Near-death power-up and actually dying...

[Xyex]

This is something I've been wondering for a while, and it's recently come up again. It makes sense to me but I was wondering what everyone else thinks. Would a Saiya-jin still get the effects of the 'Zenkai' if they died and were revived? I mean, that IS the ultimate near-death experience. But we never actually SEE any direct evidence one way or the other it seems. But we do have:

1) Goku dies fighting Radtiz. Get's some otherworldly training and a MASSIVE boost in power. It's possible it was just the training, but maybe he got a massive 'Zenkai' as well?

2) Vegeta dies on Namek against Freeza. We don't see him fight again until the Android Saga, so nothing there to say one way or the other.

3) Goku dies when Cell blows himself up. In the manga we don't see him fight again until the Majin Vegeta fight. In the anime however, he goes toe-to-toe against Pikkon who's at least close to Cell's power. (The 'Zenkai' should count here (if it happens), since he DOES have his physical body back and restored.)

4) Trunks dies when Cell comes back. Doesn't fight again until he's in the future and we already know he's a lot stronger than 17, 18, and Cell.

5) Vegeta dies when he self destructs against Majin Buu. We don't actually see him fight again on his own until Kid Buu, and he does a pretty damn good job at staying alive during that fight.

So, there we have it. No direct evidence one way or the other, but some hints to the possibility. Anyway, what's everyone else think?

[VegettoEX]

Unless someone can show me an example in the manga or daizenshuu of the word "Zenkai" actually referring to such a power-up...

And I know that if you just use the definition of the word it technically makes sense and applies...

But man, that just reminds me waaaaaaaaaay too much of those other horrid boards I lurk around ^^;;.

j00 zenKai <<<<<>>>>>>>>>>>>>> GokU ZenKai~!!!!

[Xyex]

Unless someone can show me an example in the manga or daizenshuu of the word "Zenkai" actually referring to such a power-up...

I'm 99.9% positive it's a fan chosen term to use as short hand for "Saiya-jin near death power-up" which is much better than 'SJNDPU'. And at least it's not 'Saiya-jin > Power'. XD

Anyway, back to the topic at hand. Thoughts, opinions?

[alakazam^]

I think the power-up only applies when one saiya-jin is almost dead and then is cured/healed. If he dies and then gets revived, it's not really a near-death experience. The power-up might be a reaction of the body to prevent that Saiya-jin of losing again after he's cured/healed, the same way they get strong while fighting stronger oponents (they are a fighting race, after all.)

Goku did lost to Cell, but I think that Cell said that if he hadn't set up the barrier, those energy balls Goku was shooting, would get him or something. Either way, Goku wasn't really toe-to-toe with Paikuhan. He won because he used the Shunkan Idou to avoid the Thunder Clash (is it?). I mean, Goku also looked like he was toe-to-toe with Cell.

Can we also consider near-death experience when Vegeta and Trunks fought the Jinzouningen, Vegeta fought Perfect Cell and Gohan fought Majin Buu? None of them died in those situations and they were pretty injured.

To conclude, I think Toriyama forgot about the power-up after the Freeza arc or they were so strong that no one could notice a power-up.

[Fuujin]

Actually, Goku was weaker the Perfect Cell. Cell just was acting as if he was on the same level to get the most of the fight. He WAS weakening because of Son's last assault, but he wouldn't have if he had used his full power and all techniques (such as the barrier) from the start. As I said, it was all for fun.

I don't think there's a "after-death" power-up. After reviving, one's body is sort of "reset", and can't react to changes that happened, for all intends and purposes, in an other life. The only evidence that would really point to existence of such power-up is filler, and a one that doesn't make much sense anyway.

On a side-note, I think that the lack of zenkai (It's a convienient term, okay? Besides, EX uses "Oozaru", so why not "Zenkai"?) in post-Freeza is because most Saiyans overused it at that time. I would wager that there's a limit of how many times you can gain power this way.

[B-kun]

It's a convienient term, okay? Besides, EX uses "Oozaru", so why not "Zenkai"?)

Actually, "Oozaru" is actually an official term, used in the Daizenshuu and the series.

[Rocketman]

I don't think there's a "after-death" power-up. After reviving, one's body is sort of "reset", and can't react to changes that happened, for all intends and purposes, in an other life.

Then how can Goku and Vegeta go Super Saiyan while dead, if their bodies were reset?

[Fuujin]

Actually, "Oozaru" is actually an official term, used in the Daizenshuu and the series.

Yes, but I think it has a literal meaning, and isn't necessarily a proper name. Like "zenkai".

Then how can Goku and Vegeta go Super Saiyan while dead, if their bodies were reset?

I meant that, seeing as reviving a person literally rebuilts a body, it's like the damage was never really there. I mean, if a Saiyan dies his body can't respond to damage with a power-up, since his friggin' DEAD, and when he's revived, there is no damage it can respond to.

Bah, I just can't express my thoughts with words. Damn language barrier.

[Xyex]

I meant that, seeing as reviving a person literally rebuilts a body, it's like the damage was never really there. I mean, if a Saiyan dies his body can't respond to damage with a power-up, since his friggin' DEAD, and when he's revived, there is no damage it can respond to.

Bah, I just can't express my thoughts with words. Damn language barrier.

I understand what you mean, but that's not possible. If that was the case their powers would be reset to 0 when revived. Beyond that, Goku couldn't have gained any power during his training. They may be dead but the DO have their bodies, well, sometimes.

Can we also consider near-death experience when Vegeta and Trunks fought the Jinzouningen, Vegeta fought Perfect Cell and Gohan fought Majin Buu? None of them died in those situations and they were pretty injured.

To conclude, I think Toriyama forgot about the power-up after the Freeza arc or they were so strong that no one could notice a power-up.

Actually, I don't think it was that the Saiya-jin was too strong for the power-up to be of any help, I think that the bad guys were too strong. I mean, something I was thinking about recently was when Trunks returned to his own time. He took out 18 first and 17 said something (IIRC) along the lines of "You'll pay for that!" and then attacked him. Which leads me to believe 17 could have taken 18 out that easily as well.

The only evidence that would really point to existence of such power-up is filler, and a one that doesn't make much sense anyway.

Actually, the Otherworld Tournament/Pikkon filler makes perfect sense when you set and think it out. Even without the 'Zenkai'.

[Super Sonic]

In the anime at least, Vegeta states that after being revived the first time he should have more power than before. As for holding his own against Buu the second time, are you referring to when he was revived, or before his holding his own while dead?

[B-kun]

Yes, but I think it has a literal meaning, and isn't necessarily a proper name. Like "zenkai".

You're right, it does have a literal meaning - big monkey. Which is an oozaru.

[Alienman24]

For the record, I always liked the idea of a near death power up. I use it in my roleplaying game as a method of experience. In addition to training, you get power level bonuses just for spending power level. All races get something however Saiyans get an increase of about 30% of what they spent.

In other words, if your power level is 1000 and you use 100 of your power level in an easy fight, when you recover your power level will be 1030. If you fight a more difficult opponent who almost kills you (your power level is reduced to almost 0) then once you recover your power level would be 1300. I tried to work it out once in a power level list what the gain would be for other races. I think (and don’t try to call me on these levels) Namiks got about 7% and humans got about 5.

[*PINHEAD*]

I think the near-death/death experience give the same effect. I don't like getting technical in Dragon Ball, but that's my view on the "zenkai" thing.
And I'm not so sure about a set percentage of how Saiyans' power boosts. I think it depends on the circumstances, how much power was depleted, how much power is needed, and such.

[Zackarotto]

Dete koi tobikiri ZENKAI POWER.

[Jerseymilk]

Everybody that saw that one coming raise their hand. *raises hand*

[Zackarotto]

I was surprised that nobody else already had, so even though it was unbearably retarded, I did it. *raises hand*

[ThunderPX]

I believe that what Fuujin meant is that when a person dies, the damage disappears (for example, when Goku died at the beginning of Z, he didn't have a giant hole in his stomach in the afterlife. When Vegeta blew himself up, he wasn't blown to bits in the afterlife). The damage also doesn't return when the person is revived (obviously, or they'd die again). Therefore, the person can't gain any power because the damage simply disappears.