Some perspective on Kikuchi's music

[cRookie_Monster]

So he was born in 1931. Which means in 1951 he was 20. What was he influenced by the most? The stuff you hear in your youth has the most lasting impression and you tend to not go beyond that. So hmm, teens would be 1944-1951. Pretty important time as well. Jazz and swing were totally king in that time period.

Yes my time was 1980's/1990's so I'm stuck in synth pop/metal/John Williams mode.

So first his darker stuff, from this album:
Themes from Classic Science Fiction (Fantasy and Horror) (Amazon)
Clips:
EDIT: the old links are gone. I found some on youtube though:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j2Ie8UQvzM8
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KKw_2qcl55g
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ixSj_fw9VVE
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aPkGOJYFH5Y (Henry Mancini - The Creature That Walks Among Us)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DQschDYmYbw (Mancini - Terror Strikes)

Some of it Henry Mancini, one of the masters of film music back then.

If you like Kikuchi's style and you haven't listened to much Mancini, you're probably missing out. Not just for the dark stuff, I have a hunch he was imitating some of the more romantic and jazzy compositions Mancini composed as well, even though they were only about 6 years apart in age.

Wow this Elmer Bernstein one really reminds me of Kikuchi:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QoYT_CjhA7U
(Bernstein seemed like a guy likely to have been an influence so was looking up his movies...I know the movie is cheesy...but it's the 50s XD)

Again, I think Kikuchi was a big jazz fan:
Macnini's Pink Panther
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jBupII3LH_Q

and this lol, though it's from 1975.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=34kPQ03UPIw

hm, just found this from Kikuchi (1971), not a direct rip off, not by any stretch, but the style is similar to Mancini's..which really dates from the 50s with Peter Gunn.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DQyuZ_cRpow

For Kikuchi's sadder stuff I think he went for more of a simplified version of Baroque choral music (Bach, Vivaldi, Handel)
Bach
Vivaldi
I based this partially off a theme I redid for a friend of mine called "Lament" or as VegettoEX described it on his music page:

a piece of music from the original Japanese score to DBZ Movie 1 on our forum. This piece of music had never been released on CD in Japan

My version of Lament

Ohhhh and I was wondering about Kikichi's obsession with the vibraslap. Well here's a quote from the wiki page on it:

The vibraslap was a ubiquitous part of jazz or pop-based film scores, primarily action films and television series, in the 1970s and early 1980s.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vibraslap
Ok that makes sense now. Kikuchi was definitely in that camp, writing music for action shows at that time when jazz arrangers were doing most of the work for TV.

Same thing goes for this kooky sound, kinda:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flexatone

It is occasionally used in the soundtracks of films or cartoons to represent "ghosts" or other paranormal phenomena.

Some proof he was trying to make the music friendly for kids. There's definitely flexatone in some of those scarier DBZ scenes.

Anyway, I like understanding composers' point of view on why they do what they do. And I know that almost *noone* is original. If it seems they are, you probably just don't know where they are drawing it from. So if you like Kikuchi, check out 50s film music(Mancini especially) and Baroque composers (Bach especially)

Ok, I just have to link this movie for giggles
The Giant Claw
had me friggin rolling with laughter ^^
I read the starring actor left the theatre early cause the audience kept laughing every time the monster was shown.

[Cipher]

This provides some pretty interesting context. Good thread.

But yeah, I totally understand it when people call the Kikuchi score "dated." It clearly channels '50s-'70s film scores, kung-fu flicks, etc. I think that's exactly why it works. Ever since I began appreciating Dragon Ball as the kung-fu/sci-fi pastiche it is, I've really dug Kikuchi's take.

That's also why I can't go for, say, Yamamoto's Kai score, which treats the series as straightforward action. It loses the parody/homage element. (Or, with recent allegations, maybe it took the homage element a little too far.)

[Lord Exor]

Ah, Henry Mancini. I would think nearly everyone has heard at least one of his compositions. Pink Panther theme anyone? Excellent deconstruction, Scott.

[penguintruth]

This provides some pretty interesting context. Good thread.

But yeah, I totally understand it when people call the Kikuchi score "dated." It clearly channels '50s-'70s film scores, kung-fu flicks, etc. I think that's exactly why it works. Ever since I began appreciating Dragon Ball as the kung-fu/sci-fi pastiche it is, I've really dug Kikuchi's take.

That's also why I can't go for, say, Yamamoto's Kai score, which treats the series as straightforward action. It loses the parody/homage element. (Or, with recent allegations, maybe it took the homage element a little too far.)

Exactly. Kikuchi channels martial arts film music, but he channels it through a bigger, grander orchestral sound that paints a better emotional picture, which helps to really enliven the atmosphere of a scene in the show, rather than the superficial aspects that Faulconer et al play on.

The problem is that Yamamoto plays it too safely and some of his stuff comes off as a little too generic as a result.

[cRookie_Monster]

Exactly. Kikuchi channels martial arts film music, but he channels it through a bigger, grander orchestral sound that paints a better emotional picture, which helps to really enliven the atmosphere of a scene in the show, rather than the superficial aspects that Faulconer et al play on.

The problem is that Yamamoto plays it too safely and some of his stuff comes off as a little too generic as a result.

Yeah cause "twaaaannnggggg" and "Dun Dun DUuuuuunnnnn!!!" aren't cliched sounds at all. Neither sliding flexatones and musical saw type sounds. Come on man, if that isn't superficial, make the kids happy kinda stuff I don't know what is. Kikuchi is just going off an older cliche that isn't the norm anymore so it sounds "fresh" and "vibrant" to you. If you go back to the 50's its just more of the same stuff everyone else was doing. Nothing special or original about it anymore than me copying John William's or Hans Zimmer's epic sound like everyone does today. What makes something cheesy is when you hear it alllll the time. The first time someone does something it's actually quite cool...until everyone and their grandmother copies it. This why styles cycle, trends come, get overused, wear out, people forget them, then they get rediscovered and OMG WOW SO NEAT. Over and over again. Frankly I don't think either version of the score is that much better than the other. They both have good sides and bad. If I wrote a score from scratch for the show it would probably be some hybrid between the two.

I wish people would stop being so one sided....I'm certainly not afraid to bash the Faulconer Productions score or praise the Japanese score in spite of what people might think.

[penguintruth]

Just because you were part of replacing Kikuchi's excellent atmospheric score with terrible, generic synth-rock trash, doesn't mean you need to get all defensive and jealous.

Kikuchi's score hits in all the right places. Kiddy-like and quaint when it needs to be, adventurous and uplifting when it needs to be, and grand and operatic when it needs to be. It appeals to atmosphere and emotion, rather than just action in an attempt to pump up how "badass" and "hardcore" the characters are.

Anyone who understands what the show is would understand why Kikuchi's music works the best.

[Cipher]

Exactly. Kikuchi channels martial arts film music, but he channels it through a bigger, grander orchestral sound that paints a better emotional picture, which helps to really enliven the atmosphere of a scene in the show, rather than the superficial aspects that Faulconer et al play on.

There's a reason I didn't mention it in my post. It's neither here nor there. I could criticize the Faulconer Productions score for a lot of things, but being generic or superficial isn't among them. It creates it's own distinct atmosphere, which is sometimes very interesting and catchy. And while I don't find it particularly befitting of Dragon Ball now adays, that's a lot more than I can say for Yamamoto or some of the other American composers to touch the series.

But that's seriously neither here nor there in this thread. At all. Because, you know, that's not what it's about.

And yeah, as cRookie_Monster said, both Yamamoto and Kikuchi do fall into a lot of scoring cliches. Kikuchi just chooses appropriate cliches for the series.

Just because you were part of replacing Kikuchi's excellent atmospheric score with terrible synth-rock trash, doesn't mean you need to get all defensive and jealous.

Dude. What the fuck?

[penguintruth]

Yamamoto at least understands that DBZ is essentially wuxia and needs a more natural orchestral sound. You can't just pump things up with a bunch of synth-rock like it's a series of wrestling matches. The kind of nonsense Faulconer, Menza, and the like produced is superficial, it oversimplifies the show, and it frankly robs it of its soul. Even that faux new age stuff is just so bland and generic it barely registers except on a stereotypical level.

[Kaboom]

Gentlemen, please. Attitudes.

[SolarBlade52]

I appreciate Shunsuke Kikuchi for what he does. He has been composing music for 40 years. I have to hand it to him.

[cRookie_Monster]

You can't just pump things up with a bunch of synth-rock like it's a series of wrestling matches. The kind of nonsense Faulconer, Menza, and the like produced is superficial, it oversimplifies the show, and it frankly robs it of its soul. Even that faux new age stuff is just so bland and generic it barely registers except on a stereotypical level.

And a lot of people feel the complete opposite about the "corny 50's cheese music". Me, meh, I can see both points of view. *Anything* with emotion in it can be called cheesy and superficial once people understand what makes it tick. I could see calling both scores cheesy, and I could see calling them both emotional. Depends on how you choose to look at the glass.

I think you have a problem with Barry Watson, who ordered the style update from 50s\80s cartoons to 1999. Faulconer Productions and Menza were just following orders. We actually tried to lighten it up at Faulconer's studio. We got shot down multiple times. You know I literally was doubled over laughing out of frustration when I first put "Destruction" over Trunks killing Frieza? It was ridiculous, and I friggin' arranged\performed that track. Yeah you know that, we've talked about this before. I should just shut up lol. And btw...there's people who love Destruction in that scene. ARe they wrong? It's subjective, that's what it is.

[Lord Exor]

Yamamoto at least understands that DBZ is essentially wuxia and needs a more natural orchestral sound. You can't just pump things up with a bunch of synth-rock like it's a series of wrestling matches. The kind of nonsense Faulconer, Menza, and the like produced is superficial, it oversimplifies the show, and it frankly robs it of its soul. Even that faux new age stuff is just so bland and generic it barely registers except on a stereotypical level.

That is your opinion, and you are entitled to it. However, that doesn't make it correct--after all, it is a mere subjective purview. Furthermore, your spotty, cursory knowledge of the Faulconer score is conspicuous. "Synth rock" is only one of the myriad genres of music that were employed by Faulconer Productions. If you think Goku's Spirit Bomb, Cell's Slow Theme, and Weird Circus are synth rock then you need to have your ears examined.

[kei17]

The person who influenced Kikuchi most is definitely Kinoshita Chuji. Kikuchi studied under Kinoshita after he graduated from Nihon University. Here are some works of Kinoshita.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Dl74MUarvPw
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f9smqF_KSeM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mfl8WkbUc60
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Wug3UzyIWjk
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PkR24FP_R2M#t=2m06s

[penguintruth]

That is your opinion, and you are entitled to it. However, that doesn't make it correct--after all, it is a mere subjective purview. Furthermore, your spotty, cursory knowledge of the Faulconer score is conspicuous. "Synth rock" is only one of the myriad genres of music that were employed by Faulconer Productions. If you think Goku's Spirit Bomb, Cell's Slow Theme, and Weird Circus are synth rock then you need to have your ears examined.

I was speaking generally, of course, but those other pieces you mentioned aren't any good, either. What bothers me is that a lot of, if not most of the English dub music employed usually sounded like "examples" of music rather than actual music one would use as a score for a film or TV series. Like generic music beds used for commercials.

The person who influenced Kikuchi most is definitely Kinoshita Chuji. Kikuchi studied under Kinoshita after he graduated from Nihon University. Here are some works of Kinoshita.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Dl74MUarvPw
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f9smqF_KSeM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mfl8WkbUc60
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Wug3UzyIWjk
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PkR24FP_R2M#t=2m06s

Some of that sounds quite a bit like some of Hiroshi Miyagawa's work.

[cRookie_Monster]

That is your opinion, and you are entitled to it. However, that doesn't make it correct--after all, it is a mere subjective purview. Furthermore, your spotty, cursory knowledge of the Faulconer score is conspicuous. "Synth rock" is only one of the myriad genres of music that were employed by Faulconer Productions. If you think Goku's Spirit Bomb, Cell's Slow Theme, and Weird Circus are synth rock then you need to have your ears examined.

I was speaking generally, of course, but those other pieces you mentioned aren't any good, either. What bothers me is that a lot of, if not most of the English dub music employed usually sounded like "examples" of music rather than actual music one would use as a score for a film or TV series. Like generic music beds used for commercials.

And I have yet to hear any Japanese piece that sounds like it was written to picture. About 70% of the Faulconer Productions stuff was written for some scene originally (which is actually a fault of the score imo, we "Mickey Moused" far too much). Cell's Slow Theme and Weird Circus were in fact written as beds. Weird Circus wasn't even finished...if you notice how it kind of sputters to an end. Didn't think anyone would ever hear that Spirit Bomb was written to picture, if you watch the scene it was written for, that much will be obvious.

I won't argue with whether they are "good" or not. That's totally subjective. If some people feel the emotion put into those piece, that's "good" enough for me. People are affected by different things.

[Turtle Marked Stone]

which is actually a fault of the score imo, we "Mickey Moused" far too much.

I didn't know that had an actual name! Cool stuff, thanks for teaching me something today.

I think you have a problem with Barry Watson, who ordered the style update from 50s\80s cartoons to 1999. Faulconer Productions and Menza were just following orders. We actually tried to lighten it up at Faulconer's studio. We got shot down multiple times. You know I literally was doubled over laughing out of frustration when I first put "Destruction" over Trunks killing Freeza? It was ridiculous, and I friggin' arranged\performed that track. Yeah you know that, we've talked about this before. I should just shut up lol. And btw...there's people who love Destruction in that scene. ARe they wrong? It's subjective, that's what it is.

It's actually always cool to hear about orders you guys got from higher ups. Would it be legally sound to maybe make an article or thread about that some time? I'd love to see what you guys would do if given free range on say...Kai.

[penguintruth]

And I have yet to hear any Japanese piece that sounds like it was written to picture. About 70% of the Faulconer Productions stuff was written for some scene originally (which is actually a fault of the score imo, we "Mickey Moused" far too much). Cell's Slow Theme and Weird Circus were in fact written as beds. Weird Circus wasn't even finished...if you notice how it kind of sputters to an end. Didn't think anyone would ever hear that Spirit Bomb was written to picture, if you watch the scene it was written for, that much will be obvious.

I won't argue with whether they are "good" or not. That's totally subjective. If some people feel the emotion put into those piece, that's "good" enough for me. People are affected by different things.

And yet the Japanese score SOUNDED more like it was written for scenes than the English score because it had a more natural, atmospheric feeling. You could insert the Faulconer music in anything and it just kind of sits there.

I'm talking about quality. It feels detached. Despite it's blatant attempts to follow a scene (or maybe because of them), it always feels a little crowbarred in and unnatural. It's trying way too hard to be the music of something, but it never really blends in with the scenes.

[cRookie_Monster]

Ok Penguin, I know how you feel, your opinion is well stated ^^. Back to Kikuchi's influences.

I appreciate the comment from the person who brought up his likely Japanese influences. They are probably right. Mancini and all probably had common influence from before that.

[Adamant]

And I have yet to hear any Japanese piece that sounds like it was written to picture.

Watch the movies. A lot of the music originally appeared in, and was originally written to accompany specific scenes in, those.

[cRookie_Monster]

And I have yet to hear any Japanese piece that sounds like it was written to picture.

Watch the movies. A lot of the music originally appeared in, and was originally written to accompany specific scenes in, those.

Ah yes, that's probably true. My main exposure to the movies was with the Ocean score long ago.