...!

Toriyama graciously informed us recently that Saiyan hair DOES change with age. Nappa naturally went bald, and it's possible Vegeta's hair became more susceptible to style changes. That would account for the mustache of doom.

08- Kuririn is revived by Shen Long again when he should not be able to. Maybe it's because it's the "final wish" before going out of order for a hundred years, and he made an exception just this time?

Yeah, Shenlong's making his very last wish for the next hundred years. He probably thought, "well... I guess I should bring this guy back for them, too. No need to be a dick about this."

09- Oob wore a helmet in the TenkaIchi Budokai when it's not allowed to have any protection gears in the arena. Umm...... someone wasn't paying attention...?!!

Maybe the rules changed.

[Herms]

Re: No.19 and Metallic in Hell, perhaps in the DB world robots have souls. Is there anything saying they don't?

If we take the series' word for it that Super Saiyan is hereditary

When's it say that?

Viz worded the wish as saying, "except for the very evil ones!"

Yeah, that's accurate. So we could just assume that Pilaf and co. didn't count as "very" evil. By the way, does anyone question what qualifications Shenlong has to judge these things? Who died and made him the judge of good and evil? Well, I suppose he could somehow consult with Enma on these matters (though it's not like we're ever told what qualifications Enma has to be judge either).

[Kaboom]

If we take the series' word for it that Super Saiyan is hereditary

When's it say that?

I'unno. I think it's usually just assumed since Goten and Trunks were born with it for nothing.

[the_abberration]

01- Pilaf and Co. are alive despite being bad guys. How? The Earth and everyone else were destroyed by Boo, and then Porunga revived all the "good" guys. Were Pilaf and Co. good guys all these years till someone brought up the BS Dragon Balls to them?

They were more comic relief villains than real ones. Like Otis from Superman. So for comparison if the wish was made, Lex Luthor wouldn't come back but Otis would.

02- There are Dragon Balls hidden in Kami's palace that are able to be detected using a regular Dragon Radar. If so, how come no one payed attention to them? And why they didn't show up before?!

The balls can't be detected in Kami's lookout maybe??

03- If Pan is unable to turn Super Saiyan due to lack of Saiyan blood or so to speak, how come her "grandson" was able to when he got even less Saiyan blood than her?!

Maybe males can tap the ability better than females?

04- Gohan can turn Super Saiyan. One theory I have is he got even weaker than before due to lack of training, and his unlocked powers faded away as the time went by.

It was a magical upgrade. Magic wears off like fusion and the earrings (if you feel Buu's magical abilities counteracted them). When Gohan was brought back to life (or when he was absorbed by Buu), he lost the "mystic" ability.

05- #17 was brought under Dr. Gero's control. I have no idea.

Dr. Gero used Hell #17 to override Earth #17, in much the same way that Lore overrode Data in Star Trek: TNG.

06- Everyone in hell got his own body when they are supposed to be cloudy spirits. Maybe they are too strong for the cleaning process and that's why they kept them?!

Individuals who can manipulate Ki or who are very strong can have their spirit take the form of their original bodies?

07- Vegeta's hair style should not be changed. What's the problem with this one?! He said a pure Saiyan's hair reaches a limit for it's growth, but he didn't say you can't cut it short...!

Don't know if it is relevant, but I remember reading an issue of Wolverine where he shaved himself bald to go under cover. By the end of the story his hair grew back to the length it originally was. I see Vegeta's hair working in similar fashion.

08- Kuririn is revived by Shen Long again when he should not be able to. Maybe it's because it's the "final wish" before going out of order for a hundred years, and he made an exception just this time?

The dragon was no longer bound by Dende's strength level at that point, so he could grant that wish maybe?

09- Oob wore a helmet in the TenkaIchi Budokai when it's not allowed to have any protection gears in the arena. Umm...... someone wasn't paying attention...?!!

Mr Satan has influence with the rules.

[The Tori-bot]

08- Kuririn is revived by Shen Long again when he should not be able to. Maybe it's because it's the "final wish" before going out of order for a hundred years, and he made an exception just this time?

Yeah, Shenlong's making his very last wish for the next hundred years. He probably thought, "well... I guess I should bring this guy back for them, too. No need to be a dick about this."

But... if he was capable of doing it, then why had he never done it earlier? Before the end of GT it was well-established that Shen Long couldn't bring people back more than once. Shenl Long thinking "Ah well, might as well do it, no more Dragon Balls and all that" wouldn't even enter into the equation, since he was incapable of doing it. Take a look at the end of the Cell Game: in retrospect, wouldn't that make Shen Long look like a bit of a dick for not bringing Goku back? I know Goku asked not to be brought back, but that was before everyone asked Shen Long to return him to life and he said it was impossible.

Then again, Dende just might'a added that in when Earth's DBs got upgraded to three wishes in the seven years between Cell and Buu.

[Cipher]

I have some mad love for GT, and I really think most of these can be explained. I'll be straight when I think one is an actual plothole though.

01- Pilaf and Co. are alive despite being bad guys. How? The Earth and everyone else were destroyed by Boo, and then Porunga revived all the "good" guys. Were Pilaf and Co. good guys all these years till someone brought up the BS Dragon Balls to them?

This is basically a plothole. I think the best explanation is the common one that, as comedy-relief villains, they simply weren't "bad" enough to not be revived by the wish. (Although they did try to cook three kids alive, but whatever.)

02- There are Dragon Balls hidden in Kami's palace that are able to be detected using a regular Dragon Radar. If so, how come no one payed attention to them? And why they didn't show up before?!

Kami's Palace violates all kinds of laws of the universe. The balls seem to be hidden deep within the temple's innards, so it's not hard to believe that the radar simply couldn't detect them. This is the same place which contains an infinitely expansive, time-bending room after all.

03- If Pan is unable to turn Super Saiyan due to lack of Saiyan blood or so to speak, how come her "grandson" was able to when he got even less Saiyan blood than her?!

This is only a plothole if you take the word of the guide books as the gospel. If you're simply going by the series itself, which you should be, Pan simply never went Super Saiyan. Maybe it's a gender thing, maybe she was never angry enough. Whatever the case, it just didn't pan out. Eh? Eeeeeeh?

04- Gohan can turn Super Saiyan. One theory I have is he got even weaker than before due to lack of training, and his unlocked powers faded away as the time went by.

This one always, always comes up, and I've never seen a problem with it. We know jack-all about the Old Kaioshin's power-up. Is it permanent? Does it fade with lack of training? Gohan hasn't committed himself to martial arts in over fifteen years by the time we see him in GT. If Toei wants to say that the power-up has faded by then, there's absolutely nothing to prove them wrong.

05- #17 was brought under Dr. Gero's control. I have no idea.

There was apparently some sort of psychic link between the original #17 and Hell's #17. Kind of bullshitty, but no more so than all the other random moments of psychic ability to pop up over the course of the series.

06- Everyone in hell got his own body when they are supposed to be cloudy spirits. Maybe they are too strong for the cleaning process and that's why they kept them?!

The anime universe is not the manga universe. The anime is never consistent with the rules for its version of Hell. GT simply follows suit.

07- Vegeta's hair style should not be changed. What's the problem with this one?! He said a pure Saiyan's hair reaches a limit for it's growth, but he didn't say you can't cut it short...!

Yep, he simply cuts it. This was covered in another topic not too long ago. Everything Vegeta says about Saiyan hair implies that it has a template from birth that it will always grow back to, but it's not as though it can't be cut. Vegeta just maintains his hairdo in GT, probably to better fit in with the Earthlings.

08- Kuririn is revived by Shen Long again when he should not be able to. Maybe it's because it's the "final wish" before going out of order for a hundred years, and he made an exception just this time?

Shen-Long's rules seemed to go by the wayside as soon as the Minus Energy was released.

09- Oob wore a helmet in the TenkaIchi Budokai when it's not allowed to have any protection gears in the arena. Umm...... someone wasn't paying attention...?!!

The rules change every damn year. Sometimes the tournaments are five years apart, sometimes three. Sometimes there's a junior division, sometimes there's not, etc.

Well, those are the only ones I could think of. What else is there?!

Some of the dead villain cameos in the Super 17 arc make no sense. I'm willing to admit that those are straight-up plotholes with no good explanation.

But... if he was capable of doing it, then why had he never done it earlier? Before the end of GT it was well-established that Shen Long couldn't bring people back more than once. Shenl Long thinking "Ah well, might as well do it, no more Dragon Balls and all that" wouldn't even enter into the equation, since he was incapable of doing it. Take a look at the end of the Cell Game: in retrospect, wouldn't that make Shen Long look like a bit of a dick for not bringing Goku back? I know Goku asked not to be brought back, but that was before everyone asked Shen Long to return him to life and he said it was impossible.

1) Shen-Long is kind of a dick. He's not there to be a nice guy. He's there to grant wishes within the limits of his power. Like the gods of the universe when there isn't a silly-putty demon running around, he's not obligated to take particular interest in the characters' personal problems.

2) He's literally unbound from the Dragon Balls at the end of GT. It's very, every easy to assume it allowed him to bypass rules he couldn't before. As to why he'd take particular interest this time, he obviously had a very intimate deal going on with Goku. It's not that Shen-Long particularly cared about bringing Krillin back, it's that the mystically not-dead Goku did.

[NeoKING]

As much as I love GT - more than Z, in fact - I never understood how Kid Goku GT couldn't do the Instant Movement but he could become a SSJ and even a SSJ3.

[Rory]

As much as I love GT - more than Z, in fact

...Wha?
-rubs eyes-
...What?!

[Cipher]

...Wha?
-rubs eyes-
...What?!

Well, it is an objectively more well-made anime than Z.

[Bussani]

This is only a plothole if you take the word of the guide books as the gospel. If you're simply going by the series itself, which you should be, Pan simply never went Super Saiyan.

Isn't that exactly what the guides say, though?

[Kaboom]

This is only a plothole if you take the word of the guide books as the gospel. If you're simply going by the series itself, which you should be, Pan simply never went Super Saiyan.

Isn't that exactly what the guides say, though?

I think he means the instance where a guidebook said she never transformed because her Saiyan blood was too diluted.