Near Death Power- Up

Senzu_Bean · Post by **Senzu_Bean** » Mon Mar 07, 2011 5:36 pm

Why do people say these no longer are present after Freeza was defeated even though Cell got one and Broly (non-canon though) also got one too? I gave a read through Daizenshuu 2 - All Battles list on Kanzentai and none fight after (or before) the whole Namek journey put a Saiyan at the brink of death.

Piccolo Daimao · Post by **Piccolo Daimao** » Mon Mar 07, 2011 5:40 pm

I suppose because they aren't as relevant and noticeable as before. Even Cell's near-death power-up is the only one past the Freeza arc that's even remotely relevant to the story anymore, and even then, it's plot-contrived. Doesn't Daizenshuu 7 note in the Battle Power section that the power-ups Saiyans get after recovering from the brink of death become insufficient?

But there's also another fan theory that (fuck it, I'm gonna say it) Zenkais are about the Saiyan's potential, and once they've reached Super Saiyan, they've hit their limit of potential, so Zenkais were like filling up that gap...or something like that. I'm gonna let someone who knows more about it explain it a bit better.

But talking of which, Zenkais basically just seem to be a plot device for Saiyans to get stronger in the Freeza arc, with no hint or reference of them happening before (apart from Kuririn's retarded "Oh yeah, Goku got those too, even though I never bothered to mention it and I wasn't there the two potential times he may've gotten them*, the latter of which I was fucking dead!")

*Btw, the two potential Zenkais I'm talking about are getting hit by Taopaipai's Dodonpa and his heart stopping after Piccolo Daimao's Makousen, both of which, if they did in fact grant Goku Zenkais, were overshadowed by further-powers (The Super Holy Water training and the Super God Water).

dbgtFO · Post by **dbgtFO** » Mon Mar 07, 2011 5:40 pm

Senzu_Bean wrote:Why do people say these no longer are present after Freeza was defeated even though Cell got one and Broly (non-canon though) also got one too? I gave a read through Daizenshuu 2 - All Battles list on Kanzentai and none fight after (or before) the whole Namek journey put a Saiyan at the brink of death.

#17 & #18 stated Vegeta & Co. would die, if Krillin didn't give them some Senzus IIRC.

Piccolo Daimao · Post by **Piccolo Daimao** » Mon Mar 07, 2011 5:45 pm

dbgtFO wrote:
Senzu_Bean wrote:Why do people say these no longer are present after Freeza was defeated even though Cell got one and Broly (non-canon though) also got one too? I gave a read through Daizenshuu 2 - All Battles list on Kanzentai and none fight after (or before) the whole Namek journey put a Saiyan at the brink of death.
#17 & #18 stated Vegeta & Co. would die, if Krillin didn't give them some Senzus IIRC.

What has that got to do with whether or not Zenkais were present post-Freeza arc?

Senzu_Bean · Post by **Senzu_Bean** » Mon Mar 07, 2011 5:46 pm

Piccolo Daimao wrote:Doesn't Daizenshuu 7 note in the Battle Power section that the power-ups Saiyans get after recovering from the brink of death become insufficient?

Not exactly:

Kanzentai wrote:The way the note about near-death power-ups becoming "small" is phrased in Japanese (sukunakunatta), it could either mean that they became small, infrequent, or simply insufficient.

dbgtFO wrote:#17 & #18 stated Vegeta & Co. would die, if Krillin didn't give them some Senzus IIRC.

Didn't Vegeta only had a broken arm?

dbgtFO · Post by **dbgtFO** » Mon Mar 07, 2011 5:48 pm

Piccolo Daimao wrote:
dbgtFO wrote:
Senzu_Bean wrote:Why do people say these no longer are present after Freeza was defeated even though Cell got one and Broly (non-canon though) also got one too? I gave a read through Daizenshuu 2 - All Battles list on Kanzentai and none fight after (or before) the whole Namek journey put a Saiyan at the brink of death.
#17 & #18 stated Vegeta & Co. would die, if Krillin didn't give them some Senzus IIRC.
What has that got to do with whether or not Zenkais were present post-Freeza arc?

... Original Post:

Senzu_Bean wrote:Why do people say these no longer are present after Freeza was defeated even though Cell got one and Broly (non-canon though) also got one too? I gave a read through Daizenshuu 2 - All Battles list on Kanzentai and none fight after (or before) the whole Namek journey put a Saiyan at the brink of death.

Senzu_Bean wrote:
dbgtFO wrote:#17 & #18 stated Vegeta & Co. would die, if Krillin didn't give them some Senzus IIRC.
Didn't Vegeta only had a broken arm?

Yeah, but I'm pretty sure it was stated they would die, if they didn't get senzus.

Senzu_Bean · Post by **Senzu_Bean** » Mon Mar 07, 2011 5:49 pm

dbgtFO wrote:Yeah, but I'm pretty sure it was stated they would die, if they didn't get senzus.

Maybe #17 was being generalist. Piccolo and Tenshinhan might have died but nobody dies with a broken arm, much less a freaking Super Saiyan. Still this isn't even near those on Namek or the beaten Vegeta got on Earth, which is basically my point.

Piccolo Daimao · Post by **Piccolo Daimao** » Mon Mar 07, 2011 5:51 pm

@dbgtFO: OK, I get you. I'm sure there were battles after the Freeza arc (apart from that example) that put Saiyans at the brink of death. How about Vegeta getting knocked out by Cell, for one?

Senzu_Bean wrote:
dbgtFO wrote:Yeah, but I'm pretty sure it was stated they would die, if they didn't get senzus.
Maybe #17 was being generalist. Piccolo and Tenshinhan might have died but nobody dies with a broken arm, much less a freaking Super Saiyan.

Is it hard to assume that they all could've died after that? And #17 and #18 are super-powerful Androids. Perhaps #18's kick to Vegeta's arm could've been so damaging to his body that he would've eventually died.

Senzu_Bean · Post by **Senzu_Bean** » Mon Mar 07, 2011 5:53 pm

Piccolo Daimao wrote:How about Vegeta getting knocked out by Cell, for one?

Nobody was worried about Vegeta dieing. Neither Trunks or Krillin.

Piccolo Daimao · Post by **Piccolo Daimao** » Mon Mar 07, 2011 5:56 pm

Senzu_Bean wrote:
Piccolo Daimao wrote:How about Vegeta getting knocked out by Cell, for one?
Nobody was worried about Vegeta dieing. Neither Trunks or Krillin.

Weren't they? I thought Kuririn was saying beforehand that if Trunks didn't step in, Vegeta would or may die. And Trunks was anxious about getting Cell away from Vegeta so Kuririn could quickly fly away and give him a Senzu. Although I guess that doesn't necessarily mean that Vegeta would die if he didn't get a Senzu. Does anyone have what was said in the original version in regards to this?

Well, whatever.

dbgtFO · Post by **dbgtFO** » Mon Mar 07, 2011 5:59 pm

Piccolo Daimao wrote:
Senzu_Bean wrote:
Piccolo Daimao wrote:How about Vegeta getting knocked out by Cell, for one?
Nobody was worried about Vegeta dieing. Neither Trunks or Krillin.
Weren't they? I thought Kuririn was saying beforehand that if Trunks didn't step in, Vegeta would or may die. And Trunks was anxious about getting Cell away from Vegeta so Kuririn could quickly fly away and give him a Senzu. Although I guess that doesn't necessarily mean that Vegeta would die if he didn't get a Senzu. Does anyone have what was said in the original version in regards to this?

Well, whatever.

From Kanzentai's Manga guide: http://www.kanzentai.com/chp.php?id=385

Krillin thinks he must be unconscious, or maybe dead... Cell laughs about how Vegeta is stubbornly still alive. Krillin tells Trunks now he has to do it, but Trunks says he knows, and he's already powering up. Trunks starts bulking up a lot, and Krillin freaks out at his power.

Piccolo Daimao · Post by **Piccolo Daimao** » Mon Mar 07, 2011 6:02 pm

dbgtFO wrote:From Kanzentai's Manga guide: http://www.kanzentai.com/chp.php?id=385
Krillin thinks he must be unconscious, or maybe dead... Cell laughs about how Vegeta is stubbornly still alive. Krillin tells Trunks now he has to do it, but Trunks says he knows, and he's already powering up. Trunks starts bulking up a lot, and Krillin freaks out at his power.

So I guess it's either way then. He's unconscious, but Kuririn thinks he may be dead. Still, that isn't enough confirmation to say he's on the brink of death. But I think at least that'd count, since Goku gets beaten up by Vegeta on Namek, isn't even unconscious and gets a big-ass Zenkai.

Senzu_Bean · Post by **Senzu_Bean** » Mon Mar 07, 2011 6:04 pm

Well, Goku couldn't walk and probably had pretty much if not all bones of his body broken and maybe even internal injuries.

Vegeta was unconscious and since this isn't real life being unconscious doesn't kill.

BlueSky · Post by **Kaboom** » Mon Mar 07, 2011 6:06 pm

What's important is that despite getting the crap beaten out of them left and right, the Saiyan characters were never shown to get one again, at least not any worth mentioning. But since Cell got one, it's not as if Toriyama simply forgot about them. Something changed, and the Daizenshuu quote (from #7, is it?) that, telling us that one way or another, they became meaningless after Super Saiyan. Though it leaves it somewhat vague as to exactly how.

Senzu_Bean · Post by **Senzu_Bean** » Mon Mar 07, 2011 6:08 pm

Kaboom wrote:Though it leaves it somewhat vague as to exactly how.

Cause they never got close to the brink of death. That was my whole point with this thread. They either got unconscious or got a broken limb.

Piccolo Daimao · Post by **Piccolo Daimao** » Mon Mar 07, 2011 6:10 pm

Kaboom wrote:What's important is that despite getting the crap beaten out of them left and right, the Saiyan characters were never shown to get one again, at least not any worth mentioning. But since Cell got one, it's not as if Toriyama simply forgot about them. Something changed, and the Daizenshuu quote (from #7, is it?) that, telling us that one way or another, they became meaningless after Super Saiyan. Though it leaves it somewhat vague as to exactly how.

All it was in the Freeza arc was basically a plot device to boost the Saiyans up to actually doing something of worth against Freeza. That's why there's no hint of it before or after (aside from Cell) in the story. And look at the theory in my post that I've heard others talk about.

And @Senzu_Bean: Unconsciousness can kill.

dbgtFO · Post by **dbgtFO** » Mon Mar 07, 2011 6:15 pm

How damaged was Vegeta after his fight against Recoom?
He wasn't even near death was he?

Yet he still received an abnormal increase noted by himself, whereas against #18 it wasn't noteworthy.
Daizenshuu 7 confirms that the NDPUs were shitty or infrequent after the Freeza Arc(which is very convenient), so that also explains why Gohan didn't get stronger, when he faced Buu(Gotenks absorbed).

Piccolo Daimao · Post by **Piccolo Daimao** » Mon Mar 07, 2011 6:19 pm

dbgtFO wrote:How damaged was Vegeta after his fight against Recoom?
He wasn't even near death was he?

Yet he still received an abnormal increase noted by himself, whereas against #18 it wasn't noteworthy.
Daizenshuu 7 confirms that the NDPUs were shitty or infrequent after the Freeza Arc(which is very convenient), so that also explains why Gohan didn't get stronger, when he faced Buu(Gotenks absorbed).

Vegeta just looked beat-up and was holding his arm.

And we don't know if Gohan was at the brink of death after being beaten up by Gotenks Boo. And even if he was, he'd had all his potential drawn out by the Elder Kaioshin, so it's possible that he couldn't glean any more potential out of his body and/or couldn't get stronger from Zenkais anymore.

Senzu_Bean · Post by **Senzu_Bean** » Mon Mar 07, 2011 6:19 pm

Piccolo Daimao wrote:Unconsciousness can kill.

Not in a fictional work. Otherwise Goku would have died after Vegeta knocked him out after their rematch.

Piccolo Daimao · Post by **Piccolo Daimao** » Mon Mar 07, 2011 6:21 pm

Senzu_Bean wrote:
Piccolo Daimao wrote:Unconsciousness can kill.
Not in a fictional work. Otherwise Goku would have died after Vegeta knocked him out after their rematch.

Um...what? What do you mean, "not in a fictional work"? Of course unconsciousness can still kill.

Oh yeah, and Goku's an extremely powerful Super Saiyan when he gets knocked out by Vegeta, who's equal to him, after their rematch.

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