Goku as a martial artist by real world standards

[lonewolf]

Without using any superhuman powers and abilities, do you think Goku is a real martial artist by real world standards?

[Perfect]

Why wouldn't he be? He learned kung fu from his grandfather and various other types of martial arts from his mentors.

[goku the krump dancer]

I agree with Perfect. Also most people dont see Goku as a true martial artist because of the super human abilities.

[MisterFlashdude]

Goku is not a martial artist. He is a fighter. If he ever was a martial artist prior to his introduction, he abandoned the practice by the time he's shown up to the viewer. Goku's self training consists entirely of physical conditioning. His formal training consists entirely of physical conditioning. Most of his fights are entirely dependent on who's physically stronger. I'd imagine this is mostly because Toriyama himself isn't a martial artist and has little knowledge of martial arts training, stances, kata, or technique. It's actually pointed out in the dialogue at one point in the middle of the Kame-sennin training, with Goku asking if he was ever going to actually teach them "fighting moves".

I'd feel like I wasted a lot of people's time and money if I tried to make even a single two-hour class entirely devoted to exercise. I know martial arts instructors who do this. But really, these people don't need me to teach them how to do jumping jacks and push ups. And I'd be one of the worst teachers in the world if I prepared a student for a tournament by making them jog with heavy back packs on for 8 months.

Goku is more like Superman with Richard Simmon's life style, and I certainly wouldn't qualify either of them as martial artists.

[Perfect]

He didn't abandon Kung fu before his introduction, he's seen to continually use various kung fu "moves" and "varieties". You may also notice that while Goku benefits from increasing his physical strength, he has to use skill as well in some cases (Despite the circumstance). You may also notice that Toriyama focuses on stances very much (At one point Krillin compliments Goku on his stance during Z, Cell Games I believe). Why does he do this? Because in terms of martial arts he referenced various actors in movies, such as Jackie Chan.

By definition Goku is indeed a martial artist.

any of the traditional forms of Oriental self-defense or combat that utilize physical skill and coordination without weapons, as karate, aikido, judo, or kung fu, often practiced as sport.

Goku holds a ton of physical skill as well as coordination without weapons (We've seen him fight plenty without that damn magic stick). You'll also notice that as time continues on in the manga, Goku's stances change, the way he fight seems to take a different approach. Also you'll notice that in the anime (Taking the manga's wording through visible context) when Vegeta recalls Goku's hit to Reacoom, his chi is shown to exert from a single point. Goku since his training with Kami-sama has always been able to utilize chi with martial arts, it's not the "LOOK HE HAS SUPER POWERS AND HES SUPER FAST" type deal, there's still a system of ever changing self-defense going on, which is natural seeing that Goku's character evolves so much. It's not over analyzing, it's having an eye for detail (Even if some of the martial arts stuff Toriyama uses is made up [Adding to a unique feel and other varieties as well], Cell).

Also you're wrong, martial arts requires exercise to be done properly. You'll receive antagonistic tension on the elongated muscles, which will defect your movement greatly. Such exercise like skipping provide a sense of balance and whatnot. Each type of activity serves a purpose. Lifting weights and aerobics also serves as a great importance in martial arts, and unless you want to have an accident like Bruce Lee did (From improper lifting), you'll need to learn how to do everything right.

One of the most neglected elements of martial arts is the physical workout. Too much time is spent on developing skill in techniques and not enough in physical participation.

There's a bit more to this, but you might as well buy the book if you want to know the rest (The quote should suffice without any more to it). Of course there's also the fact that many dojos have a single purpose, scamming you. However others are not like that, at all. You wouldn't be a bad teacher for that, since in the army they do that all the time (Though for purposes being that you'll have to given a tour). Some martial artists also wear weighted vests and clothing, which works their cardiovascular system and various muscles (Don't forget endurance).

[MisterFlashdude]

Keep in mind the guy's asking about Goku's potential as a martial artist by real world standards. Saying Goku's martial arts skills have improved because of his proficiency with chi is like saying Harry Potter's a great marksman because he's good at using Expeliarmus. Also, "Janken" doesn't count as kung fu.
His stances are indeed also very theatrical and rarely ones I'd consider practical, ignoring the various times his stance has been merely standing with his arms held out horizontally or simply... standing with no stance at all, which also impresses everyone around him.

Also, I can't go along with the simple definition of a martial artist by the way you're interpreting it. I've got a guy who sits near me in college who boasts about how he knocks kids teeth out in the parking lot after his class... I'm sure he's plenty coordinated and practiced in the art of beating the shit out of someone, but I'd definitely cringe if someone insisted he be classified as a martial artist.

Also you're wrong, martial arts requires exercise to be done properly.

I absolutely never said not to exercise. Out of our two hour class, the initial 25 to 30 minutes are warm up exercises and stretching. Almost every class also involves kata and kumite, in addition to physical training of the non-exercise variety. I can't remember a class that hasn't ended with sweat soaked uniforms. Further, I actively encourage the class to pursue exercise and a healthy life style on their own time. What I was trying to convey was there's more to training than physical conditioning, and if that's the crux of your regimen then you might as well just join a gym.

Training in Dragon Ball consists of months of weight training, followed by climbing a pole, followed by exercising in low oxygen conditions, then exercising with heavy gravity, then... more gravity... and of course, gravity with weights... Occasionally you have to survive in the wilderness for a while...

But if you think this is practical by "real world" standards, I'll try throwing some weights on a 12 year old kid and make him jog for a year.

[Perfect]

Yes, take away the fact he's not human and chi, boom, real world standards. Goku never increased his actual fighting abilities by conditioning. He increased those by learning from his opponents, thus experience. He has stances in which he's been wide open, I believe that's actually commented on. Why would someone stand like that? Simply speaking, inexperience. You'll notice that Goku never fights like that during Z or later matches.

That's the generalized definition of what martial arts is, by nearly all of them (If not all) Goku classifies as one. Yes, 15-30 minutes is a great amount of time to warm up, ballet dancers take hours to warm up sometimes. In terms of warming up, climate is a big variable. The warmer the temperature, the less time you take to warm up, the inverse here is obvious. The actual conditioning of a work out should be longer and harder, involving intense training (Depending on your skill level).

You're missing something, conditioning is just as big of a part as any other part of martial arts training. The physical workout goes hand in hand with technique and skill. It's equally as important, there's a very big difference between that and a gym.

I had to laugh at your last few lines, they're really going out of context in the post. It's like saying, "He fired a chi blast, that doesn't conform to real world standards", or, "He jumped over 100 yards in the air, that doesn't conform to real world standards". Goku's naivety is what allows him to perceive things so quickly, and also why he's so kind hearted. This why he's able to adapt to learning techniques and fighting moves just by watching, in most cases, by fighting with someone. There's various instances of that. That's what allowed Goku to learn martial arts, while mainly concentrating on physical workouts during training sessions. You're acting like we're taking the activities that the characters did and applying them to the real world, in which that's not what we're doing.

You'll also notice that by Baba's appearance Son Gohan is commented to be an incredibly gifted martial artist, not only by legend, but by textual context through Yamcha.

Yamcha: “What?!! The martial arts master Son Gohan…!? Th-that monster must be absolutely incredible”

Yamcha: “Just as I suspected…Son Gohan is such a master that he’s said to be unsurpassed in all the various forms of martial arts…”

Kame-sennin: “I have practically nothing to teach you that could be called ‘kenpou’. [ ] All the basics of the Kame-sen School of martial arts has been included in the training which you’ve been doing every day these 7 months. It seems you haven’t realized it, but your eyes, firsts, legs, your entire body, and even your mind have been toughened up. ‘Kenpou’ is nothing more than putting that into practice. You don’t strive in the martial arts to win, but rather to not lose to yourself. For that purpose, go study kenpou on your own, thinking on your own how to utilize the basics which you have learned.”

If we were to take away Goku's chi, Saiyan ancestry and put him in the real world (Ignoring all the other problems like, how would Goku even get there, what would he look like, etc), he'd likely be one of the world's strongest. This is taking away all of the other factors like, how would Goku act? Would he know what to do without his techniques? For this hypothetical situation to work really, we'd just have to assume Goku was born in the real world, fought pretty much the same opponents, humanoid versions, not taking into mind the actual special properties some opponents have (We can just incorporate the way they fight into a normal person). Given all the knowledge Goku's received in martial arts, is he a martial artists in real world standards? Yes, very much so.

Another definition I like:

Martial arts (literally meaning arts of war[1] but usually referred as fighting arts) are systems of codified practices and traditions of combat. Martial arts all have similar objectives: to physically defeat other persons or defend oneself or others from physical threat.

[p123]

Goku is definitley a martial artists. A person who lives there life the way he does would certainly qualify for one. If you train your whole life basically, and put your training before anything else, you are indeed a martial artist. Goku in the real world without ki? Sadly, Goku would not be anything special. Perhaps he could be the greatest striker in the world, which would be a huge bonus, but for all this grappling they seem to talk about, at least in Herms translation, they never do any. In a pure one on one approach , Grappling >>>>> Striking... Strikers just rarely every get the chance to strike when a grappler is trying to grapple.


So realistically, Goku could be the best striker in the world, he surely has high level karate, which by the way, is completely inferior to Muay Thai and Goku's level of karate would never survive a Muay Thai clinic, that's besides the point, Goku even as the greatest striker in the world, would be instantly taken down by anyone who was in decent shape and have as little as high school wreslting pedigree, and would be on his back getting a hole beaten into his head with no skills to avoid, counter, or get up...


This is where DB just came out a bit too early... Surely if Dragonball would have been written now, wrestling/BJJ would be apart of the fighting style, which make said fighting style 100x more efficient...


So yes, Royce Gracie chokes out Goku within a minute, if Goku did not have his ki powers...

[Ussj Future Trunks]

So would Cell be a martial artist if he has the cells of the "greatest fighters"? Or because he didn't train, he's just a monster/fighter?

[Perfect]

Cell's clearly a martial artist... Just his body is quite a bit more efficient than average living being, but that's a different topic all together.