The video quality of Dragon Box spoil anyone else?

[pjay]

I mean for other cel based anime. After seeing an example of the Animego version of the macross 1983 series vs the Japanese R2 counterparts. You can see film-grain on the region 2 version (and more detail) where as on the Region 1 counterpart it has no (or little) grain and less detail. Granted this is from two different generation of masters, but still. I just wonder how many anime companies use DVNR to supposedly clean up for film grain when releasing cel based anime to DVD (and maybe even blu-ray) both in Japan and abroad.

[gotensottile]

I mean for other cel based anime. After seeing an example of the Animego version of the macross 1983 series vs the Japanese R2 counterparts. You can see film-grain on the region 2 version (and more detail) where as on the Region 1 counterpart it has no (or little) grain and less detail. Granted this is from two different generation of masters, but still. I just wonder how many anime companies use DVNR to supposedly clean up for film grain when releasing cel based anime to DVD (and maybe even blu-ray) both in Japan and abroad.

In Japan, film grain is considered part of the picture, while it isn't in America.

[Gaffer Tape]

Don't paint with so broad a brush. It certainly is considered part of the picture in America, but by people who actually know what they're talking about. You're going to find uninformed morons in any camp. The problem is that the "crystal clear digital video" has become the new "in" thing, so studios are trying to cater to that fad by attempting to make everything look like it, even retroactively. But there are a lot of cinematographers who are purposely shooting with grainier film just because they've become annoyed at this new trend.

[Metalwario64]

Don't paint with so broad a brush. It certainly is considered part of the picture in America, but by people who actually know what they're talking about. You're going to find uninformed morons in any camp. The problem is that the "crystal clear digital video" has become the new "in" thing, so studios are trying to cater to that fad by attempting to make everything look like it, even retroactively. But there are a lot of cinematographers who are purposely shooting with grainier film just because they've become annoyed at this new trend.

Well, beat me to it. I mean, I've even seen YouTube videos with angry Americans complaining about said uninformed morons.

[pjay]

Don't paint with so broad a brush. It certainly is considered part of the picture in America, but by people who actually know what they're talking about. You're going to find uninformed morons in any camp. The problem is that the "crystal clear digital video" has become the new "in" thing, so studios are trying to cater to that fad by attempting to make everything look like it, even retroactively. But there are a lot of cinematographers who are purposely shooting with grainier film just because they've become annoyed at this new trend.

I wasn't trying to be so broad with my statement or to say that the Japanese know what they are doing and the U.S. or other countries don't when it comes to film presentation. I was just saying with cel-based anime the US (and possibly other countries) tend to think that they are improving the picture quality when they are doing the opposite. In a similar case Paramount is doing an Exchange for the Blu Ray version of Gladiator because the original was too heavy on DVNR in the original master, so they just struck a new 4k master and will be puting it to Blu ray. I'm not saying that they should offer an exchange program for anime, I'm just saying it's too much of a wasted effort, on something that shouldn't be done in the first place.

[Metalwario64]

I wasn't trying to be so broad with my statement or to say that the Japanese know what they are doing and the U.S. or other countries don't when it comes to film presentation.

I'm pretty sure he was referring to gotensottile's statement. At least, I was.

[Innagadadavida]

This is asinine and ignorant. It's not an entire country making these decisions. I guarantee you there are people in Japan who believe using DVNR is a good idea, and people in the United States who believe it's not. Quit limiting entire countries to beliefs you perceive the majority to be. And quit parroting ideas you've heard without doing any research or personally evaluating the situation.

If somebody doesn't like grain, they don't fucking like grain. That's their opinion. They're not wrong. You're not right. And vice versa. Obviously enough people felt it was a hinderence or DVNR wouldn't exist and/or be used. Don't act like it's ruining something because it's artificial or whatever. Digital, DVNR, analog, film, grain. They're all inventions by human beings, designed for entertainment purposes. None of it is real. None of it is more authentic than the other.

Oh and FYI, I don't care one way or the other. I'm not on either side. I'm on the side of not-being-stupid.

[OutlawTorn]

I don't think the video quality of the Dragon Box has spoiled me for any animé other than Dragon Ball. It goes without saying that it is definitely superior to the DBZ season sets and I cannot wait until all seven have been released, but I wouldn't compare the Dragon Box quality to domestic releases of, say... Naruto, which I think looks really good as it is.

The only reason the Dragon Box is as highly regarded is because of the significant difference in quality between their masters and anything else we have had domestically. Had the FUNimation-released DVDs had Dragon Box quality from the start (bilingual, completely uncut), I doubt there would be as much demand for the Dragon Boxes outside of the overall presentation.

Using the Naruto example above, if I saw side-by-side comparisons of the Japanese and Viz DVD releases and there was as extreme a difference in the quality, I'd definitely want the best possible quality but just Dragon Box vs. Naruto... no, that's not really a fair comparison.

[VegettoEX]

This is asinine and ignorant. It's not an entire country making these decisions. I guarantee you there are people in Japan who believe using DVNR is a good idea, and people in the United States who believe it's not. Quit limiting entire countries to beliefs you perceive the majority to be. And quit parroting ideas you've heard without doing any research or personally evaluating the situation.

If somebody doesn't like grain, they don't fucking like grain. That's their opinion. They're not wrong. You're not right. And vice versa. Obviously enough people felt it was a hinderence or DVNR wouldn't exist and/or be used. Don't act like it's ruining something because it's artificial or whatever. Digital, DVNR, analog, film, grain. They're all inventions by human beings, designed for entertainment purposes. None of it is real. None of it is more authentic than the others.

That seems to be defensiveness shrouded in dismissiveness. And it's very silly of you.

Are there probably people in Japan who think heavy DVNR is good? Of course. At the same time...

Look at the kinds of remasterings that anime gets in Japan in recent history. Take a large, sweeping look at it. Look at the Macross Plus remaster. Look at the Cowboy Bebop remaster. Look at the Utena remaster. What do you see in those? Bright, bold colors. Progressive transfers. And what's that? Oh, right -- a hint of the film that's inherently a part of the image .

(I'd be happy to provide example screen shots of any of those, by the way...)

As a whole, it definitely seems that Japan is taking a different approach with it -- it's a generalization, but generalizations exist for a reason (usually because there's some basis in reality).

I don't understand your attitude of running in, arms waving, saying the conversation is asinine, and then concluding by saying you don't even care. Yes, you do care. You responded for a reason, and it's not just because you don't like stupid things. It got under your skin for some reason, and you don't like how it makes you feel... right?

[Cipher]

Honestly, when it comes down to something like the Dragon Box and an adequate grain-softening like the TV special double-feature got, I don't care much either way.

For that matter, I prefer the way things look without grain. Film grain has always been, and will always be, distracting to me. Unfortunately there's no feasible way to remove it without hindering the image in some other way. So I'll take it at its most minimum. The Dragon Boxes seem to provide that.

[Innagadadavida]

I don't understand your attitude of running in, arms waving, saying the conversation is asinine, and then concluding by saying you don't even care. Yes, you do care. You responded for a reason, and it's not just because you don't like stupid things. It got under your skin for some reason, and you don't like how it makes you feel... right?

Well, I don't care about DVNR. I prefer Dragon Box type remastering. It's certainly a helluva lot more respectable.

I was "running in, arms waving" because of the generalizations more than anything. I'm just annoyed by these types of conversations I guess; kids going, well JAPAN does this and AMERICA does this. No, they are companies comprised of people who happen to be from Japan, and companies comprised of people who happen to be from America. I assume they make decisions based on precedent and funding. Not because of where they're from. On second thought though, maybe that's what ya'll meant all along, I don't know. I guess I just feel like people lose sight of that.

I need to start elaborating more...

I'll contribute a little to the topic at hand. Because Japanese companies charge SO much more for their products, It only makes sense that they'd do extensive, non-automated remastering projects. To make the product worth that enormous fee, in theory. American anime fans get all the benefits of that when licensing companies get a hold of those remastering jobs and charge the normal price here in the states for it. The only people who really lose in this situation is the Japanese consumer. I guess, in a way, we've all been spoiled by the Dragon Boxes. Because when American companies can't afford that type of remastering, and when they use DVNR to try to make the picture look better to a casual audience, they get all kinds of fingers wagged at them from those in the know. Although, I don't have any specific examples of this, other than the orange bricks (which don't qualify as acceptable remastering), I can only assume that it has occured, given that it seems to be what people are talking about.

On that note, my opinion on that is... So what? So what if a company used DVNR to make something old look new? Does it still look good? If so, then why does it matter? Is it because it's "artificial?" Is it because it "removes grain which is part of the picture?" Those questions don't matter to me. I'm not concerned if grain is there or not. Grain is just grain. Like pickles on a burger. I'll eat it. But I don't care if it's there or not.

Pickles or grain don't enhance or detract from the experience, in my opinion. But I don't think pickles are any less of a valid hamburger topping. Long story short, DVNR gets a bad rep... I don't agree that it's a bad thing.

[TonyTheTiger]

Look at the kinds of remasterings that anime gets in Japan in recent history. Take a large, sweeping look at it. Look at the Macross Plus remaster. Look at the Cowboy Bebop remaster. Look at the Utena remaster. What do you see in those? Bright, bold colors. Progressive transfers. And what's that? Oh, right -- a hint of the film that's inherently a part of the image .

(I'd be happy to provide example screen shots of any of those, by the way...)

As a whole, it definitely seems that Japan is taking a different approach with it -- it's a generalization, but generalizations exist for a reason (usually because there's some basis in reality).

But that's only a half truth because it ignores the plethora of western animation productions that don't apply DVNR despite how cheap it is. The entire DC Animated Universe not only didn't use DVNR, it kept it pure to the point of using the original masters exactly as they were. Same goes for the numerous box set releases of old 80s and early 90s cartoons.

DVNR, at least extreme glaring use of it, has always been the exception. After all, the problem with the orange bricks isn't that the remastering doesn't look as good as the Dragon Box. The problem is that the remastering looks like shit and does more harm than good. We're not talking about different degrees of improvement where the orange brick remaster makes it look better by a factor of 2 while the Dragon Box remaster makes it look better by a factor of 4. Instead, it's where one remaster actually hurts the image more than it helps making the choice easy.

It's pretty clear that the generally held idea is that if it isn't going to be remastered right then it shouldn't be remastered at all. In fact, on the Batman: TAS DVDs the producers explicitly say that.

[GizmoKSX]

The Dragon Boxes are great because we get to see the show as close to its intended form as possible. It's not an argument of grainy vs. smooth images in general, but that Dragon Ball was made with that grain and messing with it too much degrades the detail. Now, the careful restoration job and transfer are fantastic and I wish that all the material we bought (anime and otherwise) was handled as lovingly, so maybe we have been spoiled a bit in that sense. But as long as the material isn't as hideous as the Z orange bricks, a couple of minor imperfections don't have to be dealbreakers. (I am holding off on buying the original DB in hopes of a US Dragon Box release, but I don't think the season sets look hideous; I just don't want to end up buying the show twice, and if enough time passes, I'll just get the season sets discounted.)

Even though "remastered" has become a buzzword, studios do take notice if enough of us tell them what we want. And the aforementioned Gladiator exchange policy is encouraging because there are enough educated consumers being vocal about what they don't want their Blu-ray Discs to look like.

Look at the Cowboy Bebop remaster.
(I'd be happy to provide example screen shots of any of those, by the way...)

I'd love to see that if it's an improvement over the transfers on the Remix set.

[TonyTheTiger]

The Dragon Boxes are great because we get to see the show as close to its intended form as possible.

In some sense I'd actually disagree with this. What was "originally intended" is not always the same as "the best." The Dragon Boxes may be "the best" but "originally intended" is a little trickier.

Case in point. In a lot of old video games, particularly on the Genesis, the artists intentionally designed environments fully aware that composite blur and bleeding effects would take a toll on the image. So often what they did was used a checkered pattern of two colors so when played via composite the colors would bleed together and produce either a solid third color or sometimes a transparency effect. So while playing a game in RGB might be "the best" it isn't necessarily what the designers intended the player to see. Because now instead of seeing that intended third color you now can see the checkered pattern. An argument could be made that it's for this very reason that the higher resolution of RGB is actually worse because "the best" is what it was supposed to look like upon release instead of how it could be made to look with better technology.

I don't know if the same thing happened with Dragon Ball or any old cartoon for that matter, but I wouldn't be surprised if they made certain color choices based on what they expected it to look like over broadcast television as opposed to how it looked on the cel. Just a minor nitpick.

[jjgp1112]

I'm gonna have to agree with TonyTheTiger. Let's do a role reversal here. Let's say that in some sort of fantasy world, the Dragon Box masters were how the Season sets or the UUC singles look like in the real world, while for the Orange sets, Funi messed with the colors, etc and the resulting product was how the Dragon Box masters look like in the real world. Would you still be clamoring over the Dragon Box, despite it looking like shit, just because they're the "originally intended" colors? Of course not, you'd go for what looks the best.

[VegettoEX]

I'm gonna have to agree with TonyTheTiger. Let's do a role reversal here. Let's say that in some sort of fantasy world, the Dragon Box masters were how the Season sets or the UUC singles look like in the real world, while for the Orange sets, Funi messed with the colors, etc and the resulting product was how the Dragon Box masters look like in the real world. Would you still be clamoring over the Dragon Box, despite it looking like shit, just because they're the "originally intended" colors?

Yes. Of course I would. What kind of answer are you expecting? Are you looking for random hypocrisy? Keep on lookin'.

I just want the damn show as it's supposed to be. I've said that for years. If it was "supposed" to look like "that"... fine, gimme! Unfortunately for you, your example makes absolutely no sense, and really isn't even worth tossing into the discussion -- it's too back-assward to even hypothetically consider.

A real-world equivalent, which would have been much better to use, would be something like the 1980s Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles cartoon. Occasionally, the wrong voice will come out of the wrong turtle (for example, Raphael's voice out of Donatello's mouth). Would I have wanted them to release it "fixed" with a re-colored mask or something? Of course not! That's how the show "is" (that "state of being" that I talk about), which includes all of its production mistakes and nuances. Leave the damn thing alone, with the exception of presenting it as best as possible as it was originally produced.

[TonyTheTiger]

A real-world equivalent, which would have been much better to use, would be something like the 1980s Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles cartoon. Occasionally, the wrong voice will come out of the wrong turtle (for example, Raphael's voice out of Donatello's mouth). Would I have wanted them to release it "fixed" with a re-colored mask or something? Of course not! That's how the show "is" (that "state of being" that I talk about), which includes all of its production mistakes and nuances. Leave the damn thing alone, with the exception of presenting it as best as possible as it was originally produced.

Hence my point about "if it isn't going to be done right then don't do it at all" above. "Originally presented" is a better phrase than "originally intended." They certainly didn't intend for Raphael's voice to come out of Donatello's mouth once per episode or have the colors of their face masks all turn green. That's why in a sense I actually like that the Batman: TAS DVDs have all the dirt and dust still there. And I certainly prefer that over what it would look like with DVNR.

But "as it was originally intended" like is often said about the Dragon Box opens a huge can of worms because it presumes we know why certain production decisions were made and that what we're seeing on a DVD is actually what we were "supposed" to see in 1989. Maybe we were "supposed" to see a flesh tone but because of TV standards at the time they used an off color on the cel because they knew it would look flesh toned over the air. We might not get that same intended color on a remastered DVD. We might end up with the color actually on the cel. So even "originally presented" can have problems when using it to describe an old remastered product.

That was exactly my point about the Genesis games. RGB might be higher resolution but you lose the intended effect that comes with composite. At that point it's of course a personal taste issue. What's more important? Visual fidelity or original intent? It's a pick your poison kind of thing.

So when "originally intended" is used in a certain way I tend to take issue with it. One reason I tend to dislike the "originally intended" argument is because if that's the case then George Lucas wins.

[Blue]

Wow that's pretty surprising. If the original release looked like the orange bricks I'd for sure love a redone version with better colors. I'd love a redone TMNT release with less blatant animation errors too. Different strokes I suppose.

One reason I tend to dislike the "originally intended" argument is because if that's the case then George Lucas wins.

Ha ha for sure, even disregarding the new versions on DVD if Star Wars was released with all the ideas Geroge originally intended to put in it we would have one...very...very terrible movie.

[GizmoKSX]

"Originally presented" is a better phrase than "originally intended."

Good point; there are a number of factors leading up to a show's presentation. As with Mike's TMNT example, I wouldn't want "corrected" versions of Transformers. Even watching it as a kid, catching the goofs was part of the fun.

One reason I tend to dislike the "originally intended" argument is because if that's the case then George Lucas wins.

That's where availability and clear labeling come into play. There wouldn't be such a clamor over the Special Editions if the original, theatrical cuts of Star Wars were readily available to consumers in high quality, not just "limited edition" non-anamorphic DVD transfers.
To bring up Gladiator again, I like that Ridley Scott introduces the extended cut and makes clear that it is not the director's cut. The director's cut is the theatrical version, which is available right there on the same video release.
Hence why many of us hated the orange bricks so much. The Dragon Box versions were not yet widely available, and the bricks were the only way to get the complete show in a convenient package. They also threw around "the way it was meant to be seen" and "original Japanese masters" as misleading buzzwords.

[TonyTheTiger]

It's obvious that we like things to look good. But when we talk about how something is "supposed" to look we're treading some very muddy waters. Much how I might like seeing the dirt and dust on Batman: TAS, there are plenty of senior citizens who listen to their vinyls because "that's how music is supposed to sound." All this despite the dirt and dust only ending up on the cels by accident and the crackly sound of Frank Sinatra vinyls only being there because those were the limitations of recordings at the time. It's not really "supposed" to be that way.

I can fully admit that I'm of two minds about it. I can't say that all else being equal I wouldn't choose a Batman box set without the dust and dirt over the one that has it but considering I grew up watching it with all those defects they don't really bother me. My mind pretty much blanks them out and just accepts the show as a total package rather than as a show that has a hair floating around the frame.