Opinions on "Strength?"

[dbgtFO]

After being active in Dragon Ball debates(mostly strength debates ) for the last 6 months, I've realized, that it's common for guys, who don't like huge power gaps and other characters looking pathetic in comparison, to use the argument "there's NO WAY this character could be that strong!!" which, if you ask me, is not a very good argument, when it's only based on ones personal opinon(I have used that argument as well and I can't say I'm proud of it).

But is it really a problem, that some guys end up much stronger than other characters?
If we look at Toriyama's in-universe examples, we have Freeza eventually being revealed to be a thousand times stronger, than the last villain(Ginyu), which suggests that Toriyama didn't limit himself to conservative gaps or that he didn't care about how ridiculous it ended up being.

Another example could be Vegetto being equal to Vegeta multiplied by Goku, which, if it really was meant to be in terms of Battle Power, would make Vegetto way over a million times stronger than Goku.

I personally think the problem with ridiculous power gaps arises because of there being numbers at play("he's a million times stronger" is waaay more specific than "he's way more powerful") and the fact that most people, who like debating about strength base their arguments in terms of Battle Powers and if we weren't so affected by the numbers and battle powers perhaps it wouldn't be hard to accept that Vegetto = Vegeta x Goku, but that's obviously only my guess.

So what do you think?
Is there placed too much emphasis on Strength in the fandom? And do you raise an eyebrow, when certain characters experience a huge power up almost absurd?

Or do you not care about that aspect of DB and simply enjoy the franchise without worrying too much about the characters' strength compared to each other and stuff like that?

[GotenDaisuki]

Actually, I have noticed that in Dragon Ball, Goku was stronger than almost every bad guy he came in contact with, but when Dragon Ball Z arrived, a whole bunch of guys leagues stronger than Goku started showing up.

[Piccolo Daimao]

The problem is that once battle powers were introduced, everyone's jumps in power were realized. If there weren't any battle powers, then no-one would be complaining that the Earthlings made a much bigger jump in power training at God's Palace did, in much less time. But I pretty much just ignore characters' humungous increases in power because, at the end of the day, it's all plot convenience.

Not that I resent battle powers or anything. They were useful, for the period of time they were in the series. And yes, of course there is too much emphasis placed on strength in DB fandom. It just pulverises my brain to even think so hard about an individual's strength, when it's not like Toriyama ever cared about an insignificant quote that may or may not imply that Super Saiyan Gotenks is stronger than Fat Boo. But I always get sucked in these kinds of debates, like it's a kind of addiction, more often than not because I'm always itching to counter someone's argument with my own.

[PatPat]

The huge power gaps are used as a way to progress the plot. A new villian shows up then he beats up on the heroes to show how powerful and how much of a threat he is. Then Goku has to show up and defeat this insanely powerful villian which shows how powerful goku has become in comparison to the weaker characters.

Comparing one characters power to another characters is usually the easiest way to tell how strong someone truly is in the series and thats how its always been.

[Kiyza]

It's not that I don't necessarily like to discuss people's strength, but rather, when that's practically the only thing people do, it grates on my nerves. I feel that people get too wrapped up in these discussions. There are threads discussing a certain character's strength go on for post after post, where as other in-universe discussions get practically ignored by comparison. People can argue the day away with these things, and it feels almost like a dub/sub war in that people are so heavily opinionated towards one side or another.

I feel like the occasional discussion about strength is warranted, and they can be enjoyable, but they often derail into just flat out arguing, like the recent thread about Gohan and Dabra. If discussions only cropped up every now and then and no one got all huffy about them, I don't think I'd mind them quite as much.

But I think the issue here is that it's literally the only thing that a lot of people post about. Strength is only one part of the series, and it gets rather boring to just see threads about it day in and day out with people comparing the characters' power.

Honestly, I don't care too much about how strong character A is as opposed to character B. Strength increases aren't really a big deal to me, considering that Dragon Ball has taken physical strength to levels of absurdity since chapter one. I don't think it's too hard to just accept that characters are just going to get stronger at absurd rates, even from an in-universe perspective. At the end of the day, I feel it's just one thing that people can discuss, and it gets way too much attention, considering it's all some people post about.

So yeah, strength discussions are overrated if you ask me. Nothing wrong with them every now and then, but people take them too seriously and all hell breaks loose.

[Kendamu]

Seems that the well-stated points of, "Hey, Scouters are useless peices of junk compared to our ability to amplify our power," and, "So, that thing you do where you reduce Saiyans to mere numbers? Yep... doesn't work, dude," don't seem to register in the minds of many people who have strength discussions. That's why I stay out of them. Sure, I like to read things here and tere like the Strength Checker from time to time and I thought the Punching Machine incident at the Budokai was really funny, but I just don't read that much into it. It's like deciding the outcome of a UFC match based on the little pie chart on a fighter's profile when loking at the fight lineup. Nobody would've ever guessed that Anderson Silva would've won with a front snap kick to the face in the first round of his latest fight because of some numbers on a website.

[Rocketman]

As somebody who does a lot of that arguing, my argument is usually not based on "they can't get that strong" so much as "there's no need for them to be that strong".

Take one of the more common ones, the humans when the Androids arrive. Does anything at all change, become odd, or outright contradict events if Tien is at 50,000 or 500,000 or 5,000,000 or even 50,000,000?

No. In all cases he's still too weak to do anything but get fucked up, and in this specific case, even at 50 mil the Super Kikoho is STILL a massive multiplier. So why claim that he reached 50 mil by ~magical mountain training~ when there is no evidence, no need, and no cause to say he did?

[Kaboom]

I discovered that it appeals to my artistic side to make numerical Power Level lists for fun. Read that again, "for fun." I don't take them particularly seriously, and practically every revision I make is due to have something new I want to "try out." That's about as far as my interest in actual numbers goes.

When judging the scale of power in those terms, I generally agree with Rocketman's philosophy of, "what's the need?" Even for the bigger players, the story makes just as much internal sense with Android 17 at 300 million as it does with him at 500 million. Hence my somewhat "conservative" methodology when I make power level lists, which I've noticed can seem to rub other individuals and communities the wrong way. But it's like Vegeta said, "we can't be reduced to numbers," and since it's all made-up anyway, what's it matter?

Insofar as focusing on power in general, even without the numbers angle, I suppose my artistic side is to blame for that, too. My fanfic has been a big part of my fandom for way too long now, and since my memory is so bad, I have to do a lot of research and take a lot of notes when planning stuff for its story. I'm pretty sure that's how I became such an in-universe-centric fan. Can't remember for sure, exactly.

But along with trying to catalogue and make sense of the internal "logic" of the series comes having to form conclusions and opinions about the characters' power. After, all, it's Dragon Ball, wherein (in most cases) power is everything. When it comes to stuff like the Majin Boo arc, where things get really goofy, a lot of it can get muddled and confusing, to the point where certain elements are really up in the air for anyone to decide for themselves.

[Senzu_Bean]

Most "strength" debates are pretty ridiculous, specially those with officially word where people start to pull shit from their asses just to make them feel smart over those who seemingly don't use their heads to make false assumptions over a damn fictional, manga work. Gosh, written even sounds more ridiculous than I thought.

But those who are left for interpretation usually are a decent read, if the arguments are good, that is it.

[Savage68]

My opinion on strength debates is that they don't really matter (shocking, I know!). Like Kiyza said, some of them can be entertaining, and I find myself reading a lot of them moreso for the juicy interactions between members than the actual dissertations of how powerful characters are. But as a whole, my feeling towards them is "been there, done that." As in, I've done the power level thing, argued for what I believe(d) in and... absolutely nothing has changed. Because it's all just one big clusterfuck of subjectivity. New theories arise, old ones stick around and blah blah blah the vicious cycle is stuck on repeat.

[Kiyza]

I discovered that it appeals to my artistic side to make numerical Power Level lists for fun. Read that again, "for fun." I don't take them particularly seriously, and practically every revision I make is due to have something new I want to "try out." That's about as far as my interest in actual numbers goes.

I just thought I'd throw this out there, that's the reason I actually read your lists in the first place. They're kind of entertaining in some sort of way. A lot of the other members who post in that thread go on for pages and pages about a certain character's level of strength and so on and so forth, where as you actually bring something I can laugh at to the table.

(d) in and... absolutely nothing has changed. Because it's all just one big clusterfuck of subjectivity. New theories arise, old ones stick around and blah blah blah the vicious cycle is stuck on repeat.

Alright, this is another reason I can't stand most discussions. They just go on and on, but despite that, very little that's new is brought to the table after the first page or so, and it just devolves into bantering back and forth.

[CatouttaHell]

I personally enjoy strength debates. I really wish this forum had a sub-forum just for versus topics. If nothing else, all of the people that are annoyed by strength debates could just easily avoid them that way.

[Piccolo Daimao]

I really wish this forum had a sub-forum just for versus topics.

See, the thing that I dislike about that kind of topic, more often than not, it can be left up in the air for people to decide where they want to place strength debates. Back on MFG, they had a versus thread, but that was because they were a forum who were more focused on strength debates than general franchise discussion. But then you had threads like "Videl vs. 21st TB Kame-sennin" or "LSSj Broli vs. Perfect Cell", and in those cases, more often than not, it's just posts of people with not much to back up their own opinion other than just saying, "Yeah, I think Cell would win", giving their reason, and then there's not much left for discussion. I think it's best left for forums that do focus primarily on strength debates. Plus, if there was a sub-forum for just one specific kind of topic (which can be put into the In-Universe forum anyway), it would quickly become bland and boring.

Of course, that's just me. I understand that people do like those sorts of debates. I just don't think there's a place for them here.

[CatouttaHell]

See, the thing that I dislike about that kind of topic, more often than not, it can be left up in the air for people to decide where they want to place strength debates. Back on MFG, they had a versus thread, but that was because they were a forum who were more focused on strength debates than general franchise discussion. But then you had threads like "Videl vs. 21st TB Kame-sennin" or "LSSj Broli vs. Perfect Cell", and in those cases, more often than not, it's just posts of people with not much to back up their own opinion other than just saying, "Yeah, I think Cell would win", giving their reason, and then there's not much left for discussion. I think it's best left for forums that do focus primarily on strength debates. Plus, if there was a sub-forum for just one specific kind of topic (which can be put into the In-Universe forum anyway), it would quickly become bland and boring.

Of course, that's just me. I understand that people do like those sorts of debates. I just don't think there's a place for them here.

Yeah, I frequented MFG back when it existed, hence why I suggested making a sub-forum like that here. I know there are still other forums for that left, but unfortunately (to the best of my knowledge) this is the only DB forum left that doesn't have hordes of idiots who don't understand basic English grammar.

I think this forum has specific rules against just making an empty post like "Yeah, I think Cell would win." without any elaboration doesn't it? I know stuff like "Cell > Broli > Goku" is explicitly disallowed. I just think it's a good idea because people who hate these kinds of debates to ignore them easily, and would prevent the main In-Universe Discussion forum from ever being clogged with random "X vs. Y" threads. But that's just my opinion.

[Kaboom]

They're far from being something that gets seen enough here to merit its own subforum. Only a thread or two every so often.

If we see a surge of them in the In-Universe subforum anytime soon, then there MAY be a single, dedicated "Versus" thread made for them within it. That's what happened for Power Level lists in the Fan-Created Works section (there weren't many PL list threads; it was more of an combined introductory and preemptive measure), and it's the most a "Versus" thread will ever get on here. Nobody should go creating hordes of them just because I said that or anything, though.

[Kendamu]

See, the thing that I dislike about that kind of topic, more often than not, it can be left up in the air for people to decide where they want to place strength debates. Back on MFG, they had a versus thread, but that was because they were a forum who were more focused on strength debates than general franchise discussion. But then you had threads like "Videl vs. 21st TB Kame-sennin" or "LSSj Broli vs. Perfect Cell", and in those cases, more often than not, it's just posts of people with not much to back up their own opinion other than just saying, "Yeah, I think Cell would win", giving their reason, and then there's not much left for discussion. I think it's best left for forums that do focus primarily on strength debates. Plus, if there was a sub-forum for just one specific kind of topic (which can be put into the In-Universe forum anyway), it would quickly become bland and boring.

Of course, that's just me. I understand that people do like those sorts of debates. I just don't think there's a place for them here.

Yeah, I frequented MFG back when it existed, hence why I suggested making a sub-forum like that here. I know there are still other forums for that left, but unfortunately (to the best of my knowledge) this is the only DB forum left that doesn't have hordes of idiots who don't understand basic English grammar.

I think this forum has specific rules against just making an empty post like "Yeah, I think Cell would win." without any elaboration doesn't it? I know stuff like "Cell > Broli > Goku" is explicitly disallowed. I just think it's a good idea because people who hate these kinds of debates to ignore them easily, and would prevent the main In-Universe Discussion forum from ever being clogged with random "X vs. Y" threads. But that's just my opinion.

I'd rather keep it this way so that people tempted to make such empty posts would instead be required to elaborate on their reasoning. If they can't elaborate, then the post simply won't exist to begin with and there's nothing to ignore.