Is Coola a liar and/or stupid?

[Nazi Cola]

Was Coola lying when he implied he knew the extent of Freeza's power? After he and Goku fought underwater for a bit, they surfaced and Coola said Goku was strong enough to have defeated Freeza. Then later on after Goku goes Super Saiyan, he says that's enough to have beaten Freeza as well (if I remember correctly).

So was Coola lying, or did he really know how powerful Freeza truly was?

[p123]

I don't think he was... Why would he be? Just because we hate to think of Base Goku that strong, doesn't mean he was lieing. It just means Base Goku is retardedly strong...

Seeing how Goku got a 33x zenkai in the Freeza Saga, Goku getting nearly a 50x zenkai in the Cooler movie, would actually go hand in hand with Freeza Saga logic.. TOEI cannot predict the future, so they would go off of what has just been shown...


I think


Base Goku Movie 5 = SSJ Goku Namek > 100% Freeza >= Cooler


Is the correct way to determine Cooler's true strength. He is an absolute beast..

[Savage68]

There's no discrepancy at all between the two statements.

The first is basically saying that Goku fought "well enough" to have defeated Freeza.
The second is confirming the first, and going even further by Coola realizing that Freeza was "no match" for Goku.

[Fox666]

Movies and fillers always threat the Super Saiyan as a small boost. I.e. Goku vs Pikkon

[Nazi Cola]

But how do we know Coola really knows Freeza's true power? After all, didn't Freeza say he'd only transformed a few times?

[Savage68]

But how do we know Coola really knows Freeza's true power?

We don't. But the implication is strong enough on it's own.

[Travis Touchdown]

Movies and fillers always threat the Super Saiyan as a small boost. I.e. Goku vs Paikuhan

Well except Movie 5. Base Goku got kicked around and bullied by Cooler. However, once he went Super Saiyan, he basically became Superman. I believe there was even a scene where Cooler punches Goku, and like the Man of Steel, he just stood there like an unbreakable wall.

[Savage68]

That punch, however, had little force behind it. Goku's follow-up combo stunned Coola, but was also laughed off (a throwback to 100% Freeza's first assault on SSJ Goku). Coola's Supernova had Goku on the ropes, too, so the two obviously weren't in different tiers... contrary to popular belief.

[p123]

SSJ is a 50x boost in Movie 5. Base Goku > 100% Freeza. Goku uses Kaioken x10 and x20 against FF Cooler and get's pwned...


SSJ Goku
Final Form Cooler
KKx20 Goku
KKx10 Goku
Base Goku
100% Freeza ~ Cooler

[Fox666]

Broly >>> Goku SSJFP

Broly ~ Videl

[Vagrant]

Yeah, movies completely mess with power scaling. I think it's much more sensible, from an in-universe consideration, to simply say that Coola's initial comments were regarding Goku's fighting skill and his potential strength. This is somewhat supported by events in the Freeza arc, as below.

Even though Freeza wasn't able to read Goku's ki, he was still able to gauge that Goku wasn't giving it his all and that he had a secret stash of power. Now, this wasn't Goku not using all his base power, it was the Kaioken that Freeza had to be referring to. A technique which shouldn't have indicated anything to even anyone who could read ki. It seems it was simply more of an intuition that Freeza had, letting him know that Goku wasn't what he seemed. I honestly think that a similar thing took place with Coola.

Another theory I have is that due to the family's proclivity towards transforming to adapt their power, that Coola's secret form may simply be a way of streamlining the 100% power of the normal form in a way that doesn't bulk up the muscles and create fast power drain. In such a case, regular Coola would have the same range of resting power as Freeza's form, about 3-4 million and he would have sparred with regular base Goku in much the same way as Freeza. Combining the two ideas brings me to think that Coola is probably stronger than Freeza, but not by too much. I place him about equal to Namek SSj Goku in his secret form.

[lash]

But how do we know Coola really knows Freeza's true power? After all, didn't Freeza say he'd only transformed a few times?

We don't.

Which is why I choose to believe Cooler didn't, then assume base Goku was stronger then 100% Freeza. I really don't think that's what the movie would try and portray to us, even if the dialogue is a bit goofed up.

[p123]

Why would we, mere posters, know Freeza's power better than his own brother... Cooler implies he knows what Freeza's strength is, there's nothing to refute that...

Base Goku being stronger than Freeza is the normal POV considering if Goku received a zenkai, and was already stronger than he was on Namek, of course him receiving a 30-40x zenkai would be the normal POV considering he received a 33x zenkai on Namek...

Trying to twist logic to imply Cooler was 3 million is just nerfing of Cooler's massive power...

[Vagrant]

Or we could just be using sensible logic? You're honestly the only person I've ever seen who espouses that Base Goku is stronger than 100% Freeza in this movie, so don't try to act like every single other person has it wrong. Auto-evolutions are stated to become insignificant once Super Saiyajin is reached. This means no 40-50x boost for base Goku in the movie. It's very simple, you rule out the auto-evolution and the only possibility is that he's talking about Goku's skills and his potential/hidden power, which as we've seen Freeza do this before as well is hardly a stretch. And it doesn't needlessly blow out the strength of these people for no reason at all other than because we can.

The final thing is that Coola heavily implies that Freeza was either just a bit under him or indeed stronger than him until he unlocked the new form. This would basically mean that 70% Freeza would be somewhere in the vicinity of 70% Coola, and this means, since we don't see Coola bulking up against Goku, that he's not fighting at 100% power. Even if Coola does have a slight edge in power he'd still have to be hitting a bulked up state to be using that power, and yet he wasn't, which shows that Goku cannot be stronger than Freeza's 100% form.

In conjunction, everything suggests the exact opposite of what you're trying to convince everyone of.

Also, given how you seem to hold the assumption that movies share continuity (being that you assume Piccolo in Movie 7 must be fused with Kami since Dende shows up in Movie 6, which is itself a Coola movie) this would in turn mean that you must assume that Base Goku is stronger than Freeza and as such could kill Mecha Freeza pretty much as is. If this is the case, then for the Androids to beat him down, they in turn have to be hugely stronger than their canon counterparts. Which in turn pushes up the power of everything else to beyond reasonable levels as well. It's just silly to assume what you assume.

[Savage68]

You're honestly the only person I've ever seen who espouses that Base Goku is stronger than 100% Freeza in this movie, so don't try to act like every single other person has it wrong.

I've seen lots of people espouse that Goku was stronger than Freeza in his normal form. Since, y'know, that was pretty much stated.

The final thing is that Coola heavily implies that Freeza was either just a bit under him or indeed stronger than him until he unlocked the new form.

In FUNi's dub? Yes. In the original version? No.

[Vagrant]

Given how Coola corrects himself when he sees the Super Saiyajin form, the fact that he initially made some general comment about Freeza being beaten by the Goku he fights means just about jack squat. How do you justify him revising his statement, keeping in mind that if you're going to make a distinction between "he was defeated by this power" and "he was no match for this power" then why wouldn't he have made exactly the same comment about Kaioken? That too would have brought Goku far out of Freeza's league.

And again, ignoring the Daizenshuu's clarification that auto-evolutions just don't mean anything once Super Saiyajin is attained.

As for whether Coola is already stronger than Freeza, in the Japanese it's still not implied Coola was terrifically stronger than Freeza. Enough so that I still think that if he were at a level commensurate with 100% Freeza he'd have to be bulked up. That was my prime point there.

[Savage68]

Given how Coola corrects himself when he sees the Super Saiyajin form

Coola DID NOT correct himself, because there was nothing in the dialogue in need of a correction.

Coola initially mentions that Goku had done well enough to have defeated Freeza, which is a clear-cut indicator of all three being relatively close in power, then later says to a much stronger Goku that Freeza was no match for him. There is no revisionism, retracting or retconning to be found here; one statement is built upon the other and both flow together amicably.

then why wouldn't he have made exactly the same comment about Kaioken? That too would have brought Goku far out of Freeza's league.

Because Coola was compeltely numb to every one of Kaio-ken Goku's attacks, perhaps? He can't sense ki, either.

[Vagrant]

And yet he never once mentions it when Goku is using Kaioken, which would also make Goku "no match" for Freeza. How very odd. His statements are dubious at best.

You also continue to ignore how auto-evolutions don't make a difference anymore. Without that little nugget you have to assume that Goku is just for some strange reason as strong as Freeza in base, and there's no reason to assume that whatsoever.

Ignoring the auto-evolution thing doesn't surprise me though, you strike me as someone who bases everything entirely on the source and ignores the supplementary material. This is fine by me, it just means we're arguing from completely different stances we'll be unable to resolve due to using different material.

[p123]

If anything it's heavily suggested that Coola can suppress his ki AND sense ki. Cooler is able to sneak up on the Z senshi several times, and flat out states that Base Goku's power is impressive as he powers up. Seeing as how Cooler has IT in Movie 6 as well, which ki sensing abilities are needed to do, everything points to Cooler being vastly different than the Freeza Saga villians....


Base Goku getting a 40x zenkai is completely reasonable though. Seeing as how Goku got a 33x zenkai in the Freeza Saga, and the entire point of creating movies is to create a bigger and badder villian, logic would tell us that a 40x zenkai is seriously not all that crazy...



Cooler's Final Form is way beyond 20x SSJ Goku on Namek's power. Final Form Cooler is a ridicolous beast.

[Savage68]

You also continue to ignore how auto-evolutions don't make a difference anymore.

In the eyes of Toei, I have no idea what bearing "auto-evolution's" futility is even meant to have. This is a company that paints Goku as being superior to powers that, in DBZ's "canonical" story, would be impossibly above his reach as often as it can possibly be done. Goku is stronger than Gohan in Movie 8; Goku is stronger than... just about everyone in Movie 9; Goku exhibits more durability than Gohan against Super Buu 2, in the animated series; Goku fights [what's fabricated into being] the strongest Buu as a SSJ2 in the animated series; Goku is stronger than Ultimate Gohan in Movie 13; Goku beats everyone in GT.