Official Unofficial Power Level Discussion Thread

[PowerLevelGuy]

Well we know Goku at BoG is even stronger than Gohan was at RoF, so we have a direct comparison here.

Base Goku (BoG) > Base RoF Gohan > Piccolo

We know Piccolo has surpassed Freeza long ago, yet he's still weaker than a severely weakened RoF Gohan. The anime furthers this thought by having Future Trunks imply that Kid Gohan > RoF Gohan. Whatever was going on with Beerus is shown not to be true in the following arc.

[Mireya]

I'm still surprised people thinking these fictional characters have the agency to say bullshit just for the sake of a joke.
They are puppets that say whatever the puppeteer wants them to say. If the line is present, it means that's the author right there saying it.
Whether you like or agree with what the author is saying through his characters, or how they do it, is besides the point. The author agrees with it, period.

It's much easier to work your way out of Vegeta having a big mouth, or 18 not going into kill mode against humans(she did do a decent job with the punching machine and safely beating the TB finalists), or that characters get that much weaker as time goes by and stop training (Gotenks, Gohan) than to pretend the author is just trolling the audience or that he flunked Narrative 101 and keeps saying stuff untrue with no rebuttal down the line.
And no, analyzing a movie script and giving in-depth interpretations to stuff that didn't even make it - and gets contradicted in the same manga chapter that brings up RoF- isn't enough to override a direct statement from the authority.

Shit, the timeline of Gohan going from great to shit is so clear from Z, BoG, RoF, to pre ToP that discussing this just blows my mind.

It's curious that you think this one statement isn't capable of being rationalized, while many statements from the original manga that may be as direct as this one are easier to do so. Vegeta has a big mouth... But when did he deny superiority when he knew the character was stronger than he was? Being overconfident is one thing, but not recognizing the obvious thing is another thing altogether.

About #18, there's the point I raised about... if she was holding back, it very likely wasn't by a big amount... And she was somewhat close to her FP. She KO'd that Jewel (or is it Jelwery? Idk) dude easily without killing him. She shouldn't have the problem of KO'ing the kids using just enough strength to do so... 17 and 18 easily did that to the Z warriors 7 years ago with no intention to kill...

The manga wasn't in accordance with the movie... The manga was done to introduce the movie and create tension. Obviously the script and the movie itself which follows the script way closer would have more weight than the manga, which didn't have the same level of faithfulness to the movie in which Toriyama had a close participation and to which the scripts almost complement it, the ones we have seen at least, perfectly. It's like I saying the DBS manga contradicts the BoG movie since Beerus only said it's no surprise Goku were able to defeat Freeza when Goku used SSJ2... Thus showing Beerus overrated Freeza a lot or was goading Goku into showing more and more.

[Koitsukai]

It's much easier to rationalize whatever the characters might have said or done than to discard a YOU CANT BEAT x LIKE THIS said by the author through a character, time after those characters said whatever.

Level of restraint is unclear, so there's no point in overscrutinizing it. If the kids are below Freeza, then 18 was holding back as much as she needs to in order to vibe with what THE AUTHOR said in BoG. Being a cyborg might actually make her perfect for something like that.
I'm not saying it's flawless, but it's easier than to pretend the author is lying or, even worse, that he is wrong just because we might've misinterpreted panels he draw!

For instance, I can't believe people discard Toriyama saying -even if he is retconning his original material (that's the point of the retcon, in any case, it becomes the factual truth and discards whatever came before it) but go out of their way to assume Base Gohan > Piccolo, because they read way, waaaay between the lines of a movie script, that NEVER MADE IT TO THE FINAL PRODUCT.
That was literally never seen, ever...
And not only that, the manga follows up RoF with a chapter that introduces the U6 tourney idea, and has Goku saying Gohan cannot be taken into account, he's become a bookworm, only studies and has lost his GI (meaning RoF Gohan)... and whom do they pick before Gohan? Buu and Piccolo.
The movie has more weight that the manga, I'd agree on that... thing is, RoF NEVER SHOWED base Gohan besting Piccolo.

The BoG disparities aren't that big of a deal, we know SS2 didn't beat Freeza, and BoG was crystal clear about it.,. it's not even an attempt to retcon the BoG line, and if it were then it'd be retconning the entire Namek arc.

[Mireya]

It's much easier to rationalize whatever the characters might have said or done than to discard a YOU CANT BEAT x LIKE THIS said by the author through a character, time after those characters said whatever.

Level of restraint is unclear, so there's no point in overscrutinizing it. If the kids are below Freeza, then 18 was holding back as much as she needs to in order to vibe with what THE AUTHOR said in BoG. Being a cyborg might actually make her perfect for something like that.
I'm not saying it's flawless, but it's easier than to pretend the author is lying or, even worse, that he is wrong just because we might've misinterpreted panels he draw!

For instance, I can't believe people discard Toriyama saying -even if he is retconning his original material (that's the point of the retcon, in any case, it becomes the factual truth and discards whatever came before it) but go out of their way to assume Base Gohan > Piccolo, because they read way, waaaay between the lines of a movie script, that NEVER MADE IT TO THE FINAL PRODUCT.
That was literally never seen, ever...
And not only that, the manga follows up RoF with a chapter that introduces the U6 tourney idea, and has Goku saying Gohan cannot be taken into account, he's become a bookworm, only studies and has lost his GI (meaning RoF Gohan)... and whom do they pick before Gohan? Buu and Piccolo.
The movie has more weight that the manga, I'd agree on that... thing is, RoF NEVER SHOWED base Gohan besting Piccolo.

The BoG disparities aren't that big of a deal, we know SS2 didn't beat Freeza, and BoG was crystal clear about it.,. it's not even an attempt to retcon the BoG line, and if it were then it'd be retconning the entire Namek arc.

It was said by Beerus. I may as well say Vegeta stating that his superior position wouldn't change despite the no-SSJ rule is also said directly by the author via his character. Why are you ignoring that too?

It's not that unclear... What does Trunks have to base which strength in his blast he needs to defeat 18 but not kill her? The strength she was using... But then the blast still ends up as threat to her, so Trunks wasn't SO off in his estimations... Which would be the case were 18 holding back a lot. How is that doing a reaching analysis? It's a sensible one you didn't counter and referred to the Beerus' line as a counterargument...

... And speaking of this line, since Goku was suggested as above Gotenks , is Freeza > base Gotenks? Even post RoSaT base Gotenks? So is Freeza, according to Beerus, > Piccolo too?

It made into the final product... they were fighting the army, then Shisami had a rough fight with Piccolo, Gohan intervened and then turned SSJ... The only thing which wasn't present was the powerful mercenaries, but outside of that, the movie complemented the script way moreso than the Super manga... speaking of which, had Freeza taking long to say Goku defeated Freeza, said when Goku turned into a SSJ2...

And in the manga of U6, Piccolo managed to fight very well with Frost, a character who was already above base Goku and Vegeta, who according to the movie, could outstrip Freeza's final form who was stronger than anyone there, Piccolo included. So using the manga in conjunction with the movie, Piccolo made some nasty gains there.

Well, I'm not saying it's an attempt to retcon, I'm saying that if we're applying t super manga as a valid continuation to the movie, why not take Beerus acknowledgement coming when Goku was a SSJ2? Isn't that weird when Beerus was excited only knowing Goku defeated Freeza, yet maintained a boring demeanor when fending off SSJ Goku, but changed his demeanor into a more motivated one when Goku went SSJ2? That's also a good clue in regards to the level of excitement Beerus got when knowing Freeza was defeated and only regaining such once Goku became a SSJ2, don't you think?

[Koitsukai]

I can ignore that one because it's so in-character for Vegeta to think he has no rivals, and also because the BoG comment of an unbiased character such as Beerus happens later than Vegeta's, so it has more relevance because it acts as a power conclusion given by the author.
The sky is clear at 9AM, but by 2PM, it's raining... is it still clear because I said so in the morning? no, it's raining, the latter statement prevails.
Whatever you interpreted before is now out the window according to the horse's mouth, even with its rough edges.

You just said it, Gohan turns SS to beat the dude beating Piccolo. You are proving my point, your interpretation and conclusions weren't part of the movie. However, you think it's undebatable that base Gohan trumps Piccolo...
Whatever Piccolo did vs Frost is irrelevant, when Vegeta and Goku are coming up with the squad - that is, before the tourney- they discard Gohan due to being outta shape and describe his RoF persona. Vegeta even commends his LATENT POTENTIAL, not his current power. But they do include Piccolo, even before discarding Gohan... so, Gohan's descent from top dog to rusty fuck is clear enough. Strongest in Z, below Goku in BoG, hardly a SS in RoF, discarded right off the bat in the U6 arc.

The context of the BoG manga line was already stated by other users, no need to repeat their arguments. If you take at face value that panel, then you must believe Goku used SS2 vs Freeza... while the point was to show how SS and SS2 are equally boring to Beerus while only SS3 is a decent step up. It doesn't change at all the movie BoG line, it expands on it, making SS1 and 2 be pure shite to the GoD... you are 10k, 20k, it's all the same to me.

Base Goku and Base Gotenks were never directly compared, fusion is still too unclear when it comes to power ups, Z base Gotenks was greatly above regular Goku(above Majin Vegeta I've heard), but his SS3 wasn't worlds above Goku's. It's not exact, at least for Gotenks.
In any case, sure, why not? if BoG Gotenks' FP got weaker then his base might've gone the same route. It's not Z Gotenks at his peak, mind you.

[Mireya]

I can ignore that one because it's so in-character for Vegeta to think he has no rivals, and also because the BoG comment of an unbiased character such as Beerus happens later than Vegeta's, so it has more relevance because it acts as a power conclusion given by the author.
The sky is clear at 9AM, but by 2PM, it's raining... is it still clear because I said so in the morning? no, it's raining, the latter statement prevails.
Whatever you interpreted before is now out the window according to the horse's mouth, even with its rough edges.

You just said it, Gohan turns SS to beat the dude beating Piccolo. You are proving my point, your interpretation and conclusions weren't part of the movie. However, you think it's undebatable that base Gohan trumps Piccolo...
Whatever Piccolo did vs Frost is irrelevant, when Vegeta and Goku are coming up with the squad - that is, before the tourney- they discard Gohan due to being outta shape and describe his RoF persona. Vegeta even commends his LATENT POTENTIAL, not his current power. But they do include Piccolo, even before discarding Gohan... so, Gohan's descent from top dog to rusty fuck is clear enough. Strongest in Z, below Goku in BoG, hardly a SS in RoF, discarded right off the bat in the U6 arc.

The context of the BoG manga line was already stated by other users, no need to repeat their arguments. If you take at face value that panel, then you must believe Goku used SS2 vs Freeza... while the point was to show how SS and SS2 are equally boring to Beerus while only SS3 is a decent step up. It doesn't change at all the movie BoG line, it expands on it, making SS1 and 2 be pure shite to the GoD... you are 10k, 20k, it's all the same to me.

Base Goku and Base Gotenks were never directly compared, fusion is still too unclear when it comes to power ups, Z base Gotenks was greatly above regular Goku(above Majin Vegeta I've heard), but his SS3 wasn't worlds above Goku's. It's not exact, at least for Gotenks.
In any case, sure, why not? if BoG Gotenks' FP got weaker then his base might've gone the same route. It's not Z Gotenks at his peak, mind you.

When does Vegeta have such bias? His bias stems from him not knowing the characters strength and then having a tendency to overestimate his abilities not accounting for "how much the power up could be". That's not to say he can't do the basic and know when he has been surpassed. Heck, once Boo powered up and showed more power than him and Goku, his entire demeanor of valuing the new acquired Saiyans strength and downplaying Boo since the start changed. He isn't blind to reason. Overconfidence doesn't mean he'll make an outlandish claim when he's fully aware of the fighters powers.

But that example isn't comparable. There it's presenting something that may very well happen, as raining in a day when the sky was clear is plausible... While in the other stance, it's something that can very well be seen as conflicting with clearly laid out statements of superiority from the base Saiyans in a 16 years gap. The author may have thought about going a different route, but that doesn't change implications laid out almost 20 years ago, which may very well be analysed as its own thing. If an author gives every bit of information that some of his character is an alien, which it being pretty much laid out in the story... And later states, 20 years later, that he was never an alien and instead an earthling with no further context, not buying it would be rational and the perception of clashes between old material and new material is very well valid. Not to mention the issue I've raised about this same movie implying Goku > Gotenks. Is Freeza > base Gotenks? You haven't addressed this.

I didn't prove your point. Gohan turned SSJ, but them all needed a Senzu beam after the fight... So it may very well be seen as a means of avoiding dragging the fight and avoid spending more energy... And making it as simple as possible, hushing to get to the actual threat.

Why is it irrelevant? Because you saw Piccolo proved himself to have developed new powers? Piccolo is still in the mentality to develop his skills, taking them to a new level (as can be seen after the battle vs Raditz which just a new threat made his gains exponentially higher compared to the previous 5 years gap since the 23rd Budokai)... Gohan hadn't that mentality. As for choosing fighters, one may as well raise a point on why weren't the kids chosen to fight in the ToP but the earthlings were?

It didn't show them equally boring to Beerus, Beerus actually drew an interested smile right after Goku turned SSJ2, unlike when he was fighting, or rather, avoiding with no expression basically, all of Goku's attacks as SSJ. His interest grew steadily as Goku turned SSJ2 and then SSJ3.

Where's the proof that base Gotenks was worlds above base Goku and Vegeta, but the same wasn't kept to their strongest states?

[Koitsukai]

Of course it changes the implications, for they IMPLY something, they aren't certainties, is as easily as assuming Vegeta was being overconfident, and that 18 was holding back enough for the NEW REVELATION TO FIT THE NARRATIVE. It's not changing who beat Cell or how Krilin died, it's changing scenes that can very well be up for interpretation.
Heck, you are interpreting that because they had to eat a senzu, then there's a whole narrative opening up ending with base Gohan >> Piccolo, forgetting the clear decay in his power, but Toriyama cannot interpret those old Z scenes as having no real meaning powerwise?

Piccolo growing stronger and stronger off-screen until reaching SSB level was a belief everybody had... until SH disproved that, besides they are dropping Gohan BASED on his most recent display, and the case being made here is: Gohan isn't as strong as your interpretation of the parts of the script, that didn't make it into the movie, is making him out to be.
And even so, Gohan's base could still be the strongest, the extent of his power up in Z was never clear, he could have a huge base in BoG and RoF, but a weak ass full power. It doesn't contradict that GOKU'S BASE is weaker than Freeza.
The ToP recruitment is a different matter that happens way down the line and has no bearing on RoF Gohan's status.

I've addressed the Gotenks situation. Last paragraph. He's the most convoluted fusion, he can tangle as SS with a casual Super Buu but as a SS3 he is barely above. Seems more like he went SS2 rather than SS3. I don't recall what ancillary material had Gotenks stronger than Majin Vegeta, but it adds to the complexity of its fusion. It's a gag character, he doesn't have to make sense, and that's ok.
In any case, if Gotenks only needs to lose some power to become weaker than Goku, then that's what the narrative is going for, whether we like it or not.

And Beerus literally says he is not impressed by SS or SS2... it's SS3 that prompts the "I'm almost impressed" reaction.

[Lukmendes]

The context of the BoG manga line was already stated by other users, no need to repeat their arguments. If you take at face value that panel, then you must believe Goku used SS2 vs Freeza... while the point was to show how SS and SS2 are equally boring to Beerus while only SS3 is a decent step up. It doesn't change at all the movie BoG line, it expands on it, making SS1 and 2 be pure shite to the GoD... you are 10k, 20k, it's all the same to me.

Funnily enough, the anime went a similar route, when Goku turned SS1 to fight Beerus, Whis was considering to eat while watching them fight but after seeing how outmatched Goku was, he thought Goku was too weak and decided to not bother, and when Goku turned SS2, he still thought Goku was too weak, and it's only when Goku turns SS3 that Whis thinks that the fight will be good enough to have a snack while watching it.

The movie also has it but it's more subtle, with Beerus just scratching his cheek while not really looking interested when Goku goes SS2.

Base Goku and Base Gotenks were never directly compared, fusion is still too unclear when it comes to power ups, Z base Gotenks was greatly above regular Goku(above Majin Vegeta I've heard),

Once they got inside RoSaT, we have Piccolo wondering that base Gotenks may be enough to kill Buu, even though earlier Piccolo said that SS2 Goku and Vegeta teaming up wouldn't be enough to deal with fat Buu.

Though Buu saga is overall really weird with power level comparisons, with characters constantly overstimating and underestimating each other even when it should be really obvious if a character is strong enough to deal with another.

but his SS3 wasn't worlds above Goku's. It's not exact, at least for Gotenks.
In any case, sure, why not? if BoG Gotenks' FP got weaker then his base might've gone the same route. It's not Z Gotenks at his peak, mind you.

The only comparisons between Goku and Gotenks are indirect ones, since SS3 Gotenks is strong enough to beat up super Buu and may even have been strong enough to kill him, meanwhile, Goku when inside of super Buu, even after everyone except fat Buu are freed, he still thinks super Buu is too strong and insists to Vegeta that they should fuse.

So whatever the difference, it's significant, but how big it is, is vague... Specially since, again, Buu saga itself is a mess when it comes to power level comparisons, Goku's own opinion about whether or not he can deal with Buu is definitely included, since he said super Buu is stronger than him, and three chapters later he says he could handle fat Buu, which's ridiculous, since super Buu shouldn't be that much stronger than fat Buu, specially since soon after fighting fat Buu much earlier he says he doesn't think he could defeat fat Buu...

Piccolo growing stronger and stronger off-screen until reaching SSB level was a belief everybody had... until SH disproved that

Honestly I never thought that, Piccolo just seemed super stagnant during the entirety of Super.

Z itself didn't help with that, for whatever reason after fusing with Kami Piccolo quickly reached his limits and couldn't improve that much, or at least, not enough to compare to super saiyans, and Buu saga only made that worse.

[Hugo Boss]

Of course it changes the implications, for they IMPLY something, they aren't certainties, is as easily as assuming Vegeta was being overconfident, and that 18 was holding back enough for the NEW REVELATION TO FIT THE NARRATIVE.

Not to mention Vegeta was wrong, since he wasn’t even the strongest Saiyan at that time. There is nothing in that line suggesting Vegeta is comparing himself to Piccolo and 18 either. He says the conditions would be the same, but locking up a 50-fold increase in power definitely doesn’t make the conditions the same if there are others competing without that disadvantage. And if the odds were against him he would just split transform into Super Saiyan without giving any clue to his opponent, like Trunks did. So, no, as Goku says: “gimme a break”.

I’m also confused about how exactly someone would think 18 is equal to Goten and Trunks. Granted, she wasn't using her full strength while they were in their base forms due to not knowing who Mighty Mask actually was, but given that she made it clear that a weakened ki blast from SS Trunks was enough to legitimately scare her over how powerful it was, it's fairly clear that SS Trunks and SS Goten were stronger than her.

On top of that, Super Hero also places Piccolo around SS Gohan level against the Gammas.

[GreatSaiyaman123]

Come to think of it, Goku doesn't even have to be stronger than Gotenks. Not only is fusion always left out of comparisons, but Gotenks is the most reliable character ever. He's completely off the table in RoF despite being the strongest fighter on Earth. The movie even avoids showing SSJ3 Gotenks...

Honestly I never thought that, Piccolo just seemed super stagnant during the entirety of Super.

Goku says Piccolo is much stronger than before in the Moro Saga, but that's about it.

[Mireya]

Of course it changes the implications, for they IMPLY something, they aren't certainties, is as easily as assuming Vegeta was being overconfident, and that 18 was holding back enough for the NEW REVELATION TO FIT THE NARRATIVE. It's not changing who beat Cell or how Krilin died, it's changing scenes that can very well be up for interpretation.
Heck, you are interpreting that because they had to eat a senzu, then there's a whole narrative opening up ending with base Gohan >> Piccolo, forgetting the clear decay in his power, but Toriyama cannot interpret those old Z scenes as having no real meaning powerwise?

Piccolo growing stronger and stronger off-screen until reaching SSB level was a belief everybody had... until SH disproved that, besides they are dropping Gohan BASED on his most recent display, and the case being made here is: Gohan isn't as strong as your interpretation of the parts of the script, that didn't make it into the movie, is making him out to be.
And even so, Gohan's base could still be the strongest, the extent of his power up in Z was never clear, he could have a huge base in BoG and RoF, but a weak ass full power. It doesn't contradict that GOKU'S BASE is weaker than Freeza.
The ToP recruitment is a different matter that happens way down the line and has no bearing on RoF Gohan's status.

I've addressed the Gotenks situation. Last paragraph. He's the most convoluted fusion, he can tangle as SS with a casual Super Buu but as a SS3 he is barely above. Seems more like he went SS2 rather than SS3. I don't recall what ancillary material had Gotenks stronger than Majin Vegeta, but it adds to the complexity of its fusion. It's a gag character, he doesn't have to make sense, and that's ok.
In any case, if Gotenks only needs to lose some power to become weaker than Goku, then that's what the narrative is going for, whether we like it or not.

And Beerus literally says he is not impressed by SS or SS2... it's SS3 that prompts the "I'm almost impressed" reaction.

No, in your example it wasn't an implication, it was a statement that was made by the time there and could be bound to change, as a clear day isn't guarantee it won't rain. Clear day isn't a statement that means raining is impossible. Unlikely, but the raining happening made that clear as a fact, since clear day isn't an established fact of no raining. We are talking about clear statements from the original manga who got a new representation by a statement almost 20 years later... That doesn't mean the implications need to be overwritten... Even moreso, again, when Goku was > Gotenks... And base Gotenks was > Piccolo.... But Piccolo isn't below Freeza. That same Toriyama also confused basic things from the story like having Gohan as a SSJ initially iirc and it was informed he had the ultimate state... Which made SSJ useless. And he corrected it if I'm not mistaken. He had Freeza talking about a 1,300,000 power level as something amazing after training... The author isn't immune to mistakes about his own work. The content of the original series remains, even when the same author backfires on this statement in the next movie...

I don't know what you mean by the last phrase in your first paragraph. Could you word it differently? Sorry, my bad.

Nobody said SSJB level here... But Piccolo faced Frost almost on even terms while Goku needed SSJ. And base Goku and Vegeta were already absurdly overpowered by then. So that's a clear power up from Piccolo. Also, you know SSJ Gohan > Piccolo right? So why didn't they choose Gohan? Maybe because Piccolo got stronger?

Gohan hadn't ultimate and a huge ass base power. He lost the ultimate power so much he was even doubting whether he could transform into a SSJ. He hadn't those ultimate traits like full outlined eyes, a rough face, which he only got back later on. In the anime, Trunks even said, future Trunks I mean, that he didn't sense that overflowing power from Gohan... With the last he had seen from Gohan being CGs. Gohan was in base there... And clearly seemed more in shape than his RoF style.

You haven't addressed. You said his base is way above but not his strongest states without stating a reason. As for your reason now, Super Boo was suppressed as he likely released all his power when screaming to break through the dimensions. Gotenks' power up to SSJ3 was significant enough that a hole which couldn't be even created was immediately created by a brief scream, and we can see a brief panel of him as SSJ2 before going to SSJ3. That was a quite clearly a big power upgrade. There's no reason to assume his upper forms provide less of a gap at all. Piccolo had seen Goku as SSJ3 and was also flabbergasted by Gotenks achieving that without at any time noticing how it's a puny multiplier.

I'm talking about the manga, isn't that what we are talking about? You can clearly see he turning his excitement up when Goku turned SSJ2. SSJ3 just made him MORE excited.

Edit:

Hugo Boss

Vegeta was shown to be wrong, but by something he couldn't predict -- Goku's powers. That's not a proper rebuttal to this, as he knows 18's powers. One he saw Goku's power vs Yakon, he admitted the gap between them was still there... He isn't blind to reason, come on now. Besides, it needs to be implying 18 because Vegeta wants to win. What if Vegeta runs into 18 firstly? Why'd Gohan propose such a rule when he knows it'd hurt their chances of winning? Gohan states he wants to him, he knows Vegeta is there to win... So it can't be simply a Saiyan consideration stuff. He categorized them all as the same, but his superior position not changing ought to be considering whoever he thinks is in the tournament.

As for them turning SSJ into a flash instant, they don't rationalize that as the case were them to face 18... They agree with their base rule and there isn't an inserted dialogue there about them turning SSJ quickly in case they run against someone stronger. Gohan was about to face Kibito and intending to do so in base... The thought of instantly turning into SSJ doesn't occur to him as a potential way to have a big advantage... If it were considered, surely he'd think about doing it quickly too. It seems they upheld the base rule in its entirety since no additional comment in exploring additional usages in face of potential threats was ever explored, so I don't think it holds much weight.

[Hugo Boss]

Edit:

Hugo Boss

Vegeta was shown to be wrong, but by something he couldn't predict -- Goku's powers. That's not a proper rebuttal to this, as he knows 18's powers. One he saw Goku's power vs Yakon, he admitted the gap between them was still there... He isn't blind to reason, come on now. Besides, it needs to be implying 18 because Vegeta wants to win. What if Vegeta runs into 18 firstly? Why'd Gohan propose such a rule when he knows it'd hurt their chances of winning? Gohan states he wants to him, he knows Vegeta is there to win... So it can't be simply a Saiyan consideration stuff. He categorized them all as the same, but his superior position not changing ought to be considering whoever he thinks is in the tournament.

As for them turning SSJ into a flash instant, they don't rationalize that as the case were them to face 18... They agree with their base rule and there isn't an inserted dialogue there about them turning SSJ quickly in case they run against someone stronger. Gohan was about to face Kibito and intending to do so in base... The thought of instantly turning into SSJ doesn't occur to him as a potential way to have a big advantage... If it were considered, surely he'd think about doing it quickly too. It seems they upheld the base rule in its entirety since no additional comment in exploring additional usages in face of potential threats was ever explored, so I don't think it holds much weight.

While I partially understand your perspective, it's essential to consider the context.

Within the martial arts tournament setting, strategic decisions play a crucial role. The absence of explicit dialogue about turning Super Saiyan quickly doesn't rule out the possibility of doing so in specific situations, as strategies evolve dynamically in a fight, specially when it involves Saiyans. The narrative might be cautious about revealing it sooner to maintain an element of surprise (“wow, I didn’t know they could manage that!”). This narrative element allows the characters to navigate battles intelligently rather than relying solely on raw power (despite a small handful of people reading way too much into certain lines).

In essence, the tournament setting provides a platform for characters to showcase not only their strength but also their strategic acumen, enhancing the overall complexity of the martial arts competition. So, they obviously won’t openly discuss or execute strategies until the fight is underway.

[Mireya]

Edit:

Hugo Boss

Vegeta was shown to be wrong, but by something he couldn't predict -- Goku's powers. That's not a proper rebuttal to this, as he knows 18's powers. One he saw Goku's power vs Yakon, he admitted the gap between them was still there... He isn't blind to reason, come on now. Besides, it needs to be implying 18 because Vegeta wants to win. What if Vegeta runs into 18 firstly? Why'd Gohan propose such a rule when he knows it'd hurt their chances of winning? Gohan states he wants to him, he knows Vegeta is there to win... So it can't be simply a Saiyan consideration stuff. He categorized them all as the same, but his superior position not changing ought to be considering whoever he thinks is in the tournament.

As for them turning SSJ into a flash instant, they don't rationalize that as the case were them to face 18... They agree with their base rule and there isn't an inserted dialogue there about them turning SSJ quickly in case they run against someone stronger. Gohan was about to face Kibito and intending to do so in base... The thought of instantly turning into SSJ doesn't occur to him as a potential way to have a big advantage... If it were considered, surely he'd think about doing it quickly too. It seems they upheld the base rule in its entirety since no additional comment in exploring additional usages in face of potential threats was ever explored, so I don't think it holds much weight.

While I partially understand your perspective, it's essential to consider the context.

Within the martial arts tournament setting, strategic decisions play a crucial role. The absence of explicit dialogue about turning Super Saiyan quickly doesn't rule out the possibility of doing so in specific situations, as strategies evolve dynamically in a fight, specially when it involves Saiyans. The narrative might be cautious about revealing it sooner to maintain an element of surprise (“wow, I didn’t know they could manage that!”). This narrative element allows the characters to navigate battles intelligently rather than relying solely on raw power (despite a small handful of people reading way too much into certain lines).

In essence, the tournament setting provides a platform for characters to showcase not only their strength but also their strategic acumen, enhancing the overall complexity of the martial arts competition. So, they obviously won’t openly discuss or execute strategies until the fight is underway.

True, that's fair enough. But wouldn't a self thought, like thinking to themselves, be maybe a way to employ this strategy without discussing it? Perhaps you mean from the perspective of the writer, but if there's an implication there that SSJ wasn't seen as needed by them, wouldn't it be valid enough for the author to showcase this via an internal monologue not to leave doubts about the possibility of using it quickly vs potentially stronger fighters? Because if the implication was made, I think some sort of self thinking could be warranted, specially since Toriyama, arguably, didn't plan to finish the tournament with the Boo thing possibly already in mind, in a way that displaying this possible scenario could disrupt any surprise that could arise from this usage. I also think that the fact Gohan didn't seem to think about this vs Kibito, thinking it would be hard to win without showing his true abilities and then later wondering if he could win by luck, may also hint he didn't have the "instant SSJ" thought in mind, as that imo could be a good moment for him to think of that possibility.

Goten and Trunks could come to mind too... Trunks said that transforming was ok since they were in that costume, but they didn't think about quickly turning into one when 18 was pressuring them and then using it quickly to land a solid attack in the close range melee there.

It's a plausible hypothesis that I had also thought in other debates, but I question if the characters had that in mind.

[PowerLevelGuy]

You guys on the Freeza > Base Goku side...

You guys have Freeza > Base Gotenks?

[Grimlock]

From my perspective, for some people it seems this is only a matter of finding unbelievable that Goku couldn’t muster leapfrogging gains in those 16 years, when most of those gains that came before were from near-death-power-ups. The other gains were only seen in transformations and fusions.

And that would make us question if they actually read the panels. Because it is stated, multiple times throughout the franchise, that Saiyans get stronger as they fight. A Saiyan will never come out of any fight with the same power level from before the fight began. They don't become stronger just by zenkai and transformations. So you have to consider everything Goku went through, plus whatever he did in the Otherworld for seven years.

This line in particular would have no purpose or impact if it weren’t supposed to be true. Goku has no qualms about saying what he disagrees with (“gimme a break”).

But don't you find odd someone randomly showing up in front of you, and one of the first things they say is "you're weaker than him"? Wouldn't be more natural and resonable "I heard you couldn't beat him without first changing your appearance"?

[Hugo Boss]

But wouldn't a self thought, like thinking to themselves, be maybe a way to employ this strategy without discussing it? Perhaps you mean from the perspective of the writer, but if there's an implication there that SSJ wasn't seen as needed by them, wouldn't it be valid enough for the author to showcase this via an internal monologue not to leave doubts about the possibility of using it quickly vs potentially stronger fighters?

I don’t think so. This is usually something they figure out in the middle of the battle or elaborate on after they executed it. For example, when Goku managed to use bukujutsu against Piccolo, that was an element that couldn’t be anticipated for the reader, either by inner monologue or any other sign. Despite that, there is the case of Goku not getting restricted by his tail being grabbed in another instance. This is something Goku worked around before the tournament, but won’t reveal it by any means until the opportunity arises. The purpose is to obfuscate any possible turn of events.

And that would make us question if they actually read the panels. Because it is stated, multiple times throughout the franchise, that Saiyans get stronger as they fight. A Saiyan will never come out of any fight with the same power level from before the fight began. They don't become stronger just by zenkai and transformations. So you have to consider everything Goku went through, plus whatever he did in the Otherworld for seven years.

Yeah, not saying that Saiyans don’t get stronger the more they fight strong opponents by other means, but fundamentally the largest power-ups until the battle with Freeza in the manga were seen in zenkais, like Vegeta was explaining to Dodoria in the panels you linked.

And by getting stronger as they fight, more often than not their power-ups are accompanied or represented by transformations or special skills. In Cell arc, the large bulk of Goku gains came from honing Super Saiyan in the RoSaT, while in Boo arc he focused on SS2, SS3 and Fusion. Goku ended up a bit stronger than Gohan from 7 years before, if we take all that from him.

In Battle of Gods case, Goku was getting accustomed to the power of a temporary transformation the more he fought Beerus and using its power as his own, so that resulted in his base and Super Saiyan form getting steadily stronger (at least, I think that was the original intention). But before that, their gains in base form were not put to test against people remarkably stronger than Freeza.

But don't you find odd someone randomly showing up in front of you, and one of the first things they say is "you're weaker than him"? Wouldn't be more natural and resonable "I heard you couldn't beat him without first changing your appearance"?

I don’t. I heard Goku defeated Freeza, but I’m seeing him in person and I know he isn’t able to the way he is. My first action would be wondering: “how did you do it?”. Goku’s reaction is showing me Super Saiyan and now I understand how he managed it. “I see, you can power-up by transforming, now it makes sense”.

[Mireya]

But wouldn't a self thought, like thinking to themselves, be maybe a way to employ this strategy without discussing it? Perhaps you mean from the perspective of the writer, but if there's an implication there that SSJ wasn't seen as needed by them, wouldn't it be valid enough for the author to showcase this via an internal monologue not to leave doubts about the possibility of using it quickly vs potentially stronger fighters?

I don’t think so. This is usually something they figure out in the middle of the battle or elaborate on after they executed it. For example, when Goku managed to use bukujutsu against Piccolo, that was an element that couldn’t be anticipated for the reader, either by inner monologue or any other sign. Despite that, there is the case of Goku not getting restricted by his tail being grabbed in another instance. This is something Goku worked around before the tournament, but won’t reveal it by any means until the opportunity arises. The purpose is to obfuscate any possible turn of events.

And that would make us question if they actually read the panels. Because it is stated, multiple times throughout the franchise, that Saiyans get stronger as they fight. A Saiyan will never come out of any fight with the same power level from before the fight began. They don't become stronger just by zenkai and transformations. So you have to consider everything Goku went through, plus whatever he did in the Otherworld for seven years.

Yeah, not saying that Saiyans don’t get stronger the more they fight strong opponents by other means, but fundamentally the largest power-ups until the battle with Freeza in the manga were seen in zenkais, like Vegeta was explaining to Dodoria in the panels you linked.

And by getting stronger as they fight, more often than not their power-ups are accompanied or represented by transformations or special skills. In Cell arc, the large bulk of Goku gains came from honing Super Saiyan in the RoSaT, while in Boo arc he focused on SS2, SS3 and Fusion. Goku ended up a bit stronger than Gohan from 7 years before, if we take all that from him.

In Battle of Gods case, Goku was getting accustomed to the power of a temporary transformation the more he fought Beerus and using its power as his own, so that resulted in his base and Super Saiyan form getting steadily stronger (at least, I think that was the original intention). But before that, their gains in base form were not put to test against people remarkably stronger than Freeza.

But don't you find odd someone randomly showing up in front of you, and one of the first things they say is "you're weaker than him"? Wouldn't be more natural and resonable "I heard you couldn't beat him without first changing your appearance"?

I don’t. I heard Goku defeated Freeza, but I’m seeing him in person and I know he isn’t able to the way he is. My first action would be wondering: “how did you do it?”. Goku’s reaction is showing me Super Saiyan and now I understand how he managed it. “I see, you can power-up by transforming, now it makes sense”.

Yes, but if it's something they think about amidst the battle, then it wouldn't be relevant to the assessment they made then, of SSJ not being necessary and not damaging their odds when Gohan wants to win and he'a also aware of Vegeta's goals. So if the thought had yet to be figured, then what remains is that the initial restriction as a whole without further way-throughs, wasn't seen as an issue. Which also goes hand to hand with Goten and Trunks, the latter specifically, blocking most of 18's punches and getting up fine upon being hit by her, with Trunks highlighting specially the lack of coordination. And as I raised earlier, if she were holding back, it very likely wasn't by a very significant amount... So while there isn't a 100% fact as people can choose to stay strong to what Beerus said and rationalize every other evidence, to say there's nothing in the story pointing at it isn't true. At all. And they range between moderate to strong implications to pretty much flat out statements.

Oh and in case it's about the author maintaining suspense, that's also doubtful as it's not likely or at least not certain that Toriyama was planning to even give the tournament sequence with the whole Boo thing happening right afterwards, which would be an opportunity for a clarification without the need to damage story telling. Specially since Gohan didn't think of that scenario when facing Kibito and stated winning without showing his true powers would be tough... So if it happened, it'd arguably be a thing thought within battle, as the other battle between Trunks and Goten vs 18 didn't feature them formulating a plan to quickly defeat her either. So there was opportunity for Toriyama to clarify it were it the intention without damaging the overall tournament structure... And the examples we had there didn't show instant SSJ transformations planned by two (or 3) different character in that situation. It wasn't shown by the author and wasn't implied when he had a character there ready to fight. So to me it remains as unlikely to challenge the quote clear statement from Vegeta and safety from Gohan in proposing the rule.

[Hugo Boss]

Yes, but if it's something they think about amidst the battle, then it wouldn't be relevant to the assessment they made then, of SSJ not being necessary and not damaging their odds when Gohan wants to win and he'a also aware of Vegeta's goals.

Fair enough. However, while one may interpret the initial assessment is that turning Super Saiyan isn't necessary, Vegeta will adapt his strategy based on evolving circumstances during the fight, as he couldn’t antecipate every possible scenario when he made that claim. The absence of explicit dialogue about turning Super Saiyan quickly doesn't negate the possibility of recognizing its tactical advantage during the heat of battle. In tournaments, adaptability and on-the-fly decision-making are vital. So, in a what-if scenario with Vegeta vs. Piccolo, this is totally something that could happen, based on how Goten vs. Trunks played out.

More importantly, praising himself extravagantly before things get done is totally in Vegeta’s character. Boo arc is stuffed with those braggart claims.

Goten and Trunks, the latter specifically, blocking most of 18's punches and getting up fine upon being hit by her, with Trunks highlighting specially the lack of coordination. And as I raised earlier, if she were holding back, it very likely wasn't by a very significant amount...

I don’t see anything suggesting Base Goten and Base Trunks were close to 18 in the manga. Most of the time they were put on defensive. It’s perhaps an impression you might have from the anime, that they were getting up multiple times. Anyway, not being instantly defeated is not a feat. Since they were concealing their true strength is understandable why they weren’t quickly eliminated. This is exactly the dynamic of a fight being played between what they believed and what was was real.

Specially since Gohan didn't think of that scenario when facing Kibito and stated winning without showing his true powers would be tough...

That was because Gohan was trying to not be hypocrite. His inner monologue in this case corroborates what I’m saying, that there are unpredictable scenarios where Super Saiyan may be needed.

[Mireya]

Yes, but if it's something they think about amidst the battle, then it wouldn't be relevant to the assessment they made then, of SSJ not being necessary and not damaging their odds when Gohan wants to win and he'a also aware of Vegeta's goals.

Fair enough. However, while one may interpret the initial assessment is that turning Super Saiyan isn't necessary, Vegeta will adapt his strategy based on evolving circumstances during the fight, as he couldn’t antecipate every possible scenario when he made that claim. The absence of explicit dialogue about turning Super Saiyan quickly doesn't negate the possibility of recognizing its tactical advantage during the heat of battle. In tournaments, adaptability and on-the-fly decision-making are vital. So, in a what-if scenario with Vegeta vs. Piccolo, this is totally something that could happen, based on how Goten vs. Trunks played out.

More importantly, praising himself extravagantly before things get done is totally in Vegeta’s character. Boo arc is stuffed with those braggart claims.

Goten and Trunks, the latter specifically, blocking most of 18's punches and getting up fine upon being hit by her, with Trunks highlighting specially the lack of coordination. And as I raised earlier, if she were holding back, it very likely wasn't by a very significant amount...

I don’t see anything suggesting Base Goten and Base Trunks were close to 18 in the manga. Most of the time they were put on defensive. It’s perhaps an impression you might have from the anime, that they were getting up multiple times. Anyway, not being instantly defeated is not a feat. Since they were concealing their true strength is understandable why they weren’t quickly eliminated. This is exactly the dynamic of a fight being played between what they believed and what was was real.

Specially since Gohan didn't think of that scenario when facing Kibito and stated winning without showing his true powers would be tough...

That was because Gohan was trying to not be hypocrite. His inner monologue in this case corroborates what I’m saying, that there are unpredictable scenarios where Super Saiyan may be needed.

That's assuming Vegeta needed that. It wasn't hinted in the story he needed that strategy. All we had was his agreement to fight in base and that's it. Even if characters can and will employ streategies amidst fights, they were shown... Or hinted... Here we don't have the same case. Rather, we have Gohan not thinking about it... The kids neither. Kuririn also stated there such is a relief since SSJ is cheating. Yeah, like, Kuririn can't do anything... But there wasn't any association with the usage of a SSJ like this. Since Toriyama likely had already plans to interrupt the tournament due to the evolving plot of the Boo arc, he could have portrayed that as it wouldn't hurt the story and we'd have a confirmation of this strategy, which remains as a speculation that wasn't hinted.

Vegeta's remark in a, what may be perceived, arrogance way, holds no weight because he shows confidence when he thinks of himself as superior. He doesn't deny when he isn't (see for example him saying no one can fight Cell when Goku was about to choose the next fight). Vegeta's overconfidence isn't written out because he's often shown to be wrong, since in the stances such happens is precisely when he's unaware of his opponent's powers... Which he isn't in regards to 18. So there's no reason that his assertion should be written off as for who he is aware about power wise. As for Goku, sure, but he doesn't know Goku's power yet... He surpassed CGs Goku by a considerable margin, which is the prerequisite for him to show confidence. If he were shown wrong later on, that's not relevant to who he's aware of in terms of power. Overconfidence doesn't mean denying the obvious or going down a path he knows will stain his odds of winning. It means knowing he has what takes to win, not being confident against who he knows for a fact he can't win against in a certain way.

Also, it's not only about Vegeta... Gohan is also there to win and he's the one who comes up the rule thinking of winning but besides it, thinking Vegeta won't take a loss. So if Gohan himself didn't consider the scenario of a quick SSJ in a fight he thought he might be in a predicament, then he wouldn't propose a rule he knew Vegeta wouldn't follow... Nor him. That's an important aspect of the implications surrounding the scenario.

Gohan pondered whether he could win without his true powers... But that doesn't mean he was thinking of other possibilities... Were the SSJ-in-a-pitch in his mind, he wouldn't be stressing over the situation so much since the strategy would be already there. It's not like he thought he'd lose either... Kibito was a mistery to him, so he took a cautious approach. When Kibito asks for him to become a SSJ, he's ever so hesitant in doing so.

Goten did break the rule, but funnily enough he didn't do so in a calculated way, he did so in a desperate way when Trunks had his arms locked from behind and everyone saw the SSJ there. That's quite the contrary of someone doing that in a thoughtful way knowing they'd be in a predicament from the start. He was also scolded by Gohan from doing so with Gohan getting annoyed in the arena and funnily enough Gohan didn't even mention something like "at least do it quickly, not in a way everyone would see"...

As for Goten and Trunks vs 18, the fight didn't seem even, but the circumstances the kids were in and still blocking most of 18's hits, not managing to do so only when she kicked in their blind spot (with Trunks complaining about Goten being a dead weight amidst that), and getting up quickly with no signs of any injury after her hammer fist speaks a lot about their power... Specially since 18 could hurt SSJ androids saga future Trunks badly in a couple of hits... Specially since 17 could also do the same to Piccolo in basically a hit, without killing... They were all injured by their attacks, and 17 wasn't even serious there. So the fact Trunks wasn't hurt, didn't show signs of even a little pain and got up only complaining about their disadvantage means a lot, I'd say, in terms of their base power alone. And I'm not thinking about the fight in the anime, I don't watch it in years. Whenever I discuss DB, it's always manga oriented, always... I've read it so many times that most events are even memorized entirely haha.

[Hugo Boss]

At the end of day, this discussion is entirely speculative. I’m just presenting possible solutions that Saiyans might figure out during a moment of need, I’m not suggesting they should think exactly as I said to prove my point, nor did I suggest every Saiyan would be able to concoct that move. It’s only something within the realm of possibility. Trunks did it against Goten. Goku did it against Yakon. Vegeta did it against Goku. Vegeta did it against Goku Black. Just a few examples. Did Vegeta needed it against 18 or Piccolo? Who knows. You should ask Toriyama this, not me. He left that question unanswered for 15 years, until Beerus slapped it in our faces.

Re: Trunks vs 18. I will just quote Cipher here: dialogue references are solid; panel-to-panel exchanges come with question marks. Action panels don’t follow a particular pattern. Historically this logic led to silly conclusions, like Piccolo being intended to be god level in the manga, lol. Silly me also advocated for that before Super Hero (again) slapped it in my face that he was not.