Kai Episode 80 (7th November 2010)

[RazorX]

General Discussion for Dragon Ball Kai episode 80. Aired 7th November 2010.

形勢逆転！完全体セル、ついに始動
Keisei Gyakuten! Kanzentai Seru, Tsui ni Shidō
The Tables Have Turned! Perfect Form Cell Finally Goes into Action

[JulieYBM]

This week on Dragon Ball Kai...!! Cell's terrifying perfect form is unleashed. Can Vegeta fend off the power of Wakamoto Perfection?! What's more, Gohan has finally become a Super Saiyan!!

Dragon Ball covered: 11 pages into #382, ended with #383.
Dragon Ball Z covered: finished up #160, ended about 5.5 minutes into #162.

Next week...!! Vegeta performs the Final Flash!! Of course, he still loses.

Really thought Wakamoto's Perfect Cell was on this week. While his previous two forms' voices have changed he's brought what we always expect.

[Ahiru77]

New eyecatcher in this episode, but I'm watching LQ so it's no use posting it just yet.

Gohan's breakthrough...*sigh*....that with the scene from the last week, I still find that we have really seen enough from Goku & Gohan. So they could have left the "Room of Suffer and Torment"-scene in. And done it like the dub, cause listening only to Vegeta is like listening to a broken record.

Anybody surprised that they left Kienzan in there ??? Cause I kind of got the idea from the internet that it broke canon.

At the end I was like "Vegeta!!! Hurry up!!! Do your Fineru Flaaaahhh quick, the girls are coming!!".....but he didn't make it.

[Senzu_Bean]

Anybody surprised that they left Kienzan in there ??? Cause I kind of got the idea from the internet that it broke canon.

It doesn't. And it only further shows how fucking strong Cell is compared to everybody else.

[Mewzard]

Anybody surprised that they left Kienzan in there ??? Cause I kind of got the idea from the internet that it broke canon.

It doesn't. And it only further shows how fucking strong Cell is compared to everybody else.

In the manga, we never see the Kienzan fail to cut someone, no matter how much stronger the foe is. Even Krillin vs Freeza, with Krillin still having to be in his Ginyu Force fighting area of power (aka he should at least be 50 times weaker than form 2 Freeza when he cuts through his tail like nothing).

Add in the fact that Cell's body regenerating usually means it can get damaged far more often in series, just to have a recovery, and there is just no reason for the technique to have failed. None at all. It contradicts every showing of the technique, and is nothing but a plothole inducing filler bit that should have been removed. Strength has nothing to do with whether or not the technique hurts you, it goes through everything.

[Ashy-kun]

Well, Kurilin does comment on the failure.

"Freeza datte kirisaita Kienzan ga-..."

Or "My Energy Circular Slicer, which cut even Freeza up..." (The verb he was going to use isn't said, because he cuts himself off in fear and then Cell kicks him, before he can finish.)

In other news, did anyone else feel that this particular episode's pace was a bit off, and almost a little too rushed? At least at the beginning.

[KaiserNeko]

I fully agree, the failure of the Kienzan is bull. It should have just been cut out.

[Senzu_Bean]

I fully agree, the failure of the Kienzan is bull. It should have just been cut out.

I'm glad I don't think that way, otherwise I would be bitch about it.

[MR.Mark]

I fully agree, the failure of the Kienzan is bull. It should have just been cut out.

Agreed, Goku was able to cut through the much more powerful Buu with one after all.

[T Pac]

I'm usually a stickler about maintaining canonicity, but I actually didn't mind the Kienzan scene getting left out, just because I think it's annoying how overpowered the attack is -- what I really, really wish they would have removed was the filler scene with the Kienzan from the Freeza arc.

[Ashy-kun]

Uhhh, which filler scene? Doesn't Kurilin's Energy Circular Slicer also cut off part of Freeza's tail in the manga as well?

[Deity]

I have no problem with the Kienzan not cutting Cell. I can see Cell being so powerful that he creates a simple ki barrier around his neck and not be hurt. It even happened right after transforming, which is when characters usually exhibit more strength and energy. When Kuririn sliced Freeza he caught him off guard and everything, and the gap between that form Freeza and Kuririn wasn't THAAAAT much, when compared to the gap between Kuririn and Perfect Cell.
Super Vegeta's most powerful kick to Cell's vital spot didn't do anything, so why should Kuririn's kienzan decapitate him ? Wouldn't it be the ultimate tecnique if it could slice through anyone, no matter how much stronger the foe was ?

[dan2026]

Uhhh, which filler scene? Doesn't Kurilin's Energy Circular Slicer also cut off part of Freeza's tail in the manga as well?

Yes it does.
I don't know what he means

[dbgtFO]

Super Vegeta's most powerful kick to Cell's vital spot didn't do anything, so why should Kuririn's kienzan decapitate him ? Wouldn't it be the ultimate tecnique if it could slice through anyone, no matter how much stronger the foe was ?

It actually is unless your opponent is able to regenerate, which was supposed to be a surprise for Vegeta(after thinking he beat Cell with his Final Flash). That is why Kuririn didn't use it in the manga, it was PIS. Just think about how easy it would have been to defeat every opponent who can't use regeneration. Kuririn could have killed all the androids, if they weren't fast enough to evade it, but since the plot requires that humans are close to useless, when it comes to defeating new villains, their best techniques were only used, when the power difference was so big, that it was unable to defeat the main villain anyway.
Tenshinhan's fully powered Shin Kikoho was able to render second form Cell unable to move, so why didn't Ten use this attack on the androids when Trunks attacked #18?

[Senzu_Bean]

I'm still wondering where that idea of Kienzan can inflict damage to opponents much stronger than its user came from. It is the ultimate way of throwing out ki and power through the toilet. It is like saying Final Flash kills everything, no matter how strong, cause the only instance we see it being used supposed "killed" Cell, if wasn't for its regeneration. Ridiculous to say the least but it doesn't have anything to do with me.

Anyway, I absolutely loved the music that played when Vegeta was getting all desperated. It really showed how hopeless the situation really is.

[Mewzard]

I'm still wondering where that idea of Kienzan can inflict damage to opponents much stronger than its user came from. It is the ultimate way of throwing out ki and power through the toilet. It is like saying Final Flash kills everything, no matter how strong, cause the only instance we see it being used supposed "killed" Cell, if wasn't for its regeneration. Ridiculous but it doesn't have anything to do with me.

Anyway, I absolutely loved the music that played when Vegeta was getting all desperated. It really showed how hopeless the situation really is.

I would say it came from the fact that it never failed to cut a foe, no matter how much stronger they were compared to the user. That filler scene aside, there is not a scene that contradicts this fact. In canon, it never fails to cut. It might miss, but when it hits, it cuts.

[Senzu_Bean]

I'm still wondering where that idea of Kienzan can inflict damage to opponents much stronger than its user came from. It is the ultimate way of throwing out ki and power through the toilet. It is like saying Final Flash kills everything, no matter how strong, cause the only instance we see it being used supposed "killed" Cell, if wasn't for its regeneration. Ridiculous but it doesn't have anything to do with me.

Anyway, I absolutely loved the music that played when Vegeta was getting all desperated. It really showed how hopeless the situation really is.

I would say it came from the fact that it never failed to cut a foe, no matter how much stronger they were compared to the user. That filler scene aside, there is not a scene that contradicts this fact. In canon, it never fails to cut. It might miss, but when it hits, it cuts.[/quote]

Awesome... Final Flash also can kill everything except beings with regeneration. Makankosappo and Big Bang too. And Kikoho cannot kill anybody, no matter how strong the user is compared to his opponent, cause it never killed anybody.

Come on! What fucked up retardish logic is that? Nothing come close to suggest Kienzan cuts through everything no matter the power. Don't come at me with fan-made up stupid logic.

[T Pac]

Uhhh, which filler scene? Doesn't Kurilin's Energy Circular Slicer also cut off part of Freeza's tail in the manga as well?

Yes it does.
I don't know what he means

Sorry, I should have been more clear -- in the anime, Kuririn fires a huge Kienzan which breaks up into a bunch of smaller ones that all attack the target at once. Could have easily been removed from Kai.

[Mewzard]

I'm still wondering where that idea of Kienzan can inflict damage to opponents much stronger than its user came from. It is the ultimate way of throwing out ki and power through the toilet. It is like saying Final Flash kills everything, no matter how strong, cause the only instance we see it being used supposed "killed" Cell, if wasn't for its regeneration. Ridiculous but it doesn't have anything to do with me.

Anyway, I absolutely loved the music that played when Vegeta was getting all desperated. It really showed how hopeless the situation really is.

I would say it came from the fact that it never failed to cut a foe, no matter how much stronger they were compared to the user. That filler scene aside, there is not a scene that contradicts this fact. In canon, it never fails to cut. It might miss, but when it hits, it cuts.

Awesome... Final Flash also can kill everything except beings with regeneration. Makankosappo and Big Bang too. And Kikoho cannot kill anybody, no matter how strong the user is compared to his opponent, cause it never killed anybody.

Come on! What fucked up retardish logic is that? Nothing come close to suggest Kienzan cuts through everything no matter the power. Don't come at me with fan-made up stupid logic.[/quote]

There's no need to swear or use mental deficiencies as an insult. If it does have such problems as you claim, you need only argue your side.

And you seem to miss the point entirely. We've seen the attack used several times. Nappa was several fold stronger than Krillin, yet it still cut him. Krillin was weaker than Vegeta who lost to Nappa (over 20,000), while form 2 Freeza was "Over One Million". Being generous, and saying Krillin was 20,000 when he attacked, would mean that Krillin was at least 50 times weaker than Freeza (likely more). That's not even considering Base Goku cutting Super Buu with Gotenks Absorbed in half, which would be countless fold difference.

It definitely never failed in canon against godly foes (comparatively) many times. There's proof.

[KaiserNeko]

Awesome... Final Flash also can kill everything except beings with regeneration. Makankosappo and Big Bang too. And Kikoho cannot kill anybody, no matter how strong the user is compared to his opponent, cause it never killed anybody.

Come on! What fucked up retardish logic is that? Nothing come close to suggest Kienzan cuts through everything no matter the power. Don't come at me with fan-made up stupid logic.

The entire point behind the Kienzan, apparently, is that it's so thin that it doesn't matter what it hits, it can cut through anything.

Also, you're sounding really condescending and insulting. That's not getting you anywhere.