End of DBZ/Beginning of GT Base Goku

[CatouttaHell]

We all know Son Goku increased his power massively in the gap between the Boo Arc and the beginning of Dragonball GT. How much of the total increase came from the 10 years of training by himself (and/or possibly sparring with Son Gohan, Vegeta, Mr. Boo, Son Goten, Trunks, etc) and how much of it came from training and sparring with Oob for 5 years after that? Also how high would you peg his base form at the end of DBZ?

I believe the majority of the increase came from the training in the 10 years as Oob was on par with his base form before and after the training and even sparring with him likely didn't do Son Goku anywhere near as much good as training for ten long years non-stop using methods he's learned from the Otherworld and his previous mentors. And the end of DBZ I'd peg his base form above Vegetto's (before somebody screams at me that I'm insane, this question concerns GT and thus the Anime filler as well, and going by certain Anime filler I believe that Chibi Boo and Goku's base form in GT is above even Super Vegetto.)

[Piccolo Daimao]

I don't think Goku increased that much at all from the 10 years training. Can't speak for sparring with Oob for 5 years after that, since I haven't watched GT in full.

But I think Goku had pretty much hit his limits by then. After the Freeza arc, it was pretty much all about improving and perfecting Super Saiyan. And then, after that, just reaching new Super Saiyan transformations. But once Goku hit Super Saiyan 3, I think it did get to a point of "too far" for him. It was an energy guzzler without the benefits of being dead. I think, after that, Goku just got negligible increases.

[Nazi Cola]

I think most of it came from the 5 years with Oob. I don't think he increased too greatly during the 10 years.

[Kaboom]

The problem with Goku supposedly getting massive increases during that time period is that there's more to it than merely the amount of time that passed.

Goku spent those ten years between Boo and the 28th Budokai farting around training on Earth, not visiting anyone, and for the last few years his best training partner was Pan. So no, unless he was doing a LOT of teleporting over to the afterlife to train there (which wouldn't even benefit him that much since he's not dead), then he wasn't going to get much stronger.

Those last 5 years before the start of GT would be a little bit better, since he's now at least got Oob as a constant training partner. But a very large amount of that time would be spent with Oob just trying to catch up to him and not slow him down, like Gohan in the RoSaT before he became a Super Saiyan. So even then it wouldn't become valuable until a certain point.

Buuut... the powers-that-be behind GT decided he would be super-duper-puper strong anyway, and now he's suddenly tango-ing with full-power Oob in his base form and matching people supposedly much stronger than any form of Boo in his Super Saiyan forms. Well... I guess that's that. It's the way it is, but it's still baloney.

[Chibi Mystic Gohan]

Kaboom, you use the phrase "farting around on Earth," as if gravity or whatever is the only way to make progress. Yet Vegeta didn't totally blow Goku out of the water by training in 300g; he certainly wasn't 300 times stronger than Goku. Everybody did better in 10g (Room of Spirit and Time), later in that arc. Location isn't the only factor.

[CatouttaHell]

I don't think Goku increased that much at all from the 10 years training. Can't speak for sparring with Oob for 5 years after that, since I haven't watched GT in full.

But I think Goku had pretty much hit his limits by then. After the Freeza arc, it was pretty much all about improving and perfecting Super Saiyan. And then, after that, just reaching new Super Saiyan transformations. But once Goku hit Super Saiyan 3, I think it did get to a point of "too far" for him. It was an energy guzzler without the benefits of being dead. I think, after that, Goku just got negligible increases.

In the first episode of GT his training with Oob is done and he is shown finally having the fight he wanted with Oob, a fight where Goku runs even with Oob in his base form.

[Kaboom]

Location isn't the only factor.

Yeah, but neither is gravity. The Room of Spirit and Time also has intense variations in temperature in addition to its fluctuating gravity. It's a combination of time, gravity, and environment. Super-high-gravity training is effective by pretty much torturing your body into getting strong enough to handle it. Training in the afterlife, where time has no meaning and you're already dead, has its own advantages. Having a good training partner in any of the above situations will speed things up too.

But all things considered, training in the normal environment on Earth is cushy and cozy compared to just about anything and anywhere else we've seen in the series.

[Piccolo Daimao]

I don't think Goku increased that much at all from the 10 years training. Can't speak for sparring with Oob for 5 years after that, since I haven't watched GT in full.

But I think Goku had pretty much hit his limits by then. After the Freeza arc, it was pretty much all about improving and perfecting Super Saiyan. And then, after that, just reaching new Super Saiyan transformations. But once Goku hit Super Saiyan 3, I think it did get to a point of "too far" for him. It was an energy guzzler without the benefits of being dead. I think, after that, Goku just got negligible increases.

In the first episode of GT his training with Oob is done and he is shown finally having the fight he wanted with Oob, a fight where Goku runs even with Oob in his base form.

That's why I said I can't speak for sparring with Oob for 5 years after that, since I haven't watched GT in full. At the end of Z, I don't think Goku made any notable increase in power from 10 years prior.

[TheGreatness25]

It would be extremely uncharacteristic for Goku tobaemit that he hit his limit or to stop training. That's what he lived for, that's what he died for, he spent his entire life.l doing it and... he spemt his entire death doint it. I'd find it extremely hard to believe that he would ever stop.

[Chibi Mystic Gohan]

Yeah, but neither is gravity. The Room of Spirit and Time also has intense variations in temperature in addition to its fluctuating gravity. It's a combination of time, gravity, and environment. Super-high-gravity training is effective by pretty much torturing your body into getting strong enough to handle it. Training in the afterlife, where time has no meaning and you're already dead, has its own advantages. Having a good training partner in any of the above situations will speed things up too.

Honestly, I never got the impression that the Room of Spirit and Time was that impressive. It's basically just a combination of the gravity on Kaio's planet and the low oxygen on Kami's palace. Vegeta's gravity training seemed more hellish than that. You didn't exactly see Goku or Gohan sweating bullets in there. Seems like, to me, the most important advantage was time. You could do a lot of training in only one Earth day. (Indeed, one of Kaio's points about his planet was that Goku would get thousands of years' worth of training in only 158 days.)

Of course, Goku managed to do a whole lot in only six days on his way to Namek, so I'm not going to argue that time is the only factor, just a really important one. But that was easily the most insane, quick-fix training regimen we've ever seen; it ain't the norm. (Also, Goku was abusing his healing boost...)

But all things considered, training in the normal environment on Earth is cushy and cozy compared to just about anything and anywhere else we've seen in the series.

I don't think there's nearly enough data to support that claim. Aside from the android arc example of Goku training at home versus Vegeta training in 300g, are there other comparisons we can make? After the Cell arc, it seems that Goku and Vegeta were the only ones who continued training, and Goku was dead, so he couldn't train on Earth. Had he trained on Earth, however, it seems likely that Goku would've still been stronger than Vegeta after seven years had passed (i.e. during the Boo arc), despite Vegeta's training in high-gravity. Doesn't Vegeta attribute Goku's amazing progress to his natural talent, and not simply the special conditions of the afterlife?

[Piccolo Daimao]

It would be extremely uncharacteristic for Goku tobaemit that he hit his limit or to stop training. That's what he lived for, that's what he died for, he spent his entire life.l doing it and... he spemt his entire death doint it. I'd find it extremely hard to believe that he would ever stop.

Goku wouldn't stop training. He's a Saiyan. All they care for is training and battle. But after all the training and transformations Goku's been through, what much more is there to gain?

[TheGreatness25]

I don't believe that battle power is domething that has a limit. If it did, I doubt Kuririn would ever reach the power he did. So Goku could have been raising his battle power the whole time. I don't think he believed he had a limit because he said that if (fat) Boo ever went renegade, he'd be training and would fight him again (just read that yesterday). So that implies that he intended to get even stronger.

[CatouttaHell]

Goku wouldn't stop training. He's a Saiyan. All they care for is training and battle. But after all the training and transformations Goku's been through, what much more is there to gain?

Why would he stop getting stronger just because he's transformed a lot already? Piccolo kept getting stronger and he didn't have one transformation. Also he attained two more transformations in GT (Golden Great Ape and SSjin 4) if that matters at all. To each their own but I don't really believe that Goku had any limitations to be honest. I think he could achieve any level of strength at all eventually. The series is all about surpassing one's limitations and getting stronger and stronger with no end in sight.

[Brohan]

I like the points Chibi made, they make a lot of sense.

On Topic though, GT Base Goku would have to be at least 10 times stronger than Z Goku to overwhelm Majin Buu at SSJ just look at these figures:

Z Goku Base: 1
Z Goku SSJ3: 400

GT Goku Base: 10
GT Goku SSJ: 500

Although this is just how it is, it's heavily impled Goku is at his maz near the end of Z

[Piccolo Daimao]

Goku wouldn't stop training. He's a Saiyan. All they care for is training and battle. But after all the training and transformations Goku's been through, what much more is there to gain?

Why would he stop getting stronger just because he's transformed a lot already? Piccolo kept getting stronger and he didn't have one transformation. Also he attained two more transformations in GT (Golden Great Ape and SSjin 4) if that matters at all. To each their own but I don't really believe that Goku had any limitations to be honest. I think he could achieve any level of strength at all eventually. The series is all about surpassing one's limitations and getting stronger and stronger with no end in sight.

I didn't say he'd flat-out stop getting stronger. Just that he would gain negligible increases. Unless he finds some new method of training that he hasn't already gone through or a new transformation, then I don't see him making a huge leap in power.

[dbgtFO]

I don't think Goku increased that much at all from the 10 years training. Can't speak for sparring with Oob for 5 years after that, since I haven't watched GT in full.

But I think Goku had pretty much hit his limits by then. After the Freeza arc, it was pretty much all about improving and perfecting Super Saiyan. And then, after that, just reaching new Super Saiyan transformations. But once Goku hit Super Saiyan 3, I think it did get to a point of "too far" for him. It was an energy guzzler without the benefits of being dead. I think, after that, Goku just got negligible increases.

In the first episode of GT his training with Oob is done and he is shown finally having the fight he wanted with Oob, a fight where Goku runs even with Oob in his base form.

Oh, so base Goku at the beginning of GT is equal to Pure Buu?
That's quite the increase in power

Going by manga, I don't know how much power he could have unlocked by training solely by himself, but Toriyama does state, that Goku is the always strongest guy in the universe, so maybe EoS SSJ 3 Goku is stronger than Gohan at this point...