Mr. Buu - Plothole?

[dbgtFO]

So after I went through the Majin Buu arc, I started to wonder, how Mr. Buu is even able to exist!
If we look at the original text, when Buu finishes his transformation into "Kid" Buu, "Kibitoshin" tells us about Majin Buu's creation and why we first saw him as Fat Buu.

The Elder Kaioshin goes on to ask: "So he was finally completed…Meaning…that this small Majin Boo now…is the very first and most troublesome one of all…"
Kaioshin: "…Yes…His heart which he obtained by lowering his power through absorption, has returned to normal…He has no restraint whatsoever…He’s become evil itself…" (as translated by Herms)here is the original version!

But how can he be completed? We know he WASN'T created as two seperate beings, and yet he still found a way to go back to his original form.

The only thing, that might imply, that he wasn't 100% evil, is Vegeta almost killing Mr. Buu, due to believing that he still posesses evil inside of him. last panel

But Vegeta wasn't present, when "Kibitoshin" told his story and AFAIK doesn't the narrator state, that ALL of Fat Buu's evil left him, when he split in two? Narrator box deserves special mention, since it's the narrator!

What do you think about this plothole?
Are you able to ignore it, due to it is the Buu arc and all?
Or do you consider it an insult to your intelligence?
Or are you able to explain it, so it makes sense?

[Bussani]

Are you asking how we explain that both Kid Buu and Mr. Buu can simultaneously exist? If so, I never had a problem accepting it. We see something similar with Kami and Piccolo Daimao, after all, and Fat Buu producing Skinny Buu seems very similar to that. I guess you could explain it as a splitting of hearts, with the bodies naturally seem to follow under these strange circumstances.

Maybe the simplest answer is that the Dai Kaioshin had to go somewhere, and could no longer be entirely removed from Buu, thus Mr. Buu was the only form it could take.

[dbgtFO]

Are you asking how we explain that both Kid Buu and Mr. Buu can simultaneously exist? If so, I never had a problem accepting it. We see something similar with Kami and Piccolo Daimao, after all, and Fat Buu producing Skinny Buu seems very similar to that. I guess you could explain it as a splitting of hearts, with the bodies naturally seem to follow under these strange circumstances.

Maybe the simplest answer is that the Dai Kaioshin had to go somewhere, and could no longer be entirely removed from Buu, thus Mr. Buu was the only form it could take.

I'm asking about your thoughts on this issue, if you consider it a plothole or are able to explain it somehow.

Skinny Buu I can get, but my primary question is how the original form and a polluted version of that same form can exist at the same time. To me it's an obvious plothole unless someone has a really good explanation for it!!

[Bussani]

Skinny Buu I can get, but my primary question is how the original form and a polluted version of that same form can exist at the same time. To me it's an obvious plothole unless someone has a really good explanation for it!!

Well, I don't think Buu makes a lot of linear sense, but he almost makes sense in a non-linear way. It's kind of hard for me to explain how I see it, though. If I try to put it simply...you have to remove everything from Buu to return it to the pure, Kid Buu, right? Which means removing Dai Kaioshin. But Dai Kaioshin seems to be too firmly engraved in Buu now, and so we have this little Mr. Buu that was left behind when Skinny Buu was created. It's removing this, the bit of Buu that holds the Dai Kaioshin influence, that returns the rest of Buu back to Kid Buu.

Like I said, Buu's a big non-linear mess. He's not simply a collection of these components, but the components themselves sometimes change a bit, too. It's probably the moment that Fat Buu splits into Skinny and Mr. that changes all the rules, since that's the point that he stops just being Kid Buu + a bunch of absorbed gods and becomes two more abstract entities.

[rereboy]

Kid Buu was the original.

Then he absorbed South Kaioshin and became Buff Buu.

Then he absorbed the highest of the Gods, the Dai Kaioshin. Due to his absolute holy condition, nature and pure heart, the Dai Kaioshin affected him terribly, taming his "heart" and also decreasing much of his power, becoming weaker than he should have been after having absorbed the Kaioshins. He became playful but still very dangerous, powerful and he still had plenty of evil.

Then Mr. Satan taught him the basic values of friendship and understanding. Good became the primary force in his heart. However, when Mr. Satan was shot, his rage, his anger, his need for revenge, his evil, were too great to resist. But since good had become the primary force in his heart, he expelled his evil side to avoid letting evil take him over. Thus, skinny buu was born. However, its important to realize that this skinny buu is not Fat Buu minus all the influence the Kaioshin had on him. No, in fact, both of them are the being that was formed when the Kaioshin were absorbed. They are both Fat Evil Buu. They are the good and evil of Fat Evil Buu, two faces in a coin, both are the being that was influenced by the Kaioshins. And just like between Piccolo and Kami, a link between them was formed, a link between their souls.

Skinny Buu was more powerful, so he defeated Mr. Buu easily. But he wanted more. So, he ate/absorbed him. He added Mr. Buu`s power to his own and became Super Buu, a being even more powerful than the original being had been (Fat Evil Buu), because Fat Evil Buu`s goodness had tamed his power greatly, and Super Buu, although he had some restrains (he still remembered Mr. Satan), he had very, very few of them left, so he has able to use virtually all his power untamed. Basically, Super Buu is the being that would have formed if the Dai Kaioshin hadn`t tamed him so greatly. But something else very important happened: the link between their souls was broken with the absorption, in order to create the new being, Super Buu. The link only existed between Mr. Buu and Skinny Buu, and they both existed as or in Super Buu, so the link ceased to exist in the creation of the new being.

So, Super Buu fought against the gang, absorbing Gotenks, Piccolo and Gohan, transforming himself and becoming increasingly more powerful, until Goku and Vegeta removed them from inside his body. He reverted back to Super Buu with no complications. But when they removed Mr. Buu, there were complications... Super Buu couldn`t revert back to Skinny Buu because that would imply that the soul link still existed or that it had been reformed, but that was impossible because once broken it couldn`t be formed again... So his body endured great stress and basically suffered a devolution process, making him revert back eventually to his basic, original form, Kid Buu.
Basically, his body had to reset itself to his most basic form given the complications of removing Mr. Buu, getting rid of all that it had gained with the numerous absorptions/transformations, since it couldn`t revert back to what it should revert back to (Skinny Buu). So, he briefly reverted back to Buff Buu because his body was getting rid of all that excess and it started with what it had gained with the Dai Kaioshin and only then it got rid of what it had gained with South Kaioshin, becoming Kid Buu again.

And this is basically how I explain all the Buus.

(EDIT: as for where the South Kaioshin and Dai Kaioshin are, I believe they don`t exist anymore and were totally absorbed/dissolved into Buu as the years went by. But even if they still existed, they would be physically inside Mr. Buu, despite Skinny Buu also having their influence, because Skinny Buu was as much Fat Evil Buu as Mr Buu was. So, Goku and Vegeta wouldn`t encounter them while inside Super Buu´s body either way. But, that aside, I believe they don`t exist anymore and were completely absorbed/dissolved into Buu).

[Bussani]

I mostly see it the same way as rereboy. Skinny Buu eating Mr. Buu is more or less the same as if Fat Buu's evil had taken over him and transformed him on the spot, isolating the Dai Kaioshin part of himself somewhere within him in much the same way that ends up happening anyway. We end up with Kid Buu and Mr. Buu because that Dai Kaioshin influence had to go somewhere, but couldn't be completely separated from...Buu-stuff at that stage. It would be more or less the same if it had been Dai Kaioshin himself they'd found inside Super Buu instead of Mr. Buu, if that makes sense.

I don't even know what happened to Buff Kaioshin. It's like he got digested into oblivion when everything reverted to Kid Buu.

[rereboy]

I don't even know what happened to Buff Kaioshin. It's like he got digested into oblivion when everything reverted to Kid Buu.

I`ve edited my post to include my explanation of that.

[MetalMadness]

I've given up on trying to make sense of Buu's anatomy, Toriyama really dun goofed.

There really is no way to make sense of it. In the end of all of this, you still somehow have 2 Kid Buus out of nowhere, one which reverts from Super Buu and another one which became Fat Buu after absorbing Dai Kaioshin and Buff Kaioshin

[Bussani]

There really is no way to make sense of it. In the end of all of this, you still somehow have 2 Kid Buus out of nowhere, one which reverts from Super Buu and another one which became Fat Buu after absorbing Dai Kaioshin and Buff Kaioshin

I don't see why that's so strange when we accept the nameless namekian splitting in two, and Buu's much more of a magical blob of regenerating goop than he was.

[MetalMadness]

There really is no way to make sense of it. In the end of all of this, you still somehow have 2 Kid Buus out of nowhere, one which reverts from Super Buu and another one which became Fat Buu after absorbing Dai Kaioshin and Buff Kaioshin

I don't see why that's so strange when we accept the nameless namekian splitting in two, and Buu's much more of a magical blob of regenerating goop than he was.

Well you see I would be perfectly fine with it if Super Buu reverted back to Dark Skinny Buu, because that would have made more sense. The fact that he reverted to Kid Buu makes no sense because where did that Kid Buu even come from? It makes even less sense that he reverted to Buff Buu first, how did that even happen?

The only way this could make sense is that if they went into Fat Buu's body, took out Dai Kaioshin, which would revert him to Buff Buu, and then take out Buff Kaioshin, which would revert him to Kid Buu.

[rereboy]

There really is no way to make sense of it. In the end of all of this, you still somehow have 2 Kid Buus out of nowhere, one which reverts from Super Buu and another one which became Fat Buu after absorbing Dai Kaioshin and Buff Kaioshin

I don't see why that's so strange when we accept the nameless namekian splitting in two, and Buu's much more of a magical blob of regenerating goop than he was.

Well you see I would be perfectly fine with it if Super Buu reverted back to Dark Skinny Buu, because that would have made more sense. The fact that he reverted to Kid Buu makes no sense because where did that Kid Buu even come from? It makes even less sense that he reverted to Buff Buu first, how did that even happen?

The only way this could make sense is that if they went into Fat Buu's body, took out Dai Kaioshin, which would revert him to Buff Buu, and then take out Buff Kaioshin, which would revert him to Kid Buu.

Well, I`ve already offered a logical explanation to that, so its not impossible to explain. You might not agree with the explanation, but it is coherent.
The only problem is that Toriyama didn`t exactly explained what happened and why in the manga, creating confusing in the reader.

[dbgtFO]

Well, I`ve already offered a logical explanation to that, so its not impossible to explain. You might not agree with the explanation, but it is coherent.
The only problem is that Toriyama didn`t exactly explained what happened and why in the manga, creating confusing in the reader.

Yeah and it doens't seem like any of the Daizenshuus went into any more depth about it, that the manga or the anime did.

I do like your theory Rereboy, I have always thought that Mr. Buu and Evil Buu had a smiliar spiritual connection to the one Kami and Piccolo had.
And from what I remember from old topics it seems like many users explain it that way as well.
This is just an even better way to explain it in my opinion.

[MetalMadness]

Well, I`ve already offered a logical explanation to that, so its not impossible to explain. You might not agree with the explanation, but it is coherent.
The only problem is that Toriyama didn`t exactly explained what happened and why in the manga, creating confusing in the reader.

I never said that I disagreed with your explanation, in fact it's actually pretty good although rather complicated, I mean if I have a friend who is watching the show and asks why he reverted this form, it'll be pretty damn tough to explain why.

We are basically forcing ourselves to find a way or reason as to why this transformation occurred, when we shouldn't be. The reason should be laid out, plain and simple, but it isn't. It just makes it painfully obvious that Toriyama did not plan to make Kid Buu the final villain, and was probably under pressure by his editor/fans and had to change the story.

[penguintruth]

"It's magic. We don't have to explain it."

[Kaboom]

I've given my two dollars on this before, so let's see if I can't do it again.

We start out with Kid Boo. He's an evil little sucker, and he starts destroying stuff and eventually fights some Kaioshins. The super-strong South Kaioshin is too much for him to handle, so Kid Boo is forced to absorb him, more or less doubling his power and becoming "Buff" Boo. Then along comes the Grand Kaioshin, whom Boo is also ultimately forced to absorb. This time, however, it has the opposite effect. Grand Kaioshin's goodness and pureness of heart has a debilitating effect on Majin Boo, not only turning him from buff into a fatso, but also taming his savage personality and greatly decreasing his power, to the point where he's moderately weaker than he started out. This jolly "Fat" Boo is sealed away for a few millennia.

Some time after Boo is revived, he ends up expelling his inner evil, and this evil takes form and becomes a new being all its own. This is where things get tricky. This new "Skinny" Boo is nothing more than that; concentrated evil power. He is an incomplete being, who only resembles Boo because that's whom he was expelled from.

When he absorbs Mister Boo, he becomes much more powerful. The same "ingredients" are all still there as were in Fat Boo, except now the evil side is in control, and thus we have "Super" Boo. But in addition to that, he's now regained a soul and become a complete being all of his own again. He's regained some amount of the "Boo-ness" that he lacked as the Skinny Boo.

With Fat Boo absorbed, but with his evil side in control, Super Boo gets his power from the South Kaioshin, even though he can't access all of it (he also gets power from Gotenks, Piccolo, and Gohan, but they're extra and not important to the process). Having another Boo absorbed rather than just whoever is a much more complicated and intricate process than otherwise. So when Mister Boo is removed later, things get crazy and unpleasant for Boo as he reverts. The Grand Kaioshin's influence is removed first, killing Boo's restraint and personality. He then temporarily gains power, as South Kaioshin's influence momentarily surges to the surface before disappearing.

In the end, all outside influence has been removed, resulting in a new "copy" of the original Kid Boo. Apparently he kept some extra power from somewhere in order to return to his original level, since he's much stronger than Skinny Boo was.

[Chibi Mystic Gohan]

A wizard did it.

Literally.

[Terra-jin]

It helps if you realize that second appearance of Kid Buu was actually the evil half of the original Kid Buu. However, Kid Buu was already pure evil himself, so you wouldn't be able to tell the difference. Same being, same personality... only half a spirit.

[Kendamu]

I like rereboy's explanation, but I always went with the "IT'S MAGIC! NOW SHUT UP!" route because, well, it's magic. It doesn't need to make sense.

[Cipher]

Both Fat Buu and Skinny Buu had the template for the original form in them all along. It's just that they both had Kaioshin influence at first.

When Fat Buu was removed, all the influences of the Kaioshin went with him. Skinny Buu was a form that also had influences of the Kaioshin (being the evil that still existed in the Kaioshin-absorbed form).

No Kaioshin influence = no Skinny Buu. I guess this is a slightly less detailed version of Rereboy's explanation.

But mostly, it's magic. Hey guys, how did the Old Kaioshin draw out Gohan's power like that? That doesn't seem to make a whole lot of sense.

[Bussani]

Well you see I would be perfectly fine with it if Super Buu reverted back to Dark Skinny Buu, because that would have made more sense. The fact that he reverted to Kid Buu makes no sense because where did that Kid Buu even come from? It makes even less sense that he reverted to Buff Buu first, how did that even happen?

I do think it's a mistake to expect the magical blob creature to be that straight forward. It seems pretty simple to me, anyway; removing all influences turned him back into his purest form, and the last influences were wrapped in a Mr. Buu shaped package.

I still think the moment Skinny Buu comes out is when everything gets shuffled up. He took most of the power from the split, right? So the Fat Buu that's left wasn't the same Fat Buu as before--he'd already become Mr. Buu. Then they recombine, so Super Buu has all the same components that Fat Buu did, but everything got rearranged. Mr. Buu represents everything good about him at that point. Without that, you go back to Kid Buu.