Kaioken Kamehameha ???

[p123]

What's the deal with it? It doesn't seem to do it's job, when it should. I think I found an explantion... In my other post, I went on how ki amplification is an addition, that has a max ability to top out at a certain multiplication... We know Kaioken was abandoned, and it's quite possible that KKx20 is stronger than the SSJ boost at least in the Buu Saga. I think my theory helps ease both scenarios of why Vegeta/Freeza didn't die, and why Kaioken is never seen or heard of again...


I think there is something going on with the Kaioken Kamehameha. Here is what I think...


Goku 8,000
~ Kamehameha 17,760


Goku 8,000
~ Kaioken 16,000
~ KK Kamehameha 33,760



As you can see, with Kaioken , Goku's amplification rate is nowhere near as strong as it was for Base Goku... I believe that Goku's Kaioken does not allow for it to be amplified off of his Kaioken power, and Kamehameha can only be amplified over pure forms of a Saiyan, as in Base/SSJ etc... So it would be one of the major drawbacks of Kaioken, and a huge reason not to use it anymore, not to mention it tops at 10x being an effective fighting form, and 20x totally exhausts you...


Let's see how this effects the Freeza scenario....



Goku 3,000,000
~ KKx20 60,000,000
~ KKx20 Kamehameha 66,600,000
~ SSJ 150,000,000


Freeza 50% 72,500,000
~100% 145,000,000


The KKx20 Kamehameha vs 50% Freeza scenario has always been odd. First off, to take care of the obvious, 145/150? I thought it was 120/150? Well, I don't think the Daiz was able to understand what rivaling range is apparent by Saibamen 1200/Raditz 1500. So I think the Daiz was off a bit, and have adjusted that up a bit... I believe that 145/150 is much more likely, since Freeza fights pretty much on par with Goku, and there were no signs of Goku just dominating him... We can go on about that in a different thread though...


Ok... So as you can see, this seems to make sense of the scenario... Kuririn also comments that Goku's Kamehameha SHOULD'VE been outrageous. Which implies that it wasn't.. Which could just be talking about Freeza's apparent strength, but I think there's room to tie that into this...

Ok, so I have


Saibamen 1,200
Raditz 1,250

Saibamen are 96% of Raditz, IMO a true rivaling range like the manga indicates...


Goku's Kamehameha was 924 as we all know, and that would have been 74% of Raditz power based on my numbers. As we can see, Raditz is able to block it with one hand, and receive no damage...



Now let's check out Nappa...


Gohan's Masenko 2,800
Nappa 3,000
~ True Power 8,000



I have Nappa at like 97% of Goku or something like that. A true rivaling range that is displayed by him and Goku's draw. Not a big issue, but just to let you know where I am getting my numbers from... Nappa cannot power up, but as we can see, Raditz/Nappa/Vegeta are all stated to have changed their power. Yet they are stated to be unable to alter their battle power. So we call this surfacing your ki. Nappa uses more effort and more power throughout the fight with the Z Senshi, yet he never actually powers up, as in his scouter reading would always be the same...



So I think Nappa was fighting the Z Senshi at around 3,000. Give or take a couple of hundred I would guess. Vegeta obviously thinks of 2,800 as a threat to Nappa, yet also thinks that Nappa has a chance to win against a power over 8,000. Kind of contradictory quotes from Vegeta since he apparently cannot sense ki at this point, but I guess we should assume Vegeta has a good eye for how Nappa is fighting, and if he is going all out or not, just based on how well he knows Nappa. Or something.. Lol...



Ok, so check this out...


2,800 is 93% of 3,000...


I think Nappa who is obviously threatened by this, would be hurt really bad if he just took the blast head on, and I think Nappa would have burnt his hand or even worse, if he just simply put his hand out to block it.. As we can see , Nappa goes all out, and punches the blast away... IMO, a superior form of tanking would be simply putting your hand out. Nappa uses a lot of effort to punch back the blast, and his hand is swollen from it anyhow...


So, I think Freeza would have been ok , or wouldn't have had a burnt hand if he punched away Goku's blast, but instead foolishly tried to handle it by simply blocking it...


So...



Goku's Kamehameha is 74% of Raditz. He can block with one hand , with no damage...

Gohan's Masenko is 93% of Nappa, he can punch it, but he can't block it with one hand too strong...Nappa's hand is swollen for his efforts..

Goku's KKx20 Kamehameha is 91% of Freeza, who shows what would happen if Nappa just had put his hand up. Freeza is not killed, but his hand is burnt..






I know a lot of this segment has strayed away from some of the logic from the Daiz, but hopefully you guys can keep an open mind, and take this seriously... I have put a lot of thought and effort into this, and hopefully I will get thoughtful responses back. Thanks I know the read was long, but I would really like to hear other's opinions on this.. Thanks for your time..

[Kaboom]

I've had a super-simple and so-ridiculously-obvious-that-it's-funny theoretical explanation for this for a while now.

Charging and releasing a Kamehameha registers on a Scouter as an increasing power level because it is focusing and amplifying one's Ki beyond its normal level. But now the Kaio-Ken is already doing that, and thus the added effect of the Kamehameha is not cumulative on top of it.

So, when Goku at 8000-ish uses a Kamehameha on its own, it might amplify his Ki to, say, 10,000 or so, to be totally arbitrary. But if he uses a Kaio-Ken x3 and then fires a Kamehameha, the Kaio-Ken is the only thing increasing his power level. The Kamehameha is merely projecting that power of 24,000 or so into a beam.

[p123]

Yes, I have been using something like that for a while now... Kaioken effecting the amplification because the user is already amplified...

I would think, that my theory does include that theory don't you think? It just holds true to the 2.22x boost, and logically a Kaioken Kamehameha is going to be at least a little superior to just the Kaioken or it would be pretty useless don't you think?

I know you don't agree with holding onto the 2.22x stuff, but hey, if it can work, and have some basis behind it, why not right?

[Fox666]

The Weekly Jump states Goku battle power against Piccolo Jr. as 910

So you might take "416" as Goku supressed power (similar to when Nappa pick "1,220" for Nappa), while "924" is Goku unleashing his maximum power

I think the Daizenshuu sort of back-ups this idea, since it classify the Kamehameha as a "Basic-type", while the Makankousappou is a "Concentration-type"
http://www.kanzentai.com/trans-daiz04.p ... id=attacks

[VegettoEX]

"it's" means "it is" or "it has".

"its" is possessive.

That's my only contribution to this thread right now, but I feel it's an important one to make.

[hleV]

Maybe Goku and Piccolo couldn't manage their power to its fullest at the time of Raditz's arrival, and could only attain more of their true power through charged energy attacks.

[Kaboom]

Maybe Goku and Piccolo couldn't manage their power to its fullest at the time of Raditz's arrival, and could only attain more of their true power through charged energy attacks.

I'm starting to subscribe to that idea, myself. Goku's true full power could be that 900-something, but the way he's learned to control and use his Ki ("crouch quiet as the sky, strike quicker than lightning") is the total opposite from that of space-thugs like Raditz. So while Raditz and others like him have more or less all of their power displayed right up front, Goku and Piccolo work more like having their Ki at a low resting level, then increasing up to its true maximum when they attack.

It's a little bit complicated, but it seems plausible. Plus, it helps Goku at the start of Z stack up just a little bit better against Raditz and the "low-class average" Saiyan level.

[p123]

So taking off the weights allows you to triple your power?

I thought Raditz stated that Gohan surpassed his father?

[dbgtFO]

I thought Raditz stated that Gohan surpassed his father?

924 < 1307 p, you know that

[p123]

Lol... I thought he said it about Gohan's 710... But then again, the timing around what I'm trying to say wouldn't work anyhow...


So taking off weights = what nearly a 3x boost for Goku? Sheesh, that's high...I know a lot of you guys go by that logic, but I don't know, just can't get with it. Seems a bit crazy, for such an uncrazy scenario...

[hleV]

So taking off weights = what nearly a 3x boost for Goku? Sheesh, that's high...I know a lot of you guys go by that logic, but I don't know, just can't get with it. Seems a bit crazy, for such an uncrazy scenario...

Goku didn't charge a Kamehameha with his weighted clothing on, so you can't know how strong he truly was with it. It just was plain obvious to him that he wouldn't have been be able to do any good without taking weights off against Raditz.

[p123]

So charging a Kamehameha allows one to fight at a completely different level than before?

Goku W/Weights = 334

W/o = 416

Out of nowhere = 900???


How does that make sense. Raditz is in amazement at what Goku/Piccolo are doing. It's implied to be highly amplified attacks IMO. What else would Raditz be amazed at?

I'm sure Raditz could amplify similar to a 900-924 range. I mean, that minimal stuff there, and a ki blast is generally going to be a bit stronger.

I think Raditz is capable of that type of gap, but a huge gap , such as 2.22x, or 3x is just something he is not aware of, and it amazes him...

[Kaboom]

It's not a matter of a magic boost out of nowhere or simply taking off weights. It's more a matter of "resting" vs "attacking." Goku has learned to keep himself relaxed and "make his heart still," which results in his Ki being reined in. When he attacks, that latent Ki is brought to the surface and is much stronger than he appeared before. I don't know how to make that explanation any simpler.

This was a big element of how everyone, Goku especially, fought during the Piccolo era of the story. It's the type of method he learned from Popo. But once the power levels started climbing to ridiculously high levels, it became less prominent. It was a very rare method of using one's Ki, and Freeza's thugs were all surprised when the Namekians and Earthlings displayed such an ability.

[p123]

So what is Raditz making all of that hoopla about? He sure makes it sound like he's talking about highly amplified attacks...

[Senzu_Bean]

Goku can manipulate his battle power much better/more through the Kaioken than he can with the Kamehameha. There is nothing to be explained in here.

And I seriously don't have a clue what p123 is talking about in his first post.

[p123]

You don't do power levels. You would need some experience I would guess. Next time I will try to keep the non power level people in the loop...

[lash]

There is no set formula for Kamehameha. It varies. It supposedly gets stronger the stronger the individual is.

It's simple:

Goku: 416
Kamehameha: 924 (+508)

Goku KKx3: 24,000
Kamehameha: 25,000(+1,000)

Goku KKx20: 60,000,000
Kamehameha: 61,000,000 (+1,000,000)
Freeza 50%: 72,000,000/ 60,000,000...doesn't really matter. It certainly had to potential to kill Freeza but it still just couldn't quite.

Easy.
Nothing says it has to be a multiplication increase.

[Senzu_Bean]

You don't do power levels. You would need some experience I would guess. Next time I will try to keep the non power level people in the loop...

One word: ridiculous! When have been Dragonball entirely related with battle powers and all these ridiculous fan-made theories are now fact?

There is no set formula for Kamehameha. It varies. It supposedly gets stronger the stronger the individual is.

That can't be true! Otherwise I can't create completely fan-made battle powers lists which are the only way to understand Dragonball at 100%.

[Dabooyaka]

I dont see how the kk would affect the kamehameha amplification, but if thats how you feel. sweet

[Senzu_Bean]

There is no amplification. Goku can use x ki performing the Kamehameha and y ki performing the Kaioken.

Using both at the same time won't amplify, multiply or add anything. Kaioken is higher thus it is its power that prevail.