14 questions - different topics

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14 questions - different topics

Post by Sorata » Wed Apr 20, 2011 11:42 am

Hi. I'm new here and after some break from the DB universe i suddenly felt some curiousity how are things in the DB fan kingdom now.

Please note that all my opinions probably aren't as much objective as I'd want them to be :)

For starters I'll try to explain how i understand Ki in the series:

For me Ki is the raw energy produced in constant stream by every living cell in ones organism. So to speak each person in the series has different KPS (Ki per second) production. Not to forget about different Ki storing capacity. An untrained warrior has two states of Ki flow: while relaxed and while fighting. A fighting person automatically keeps some buffering Ki around his/her's body like some sort of layer or shield protecting from attacks. Spending Ki to that layer is based purely on instinct and can be raised the same way during blocking or even preparing for a punch. Furthermore each warriors Ki is imprinted with some of his personal traits for example: good or evil. When comparing Ki sensing to other senses we can tell each warrior has his own and in some way unique "scent". But here we must remember that Ki sensing is way more precise and can often be used to read the opponents movements even during fights. For example – we have Kuririn dodging Nappa's attacks in the Saiyan saga. The Earthling felt changes in Nappas Ki and adapted to it.


Here's some questions i want to ask you that developed over the years i spent tracking DB debates across different forums and sites (with my interpretation):

1.Why does the warriors measured level of power increase during performing an energy attack?

I think that the scouter reading during an energy attack can be called full power of a warrior. Standard power level is directly linked to the flow rate of Ki with a constant stream to the outside - KPS (or to be more precise – production per fraction of a second). Ki control or mastery allows to change range, power, structure or in some examples even direction of a Ki attack. I think when the warrior concentrates on the attack each cells KPS increases and Ki can flow with a wider stream. It would be logical to assume (due to the connection Ki has with ones mind and spirit ) that he loses additional Ki to maintain the shape, density and in some cases forcing a deadly cargo in the most compact form. What's more – that rule can also be linked to powering up – a warrior is concentrating to increase his KPS to his personal maximum. Which can't be maintained long cause of the stress it causes to the cells. Each energy has the tendency to disperse so a warrior allowing his Ki to leak from the body must be maximally concentrated (hence ability to project Ki is said to be used by the masters only). Linking all the points a warrior can only perform one full power attack or many weaker and less controlled.

2. What's an aura? Is it a technique or just a visualisation of energy increases?

Aura as an technique is simply absurd to me. It's never stated to give even the smallest profits. During an all out fight when a warrior must force himself to use every fraction of energy, the excess Ki which he couldn't control leaks from his body. So for me the aura is just a projection of this constantly lost energy. I heard some opinions that kaioken is an aura technique and it's the aura that allows the warrior to exceed his potential at that moment. I think kaioken works more like some restriction remover. If we assume that one theoretical cell able to produce immense power is stripped from biologically programmed restrictions and forced to instantly produce several times bigger energy in the same time as before we can also assume that this strain causes necrosis. Thats why Goku instantly increasing his KPS production can't control this huge leak of Ki. Therefore the roaring, chaoticly flaming Kaioken aura. By learning Kaioken he mastered convincing his own body to surpass it's limits (mind over matter guys :D).

3. Does the energy increase depend from a warrior or from a technique he uses?

I think it's dependant only from the warrior. A technique can influence the shape or charging time but maximum power will always be the same. For example – if Vegeta used final flash or kamehameha against Perfect Cell the energy he'd use would be the same but the effect may vary based on charging time.

4. How much can one increase his power level while concentrating or firing an energy attack?

If we assume that Piccolo and Goku during their fight with Radditz had perfect Ki control we can tell (with some error possibility of course) that the increase is more or less 3- fold. But the 3-fold increase for makkankosappo was a result of a very long cummulation so in a case of firing quicker (like Goku's kamehameha in this fight) we can talk about approximately 2- fold increase. I also think that Piccolo's and Goku's maximum power level (separately) was bigger than the standard power level Radditz showed. But Radditz couldn't control his Ki so his standard level was at the moment his maximum. Good thing that at this time powering up to maximum was a big deal for the good guys cause this way Radditz actually stood a chance. My viewpoint is proven by Vegetas words that Radditz was defeated a bunch of weaklings with a power barely excessing one thousand.

5. How does it look like from an biological viewpoint?

Each cell produces energy which falls with a constant stream to whatever system it uses – nervous, limfatic etc, and through it is spread across entire body. Some warriors are able to control the production and flow of this power to the level over which given cell almost destroys itself (kaioken overcomes that barrier).

6. How much does responding with an energy attack weaken incoming energy wave?

Whatever physical (or mathematical) explanation would be good for me here. Let's say attack A – 1000, attack B- 2000. They clash. Attack A becomes overpowered, a fuckton of energy dissipates and attack B hits the opponent with 1000 force. Of course attacks shaped to explode don't have that stopping power.

7. What kind of damage is dealt by energy attacks?

First, let's introduce some order into different attacks:

a.waves
b.discs
c.beams
d.bombs

Ad. a

From what i've seen waves can be split into three categories: pure energy, flaming and (some kind of) electric. It's hard to tell which type is the most effective. Pure energy can be negated throug energy barriers or protective layers around a warriors body. Each block increasing Ki consumption (or KPS) with for example adrenaline rush will strenghten that barrier. It is best to respond with a similar wave to even slightly weaken the incoming attack. Energy attacks overload opponent cells with energy disintegrating them. The instinctive barrier protecting the cells is purely energy based hence flaming attacks go through it more easily. Accumulated heat can be more damaging when defending warrior is blocking. Of course electric attacks are also pure energy but additionaly they involve spasms of opponents muscles leaving him open to the next attack. I think each type of attack consists from the same kinds of energy( pure, thermal or electrical) but the proportions beetwen them are vastly different.

Ad. b

Discs are centered on maximum conversion of Ki. Thanks to that we obtain very high Ki concentrated on a millimeter (or less – depending of ones mastery of Ki control) thickness. They inflict pure slashing wounds. The huge advantage this kind of attack has is a possibility to kill or heavily wound even much stronger opponent (Kienzan against Freeza or Nappa). Ki concentration (sometimes with an additional rotation) overpowers opponents body local KPS production on given surface. The attack frets the cells whose energy it overpowered. In this moment all depends from what depletes faster: energy of the body absorbing the impact of the attack or the attack itself. Example: Kuririn had just a miniscule fraction af Perfect Cells power so even his most powerful Kienzan he could muster at that moment ( without charging it for a prolonged time) was overpowered by Cells unconcious energy output. Cell's regeneration could have played some part in this but i see the gap beetween them so huge that in my eyes that doesn't make a difference.

Ad. c

Beams work basically the same way as discs. Depending of their cross-section they overpower local energy output. They have one serious flaw though – they must be precisely aimed to hit some vital organ or the agressor must increase the cross-section to maximize hit probability. Type of damage can be compared to high velocity bullet wounds.

Ad. d

Bombs tend to explode. Thats all there is to it. To this category we assign Ki blasts but also attacks such as big bang. What's interesting even the structure of some waves can be altered to explode on impact. Warrior hit with this kind of "package" gets damaged from energy, heat and kinetic impact (classic combo :)). The downside is bombs can be easily detonated or deflected with a relatively small blast.

8. Does regeneration count as an Ki ability? (Namekians, Cell, Buu)

I think this is plausible. Example: sacrificing an amount of Ki equaling the normal energy of lost cells can regenerate said cells. As for Buu his regeneration was haxed and maybe basing on some kind of magic. Even Piccolo could create something out of nowhere so creatures with more magic in DB universe could have this ability a lot stronger.

9. How come Buu's energy never runs out?

I have no idea. The only one theory that comes to my mind besides magic is that due to this jelly goo he was built of (i seriously doubt Buu was a carbon based life form) Buu somehow replenished energy lost to regeneration with the energy of a new born cell. But since energy just doesnt come from nowhere – maybe he could absorb all kinds of energy surrounding him and add them to its own? That would explain why even after the strongest punches he regenerated quickly – cause kinetic energy from said punches took only a short while being processed and added to his Ki. Energy attacks caused his cells to desintegrate meaning it took him longer to rebuild himself. Genki Dama just overloaded his cells so quickly his organism couldnt keep up with the energy processing. Eventually energy within each of his cells was bigger than the strenght of molecular fixation between separate cells. So each attack ripped cells from Buu and they were floating in a more or less visible lumps and the universal code of these cells allowed them to unite into one organism again. These theories also explain why Good Buu was losing power against Kid. Since Kid was pressing without hesitation all cells Good Buu was losing at a constant rate were dragged towards the stronger energy source which was Kid Buu. Ultimately the difference in powers was so strong that all of the energy at the battlefield was stolen from Good Buu as we see he couldn't regenerate.

10. How did the healing techniques work?

Kibitos powers probably were close to magic as I see him as some kind of divine creature much like Kami, Kaio or Kaioshin. But the powers inherited by Dende practically didn't differ from Kibitos ability. The little guy never showed any loss of energy after healing, even when he healed Mystic Gohan. So we can forget about trading equal amounts of energy since Dende's ki would probably equal 0,0...........1 Gohans at that point. Maybe the healers somehow channeled solar or magnetic energy in a similar fashion Genki Dama does?

11. Is fusion or absorbtion a Ki technique?

Plausible. On some level fusion is a Ki technique cause the only thing the fusion subjects retain is the same energy compacted into smaller form. Maybe this is the source of power for fusions that combined and strenghtened singular cell with added or even multiplied KPS can easily channel much more energy. The absorbtion is different in my eyes though. Furthermore it's different for Cell and Buu. Buu adds absorbed subjects power to his own. Eventually he gets some of this subjects traits – like good nature (Dai Kaioshin), or ability to think logically (Piccolo). As Buu's cells are far from being normal I can't see them merging with normal cells the same way fusion does. Cell on the other hand absorbed humans in the form of liquid. That increased his power (in a linear fashion i think) but even if he absorbed all of them he wouldnt become perfect. For this he needed two organisms specifically designed for this purpose – Jinzoningen #17 and #18. I think they completed his genetic code and allowed him to become "perfect".

12. Is kaioken similar to SSJ?

Probably not. For starters kaioken heavily strained the body. Ssj doesnt have that flaw. I see it like that: each warrior has a limit of ki his body could produce at any given moment. Kaioken breaks this limit forcibly at the cost of destroying ones own body. On the other hand SSJ transforms the body to overcome this limit and set a new one. In my eyes this applies for every transformation we see in the series. So kaioken=technique, SSJ=transformation.

13. Does kaioken has any kind of limit?

Yes and no at the same time. Theoretically even Goku during his fight on earth could use kaioken x200. This would probably last a fraction of a second and Goku would be vaporized in the process. Thats if we assume the Kaioken is an instant increase (which I personally believe). If it requires to come through earlier stages of kaioken then Goku would probably drop dead at x7. It also depends what kind of organism we talk about. First come the Earthlings and Saiya-jin cause their genetic structure is similar to the degree allowing both species to reproduce with eachother. Earthlings – weaker than Saiyans didn't have large power levels and all the shown examples couldn't probably use kaioken stronger than x30 without dying (and this is giving them too much credit I think). The Saiyans on the other hand had SSJ transformations giving them more power than the strongest kaioken they could muster in base state (and without the extremely rapid energy consumption and destroying their own body). Eventually we can assume they could overcome their own strength as Ssj (or SSJ 2-3 ) but it would drain their Ki instatly before the fight would even start. Then we have other controversial races like Namekians, Changelings or even individuals like Cell and Buu. We can only guess how their organisms work not to mention some of them have abilities dangerously close to being called magic. Even then I don't think they could use kaioken much more efficiently than Goku. Buu is the extreme example out here because of his ridiculous regeneration ability. He probably could compensate with his cells for absurdly high levels of kaioken and the second he stops using it he starts to regenerate. So as long as he's smart enough not to vaporize himself i could see kaioken Buu being the strongest in the universe.

14. How does ki sensing work?

Earlier I compared sensing ki to the sense of smell. But more accurate would be to say that sensing Ki is like seing a bright light. It's impossible to say numerically how strong something shines. The only character capable of this was #16. Just because he had an electronic device installed. Thats why all the characters without scouters only say about a probable range of power for the person they sense – weaker than me, more or less equal, stronger than me. Whats more there are examples that once you're heavily outclassed, the only way to describe the opponents ki is HUGE! or MONSTROUS!. When comparing two beings that "shine" much brighter than yourself your estimates aren't probably even remotely close to their real powers cause they both blind you at that moment. Lets look at Goku and Mirai Trunks first encounter. They were hardly even (Goku blocked all of opponents slashes without moving anything but his right hand) yet the reactions everyone displayed witnessing this clash were totally one sided – that both SSJ have enormous but equal power. You don't see the difference beetween the stars, do You? Yet each of them shines with a different magnitude. Other examples – two lightbulbs – unless one of them is 40W and other 100W you can't really tell the difference just by looking at them. Now imagine you're seing two even stronger lights. Both blind you at the first sight – can you tell which one is stronger just by looking at them? No. One must take into consideration other factors. Feeling Reiatsu in Bleach would also be a good example but I'm aware that not everyone have seen it. It would explain some of the reactions when someone felt a big Ki. The ones that cross my mind right now:
-Goku saying he feels a bunch of huge Ki's when he arrived on Namek
-Piccolo, Gohan and Kuririn unable to tell the difference beetween Vegeta pre and post zenkai on Namek until he actually starts fighting
-Goku describing Vegetas Ki as huge after he performed kaioken on Earth
-all good fighters unable to tell that Perfect Cell powering in front of their eyes is weaker than Gohan SSJ2
-all of them couldn't tell the difference beetween SSJ Goku and SSJ Vegeta in the android saga
-Piccolo suposedly being in the same range as the SSJ according to Kuririn
-Piccolo (and everyone else) amazed by Gotenks SSJ yet Piccolo is still sceptic and wants to see Gotenks in action.
-Gotenks base after RoSaT supposedly being uber strong
There are probably more examples but you understand what I mean at this point. What are Your opinions?


Congrats for getting to this point :) Yes - my goal was to bore You all to death so i would be the one and only Daizex user... :D

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Re: 14 questions - different topics

Post by Bussani » Wed Apr 20, 2011 10:26 pm

Welcome to the forum. Big first post! I'm only going to reply to the parts where I had specific thoughts of my own. Forgive me if any of these thoughts are kind of...all over the place.
Sorata wrote:2. What's an aura? Is it a technique or just a visualisation of energy increases?
An aura isn't really a "technique". It's...well, it is your ki, basically. Sometimes (not often in Dragon Ball itself) the word is even used synonymously with ki; I've even seen the term "aura power" in some other works of fiction. It's like a field of your spiritual/emotional/psychic energy that surrounds your body. It's almost always there, but not always visible. The Wikipedia article on auras explains this pretty generically. The word can also be used in a completely non-supernatural way, like: "He has an aura of distrust about him."
3. Does the energy increase depend from a warrior or from a technique he uses?

I think it's dependant only from the warrior. A technique can influence the shape or charging time but maximum power will always be the same. For example – if Vegeta used final flash or kamehameha against Perfect Cell the energy he'd use would be the same but the effect may vary based on charging time.
It's stated that something like Kikoho is just naturally stronger than a Kamehameha, so the technique might factor into it after all. Goku also developed the "Super Kamehameha" while training with Mr. Popo, which is supposedly a stronger version of the standard Kamehameha. It's possible that the Kamehameha he uses after that point is always this upgraded version.
8. Does regeneration count as an Ki ability? (Namekians, Cell, Buu)

I think this is plausible. Example: sacrificing an amount of Ki equaling the normal energy of lost cells can regenerate said cells. As for Buu his regeneration was haxed and maybe basing on some kind of magic. Even Piccolo could create something out of nowhere so creatures with more magic in DB universe could have this ability a lot stronger.
Freeza comments that Nail lost stamina/power after regenerating, so yeah.
Chapter: 286 (DBZ 92), P10.5
Context: after Nail regrows his arm
Freeza: “This is a surprise! So you can regenerate? But even though you’ve returned to normal, things will still be the same. Besides, it seems that you can’t recover your stamina. Your battle power has fallen from what it was before…”
10. How did the healing techniques work?

Kibitos powers probably were close to magic as I see him as some kind of divine creature much like Kami, Kaio or Kaioshin. But the powers inherited by Dende practically didn't differ from Kibitos ability. The little guy never showed any loss of energy after healing, even when he healed Mystic Gohan. So we can forget about trading equal amounts of energy since Dende's ki would probably equal 0,0...........1 Gohans at that point. Maybe the healers somehow channeled solar or magnetic energy in a similar fashion Genki Dama does?
Well, the Daizenshuu says this about it:
Restoration Power
First Appearance: Chapter 299
Category: ability
People: Kibito, Dende
Special Characteristics: A technique where one gives ki to bodies that have been injured or whose battle power has dropped from battle, restoring their power. With his dormant power released by Saichourou, Dende gathers the electricity-like ki from his entire body, and emits it from his hands. Kibito uses an ability he got from being born among the people of the Heavenly Realm, restoring people through a kiai that he sends into them (Daizenshuu 4, p. 50)
So take that as you will.
5. How does it look like from an biological viewpoint?

Each cell produces energy which falls with a constant stream to whatever system it uses – nervous, limfatic etc, and through it is spread across entire body. Some warriors are able to control the production and flow of this power to the level over which given cell almost destroys itself (kaioken overcomes that barrier).
9. How come Buu's energy never runs out?

I have no idea. The only one theory that comes to my mind besides magic is that due to this jelly goo he was built of (i seriously doubt Buu was a carbon based life form) Buu somehow replenished energy lost to regeneration with the energy of a new born cell. But since energy just doesnt come from nowhere – maybe he could absorb all kinds of energy surrounding him and add them to its own? That would explain why even after the strongest punches he regenerated quickly – cause kinetic energy from said punches took only a short while being processed and added to his Ki. Energy attacks caused his cells to desintegrate meaning it took him longer to rebuild himself. Genki Dama just overloaded his cells so quickly his organism couldnt keep up with the energy processing. Eventually energy within each of his cells was bigger than the strenght of molecular fixation between separate cells. So each attack ripped cells from Buu and they were floating in a more or less visible lumps and the universal code of these cells allowed them to unite into one organism again. These theories also explain why Good Buu was losing power against Kid. Since Kid was pressing without hesitation all cells Good Buu was losing at a constant rate were dragged towards the stronger energy source which was Kid Buu. Ultimately the difference in powers was so strong that all of the energy at the battlefield was stolen from Good Buu as we see he couldn't regenerate.
For me Ki is the raw energy produced in constant stream by every living cell in ones organism.
Ki, particularly in Japanese fiction, is usually described as a spiritual energy. Toriyama explains in one of the Super Exciting Guides that ki in Dragon Ball is made up of such spiritual powers as genki (energy/health/vigor), yuuki (bravery), and shouki ("true character", or being in one's right mind). Personally, I don't think trying to describe it in terms of cells producing energy really fits. For one thing, you ask how Buu's energy can never fall and say that energy just can't come out of nowhere--which is very true if we're talking about "real" energy--but then, what would a person's cells use to make all the energy Dragon Ball characters spew out? Even Goku doesn't eat enough food to produce a planet killing blast; even if a character could somehow turn everything they eat entirely into energy, they'd have to eat more than 2,747,915,810,000 tons of food to produce that much.

I think it makes more sense to think of ki as something that defies the laws of energy conservation; being a spiritual energy, you can produce more just by having "more spirit". Of course, it's hard to have any sort of spirit when you're beaten up and physically exhausted.
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Re: 14 questions - different topics

Post by dbgtFO » Fri Apr 22, 2011 3:37 pm

Welcome! And nice topic!
I do believe Ki in Dragon Ball has a biological aspect to it.
Afterall Cell could apparently gain his opponents abilities by obtaining samples from his opponents cells, so the ability to produce ki blasts lies in the cells as well.

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Re: 14 questions - different topics

Post by knight007 » Fri Apr 22, 2011 8:57 pm

Speaking of auras, are they so strong that non ki-sensers can see them? I.E. could any everyday Joe see them?

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Re: 14 questions - different topics

Post by Bussani » Sat Apr 23, 2011 1:12 am

knight007 wrote:Speaking of auras, are they so strong that non ki-sensers can see them? I.E. could any everyday Joe see them?
Maybe not in early Dragon Ball, where visible auras were rarer, but several characters in Z (Cell games announcer, Babidi/Dabura) comment that characters are "enveloped in flames" or "glowing" due to their aura. Come to think of it, Goku's aura emitting visible light was an important point during the fight with Yakon.
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Re: 14 questions - different topics

Post by Piccolo Daimao » Sat Apr 23, 2011 12:33 pm

Bussani wrote:
knight007 wrote:Speaking of auras, are they so strong that non ki-sensers can see them? I.E. could any everyday Joe see them?
Maybe not in early Dragon Ball, where visible auras were rarer, but several characters in Z (Cell games announcer, Babidi/Dabura) comment that characters are "enveloped in flames" or "glowing" due to their aura. Come to think of it, Goku's aura emitting visible light was an important point during the fight with Yakon.
I recall that Piccolo Daimao powering up to full power was the first visible aura depicted in Dragon Ball.
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Re: 14 questions - different topics

Post by Sorata » Thu Apr 28, 2011 12:17 pm

Hello. Thanks for your answers and warm welcome. I know i didn't post for a long time so I'm gonna get straight to reply:
It's stated that something like Kikoho is just naturally stronger than a Kamehameha, so the technique might factor into it after all.
Yeah I forgot about that. But wasn't Tenshinhan using also his life force to power up his attack ? In this way the Kikoho isn't a simple energy wave. It can also be some aspect of magic like Shishinken. Tenshinhans has many techniques that can't be called "normal".
Goku also developed the "Super Kamehameha" while training with Mr. Popo, which is supposedly a stronger version of the standard Kamehameha. It's possible that the Kamehameha he uses after that point is always this upgraded version.
Never is it stated that his "Super" kamehameha is a stronger variant of this attack. He could be calling it Super just cause compared to his early stages of development he couldn't control his Ki very well thus pouring less ki to his energy attacks. Kid Gokus kamehamehas were nothing compared to the one he uses as an adult.
Special Characteristics: A technique where one gives ki to bodies that have been injured or whose battle power has dropped from battle, restoring their power. With his dormant power released by Saichourou, Dende gathers the electricity-like ki from his entire body, and emits it from his hands. Kibito uses an ability he got from being born among the people of the Heavenly Realm, restoring people through a kiai that he sends into them (Daizenshuu 4, p. 50)
Still that quote doesn't axplain how it works. It states only how they do it.
Ki, particularly in Japanese fiction, is usually described as a spiritual energy. Toriyama explains in one of the Super Exciting Guides that ki in Dragon Ball is made up of such spiritual powers as genki (energy/health/vigor), yuuki (bravery), and shouki ("true character", or being in one's right mind). Personally, I don't think trying to describe it in terms of cells producing energy really fits.
I'm aware of the spiritual aspect of Ki. Bot ones spirit is bonded with the body. I simply cannot agree that their Ki resides in their minds cause there's too much evidence that it's enchanced through physical (biological) means like pushups or enchanced gravity more than meditation.
For one thing, you ask how Buu's energy can never fall and say that energy just can't come out of nowhere--which is very true if we're talking about "real" energy--but then, what would a person's cells use to make all the energy Dragon Ball characters spew out?
Real or fictional energy - it doesn't matter to me. example - We could consider Ki as a multiplication of "normal" energy...
Even Goku doesn't eat enough food to produce a planet killing blast; even if a character could somehow turn everything they eat entirely into energy, they'd have to eat more than 2,747,915,810,000 tons of food to produce that much.
Good point. But if You consider that ones strenght comes entirely from his mind or spirit You obviosly must ask yourself why the heck Saiyans eat this much? If it's spiritual energy they use why don't they eat like a normal guy? Going by SEGs definition i think most of their Ki comes from "genki". The Earthlings are a different story - it's possible that through better understanding of the "spiritual" aspect of Ki the source of their power are "yuuki" and "shouki". Therfore they don't eat abnormally.
I think it makes more sense to think of ki as something that defies the laws of energy conservation; being a spiritual energy, you can produce more just by having "more spirit". Of course, it's hard to have any sort of spirit when you're beaten up and physically exhausted.
I must disagree. If it comes from spirit more than from body then what's the point in mastering the SSJ forms? Vegeta noted that Goku trained his body (not spirit) to be able to exert more energy without the strain SSJ causes (also on the body). If Ki is purely spiritual why is body condition a factor here? Example - Goku caught viral infection on Yardrat. When the androids came he was heated and eager to fight them. Then he became furious about #20 killing the entire city population. At this point his "yuuki" and "shouki" aspects of ki should be blasting their way through making him helluva stronger thatn his usual SSJ form. But Piccolo notes that his KI should be a lot more than he displayed. I think that mixing the "genki" and "ki" spelling in the japanese original may indicates that the "genki" aspect of Ki is a deciding factor when it comes to energy levels. The lack of yuuki (bravery) could very well mean not willing to fight and the absence of shouki ("true character", or being in one's right mind) would mean that a warrior in unintentionally holding his punches to some degree. Please note that the energy output (scouter or kiri reading for example) in both of these cases wouldn't be different. The lack of genki however equals a lower energy level.
I do believe Ki in Dragon Ball has a biological aspect to it.
Afterall Cell could apparently gain his opponents abilities by obtaining samples from his opponents cells, so the ability to produce ki blasts lies in the cells as well.
I haven't thought of that. Good point. But that can be argued if this was due to his cells or the memory imprints given to Cell by Gero's computer.

Sorry for the errors. My dictionary in firefox is apparently not working at the moment and every word is highlited in . I'll try to fix that and edit this post later.

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Re: 14 questions - different topics

Post by Piccolo Daimao » Thu Apr 28, 2011 3:23 pm

Sorata wrote:
Goku also developed the "Super Kamehameha" while training with Mr. Popo, which is supposedly a stronger version of the standard Kamehameha. It's possible that the Kamehameha he uses after that point is always this upgraded version.
Never is it stated that his "Super" kamehameha is a stronger variant of this attack. He could be calling it Super just cause compared to his early stages of development he couldn't control his Ki very well thus pouring less ki to his energy attacks. Kid Gokus kamehamehas were nothing compared to the one he uses as an adult.
What? Logic would deduce that a Super Kamehameha would be even stronger than a regular Kamehameha (which Kuririn even points out). Why wouldn't it be stronger than a regular Kamehameha?

And this:
Daizenshuu 2 wrote:A Kamehameha that was superbly powered up due to Goku's training. It repelled Piccolo's attack and pulverized it.

An extra-strength version of the Kamehameha, which shatters even the moon.
Daizenshuu 7 wrote:A Kamehameha powered up through his training under God in the Heavenly Realm. It has enough power to deflect Piccolo's powerful Makousen.
Holden Caulfield in [b][i]The Catcher in the Rye[/i][/b] wrote:I hope to hell when I do die somebody has sense enough to just dump me in the river or something. Anything except sticking me in a goddam cemetery. People coming and putting a bunch of flowers on your stomach on Sunday, and all that crap. Who wants flowers when you're dead? Nobody.

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Bussani
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Re: 14 questions - different topics

Post by Bussani » Thu Apr 28, 2011 8:16 pm

Sorata wrote:But wasn't Tenshinhan using also his life force to power up his attack ?
What's the difference between ki and life force?
I'm aware of the spiritual aspect of Ki. Bot ones spirit is bonded with the body. I simply cannot agree that their Ki resides in their minds cause there's too much evidence that it's enchanced through physical (biological) means like pushups or enchanced gravity more than meditation.
I didn't say that ki resides in their mind, I said it's a spiritual energy. There's a difference. You're right that the body is a factor; your body and mind have to be in balance to put out the best ki. Not only that, but you can tell "That's the ki of a Namekian" or "That's the ki of a Super Saiyan," so yes, body definitely has an effect. I'm only saying that trying to explain it scientifically or in the sense of cells producing energy doesn't seem right to me.
Real or fictional energy - it doesn't matter to me. example - We could consider Ki as a multiplication of "normal" energy...
Turning some energy into lots of energy through multiplication is the same as breaking the "energy can't be created or destroyed" rule. But I don't think ki abides by that law anyway, so...
Good point. But if You consider that ones strenght comes entirely from his mind or spirit
Didn't say that.
You obviosly must ask yourself why the heck Saiyans eat this much? If it's spiritual energy they use why don't they eat like a normal guy?
It's hard to have fighting spirit when your stomach's rumbling, for one thing. What I may not have clarified before is that your body still needs basic things like food, water and air; it can't run on ki alone. But that doesn't necessarily mean that these nutrients directly turn into ki, either. It's like saying...I eat food and put out ideas, but it's not like the food I ate became ideas.
Going by SEGs definition i think most of their Ki comes from "genki". The Earthlings are a different story - it's possible that through better understanding of the "spiritual" aspect of Ki the source of their power are "yuuki" and "shouki". Therfore they don't eat abnormally.
But genki isn't necessarily something tangible, either. It's a rather vague Japanese term. Asking someone if they're "genki" is like asking them if they're in high spirits.
If Ki is purely spiritual why is body condition a factor here?
Ki can be a purely spiritual energy without taking body condition out of the equation. As Kaio-ken shows us, you can damage yourself if your body just can't handle the ki flowing through it.
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