The All-Purpose "Versus" Thread

[Hellspawn28]

I would say 616 Spider-Man is at least 21st Budokai level, I don't see him beating anyone in the 22nd Budokai. Tao could kill Spider-Man in a single punch.

He's BARELY on the series' SSj2 tier of power.

Even though a Toei-haxed and Enraged SSjin 2 Gohan couldn't do any damage to him?

If Gohan was SSj2 in Movie 10 then he would be weaker then he was in the Cell games since Vegeta said that Gohan was stronger then he was younger. Fat Buu will kill Movie 10 Broly with a simple ki blast, not even Majin Vegeta was strong enough to take down Fat Buu. Majin Vegeta was stated to be stronger then Cell from Piccolo IIRC?

[Kaboom]

Majin Vegeta was stated to be stronger then Cell from Piccolo IIRC?

Piccolo noted that Vegeta was "stronger than Gohan," though whether it was Gohan then or from 7 years ago wasn't made clear. Most likely it's the latter, since Vegeta was a match for SSj2 Goku who was likewise "stronger than Gohan when he defeated Cell."

[CatouttaHell]

Okay this is kind of a pseudo-versus but I don't want to disrupt the main forum with this:

Is it possible, at all, for Cell Games Piccolo to be equal to or weaker than #16? I'm toying with a 50x boost and trying to make stuff like Base Saiya-jins > Piccolo (I know, I know, that's not confirmed fact but I still believe it) work without bloating things too much. I mean, #16 and Kamiccolo was a pretty huge gap. Imperfect Cell was as strong as #16 and he tanked Piccolo's very strongest attack as if it was a tiny breeze of air. Piccolo reaching his level isn't really that bad.

[Casual Matt]

Spider-Man enters the 22nd Budokai.

Spidey is capable of lifting 15 tons, has the Spider-Sense, super agility and such. He's just in a cloth uniform, but the eyes of his mask are tinted.

Personally, I consider organic webshooters to be standard Spidey, but I know a lot of people don't, so that's up in the air. If he doesn't have organic webs, then he doesn't have them at all due to the 'no weapons' rule.

For what it's worth, Spidey doesn't have his Spider-Sense anymore, but he's compensated recently by getting some training from Shang-Chi, the Master of Kung Fu.

I wouldn't count him out either way, since Spidey has done some amazing things. He's recieved a couple of strength boosts over the years (two that I can think of off the top of my head) and after his most recent one he was shown to be able to pick up and throw a car pretty easily.

Okay, so maybe that's not that impressive by Dragon Ball standards, but the guy once beat Firelord by pummelling him unconcious, because he knew that if he stopped, he'd be killed. (And Firelord's stamina and durability are classified as "Godlike")

Yeah, I'm a huge Spidey fan. I've actually read pretty much all the mainstrean continuity Spidey books, so if anybody has any questions about the character, hit me up.

[Makaioshin]

Okay this is kind of a pseudo-versus but I don't want to disrupt the main forum with this:

Is it possible, at all, for Cell Games Piccolo to be equal to or weaker than #16? I'm toying with a 50x boost and trying to make stuff like Base Saiya-jins > Piccolo (I know, I know, that's not confirmed fact but I still believe it) work without bloating things too much. I mean, #16 and Kamiccolo was a pretty huge gap. Imperfect Cell was as strong as #16 and he tanked Piccolo's very strongest attack as if it was a tiny breeze of air. Piccolo reaching his level isn't really that bad.

While fighting the Cell Juniors, Piccolo was able to hold his ground. He may not have been fighting evenly with them like Trunks and Vegeta but he wasn't on the ground like the others. And if he can do that he should be stronger than #16.

[Kaboom]

Is it possible, at all, for Cell Games Piccolo to be equal to or weaker than #16?

It's very possible. Don't forget, Piccolo was already worn out and battered from fighting Android 17 before Cell even showed up. Then Cell already was smacking him around a bit before Piccolo whipped out the Light Grenade in desperation. So a fresh and full-power Piccolo using the same attack probably wouldn't be as ineffective.

Either way, a year or so in the Room of Spirit and Time would almost certainly rocket Piccolo ahead. His relatively good performance against the Cell Juniors suggests he gained a crap-ton of power... just not enough to do any good against Perfect Cell himself.

[CatouttaHell]

While fighting the Cell Juniors, Piccolo was able to hold his ground. He may not have been fighting evenly with them like Trunks and Vegeta but he wasn't on the ground like the others. And if he can do that he should be stronger than #16.

Yeah that's a great point and the main reason I'm questioning this. IMHO the Cell Juniors vs. Z-Senshi and Chibi Boo vs. Everyone scenarios kind of mirror each other. SSjin 3 Goku was incomprehensibly stronger than Base Vegeta and Chibi Boo was at least as strong as SSjin 3 Goku and yet Base Vegeta took multiple hits from Boo and IIRC landed at least one attack on him (not 100% sure about the manga but he did in the Anime at least.) Mr. Satan even managed to somehow survive a hit from Chibi Boo.

I'm not saying you're wrong because the Cell Juniors thing is possibly the best evidence for a strong Piccolo but it's just hard to really get anything concrete out of opponents like Cell Juniors because of their tendency to not take anyone seriously.

It's very possible. Don't forget, Piccolo was already worn out and battered from fighting Android 17 before Cell even showed up. Then Cell already was smacking him around a bit before Piccolo whipped out the Light Grenade in desperation. So a fresh and full-power Piccolo using the same attack probably wouldn't be as ineffective.

Either way, a year or so in the Room of Spirit and Time would almost certainly rocket Piccolo ahead. His relatively good performance against the Cell Juniors suggests he gained a crap-ton of power... just not enough to do any good against Perfect Cell himself.

Good point about Piccolo being worn out. I don't know if being weakened really weakens your Ki attacks that much; as SSjin 2 Gohan held out against SPC in the Kamehameha struggle despite his injury "halving" his power according to him. But yeah, Piccolo definitely took a hell of an exhausting beating by the time he used his Light Grenade.

It's hard to really take anything from the Cell Juniors fight because they operate by the same principles of Chibi Boo. If I were to ignore the Boo Arc I'd probably have Piccolo on par with SSjin Vegeta/Trunks (Post-RoSaT II) like I used to, just out of pure fanboyism, to be honest but (IMO) the Boo Arc implies that he's below the Base Saiya-jins so I'm forced to go by that.

[Hellspawn28]

Okay, so maybe that's not that impressive by Dragon Ball standards, but the guy once beat Firelord by pummelling him unconcious, because he knew that if he stopped, he'd be killed. (And Firelord's stamina and durability are classified as "Godlike")

That was a PIS fight. Firelord even admit that he could have killed Spidey if he wanted too, and the whole Firelord battle made no sense since Spider-Man would have killed himself when fighting him since Firelord's body is made of flames. And the symbiote is weak against heat.

[Z-Dragon]

Bojack (after full power) vs. Dabura

Bojack (after full power) vs. LSSJ Broly (movie 10)

Who wins and why?

[Casual Matt]

Okay, so maybe that's not that impressive by Dragon Ball standards, but the guy once beat Firelord by pummelling him unconcious, because he knew that if he stopped, he'd be killed. (And Firelord's stamina and durability are classified as "Godlike")

That was a PIS fight. Firelord even admit that he could have killed Spidey if he wanted too, and the whole Firelord battle made no sense since Spider-Man would have killed himself when fighting him since Firelord's body is made of flames. And the symbiote is weak against heat.

Spidey didn't have the Symbiote at the time, though. He was wearing a black suit but it was one of his cloth replicas, not the alien.

[Fox666]

Okay this is kind of a pseudo-versus but I don't want to disrupt the main forum with this:

Is it possible, at all, for Cell Games Piccolo to be equal to or weaker than #16? I'm toying with a 50x boost and trying to make stuff like Base Saiya-jins > Piccolo (I know, I know, that's not confirmed fact but I still believe it) work without bloating things too much. I mean, #16 and Kamiccolo was a pretty huge gap. Imperfect Cell was as strong as #16 and he tanked Piccolo's very strongest attack as if it was a tiny breeze of air. Piccolo reaching his level isn't really that bad.

You should think that during the Cell Games Vegeta already suprassed the 50% of Goku. So if you are gonna judge Piccolo's power based on his competence against the Cell Jr., it might be impossible to make him with 1/50 of Goku's power.

[Kaboom]

Bojack (after full power) vs. Dabura

They're probably about the same in power, but Dabra's got magic abilities to throw around as well, so I'd give it to him.

Bojack (after full power) vs. LSSJ Broly (movie 10)

As much as I dislike admitting it, Movie 10 Broly is on the lower end of the Super Saiyan 2 tier. Bojack gets ripped apart.

[CatouttaHell]

You should think that during the Cell Games Vegeta already suprassed the 50% of Goku. So if you are gonna judge Piccolo's power based on his competence against the Cell Jr., it might be impossible to make him with 1/50 of Goku's power.

It's possible, IMHO that the Cell Juniors were just fighting almost evenly with Vegeta, Trunks, and Piccolo just for fun and that they just weren't capable of suppressing themselves to the level of a barely standing Goku and the Earthlings (they were just semi-mindless kids after all.)

Bojack (after full power) vs. Dabura

Bojack (after full power) vs. LSSJ Broly (movie 10)

Who wins and why?

FP Bojack - 250,000,000,000

Dabra - 700,000,000,000
LSSjin Broli - 22,000,000,000,000

Bojack loses horribly in both scenarios IMO.

Piccolo vs Goten and Trunks who do you think wins and why?.

If it's Pre-RoSaT they stomp in SSjin, if it's Post-RoSaT they stomp in base. SSjin Goten and Trunks are stronger than #18 in base and are 50x stronger in SSjin while Piccolo isn't that far above #16 IMO.

Son Goten
SSjin (Post-RoSaT) - 1,800,000,000,000
Base (Post-RoSaT) - 36,000,000,000
SSjin - 32,000,000,000
Base - 640,000,000

Piccolo - 2,200,000,000

[SuperForteX]

SSjin Goten and Trunks are stronger than #18 in base

By this do you mean post ROSAT or pre?

[Kirby456]

Piccolo vs Goten and trunks both Post and pre who do you think wins?.

[Kaboom]

Before their Room of Spirit and Time session, Piccolo beats both the Super Saiyan boys easily. At the same time. Hardly even trying. Afterwards, he still beats both the Super Saiyan boys, with roughly 5% more difficulty than before. At the same time. Still hardly even trying.

Piccolo, mutha-fokkers.

[Kirby456]

Before their Room of Spirit and Time session, Piccolo beats both the Super Saiyan boys easily. At the same time. Hardly even trying. Afterwards, he still beats both the Super Saiyan boys, with roughly 5% more difficulty than before. At the same time. Still hardly even trying.

Piccolo, mutha-fokkers.

Thats what i think. But a lot of people say the Kids win because Gohan fought on par with Goten. Can you disprove this?. Also how are the Kids under Kamiccolo can you explain to me?. I'm not disagreeing with you i'd just like to here your thoughts on this.

[Kaboom]

Thats what i think. But a lot of people say the Kids win because Gohan fought on par with Goten. Can you disprove this?. Also how are the Kids under Piccolo can you explain to me?. I'm not disagreeing with you I'd just like to here your thoughts on this.

Well, a mere training spar with one's little brother is not a good indication of power. Gohan and Goten aren't actually trying to hurt each other in any way.

Furthermore, the boys as Super Saiyans were stronger than Android 18, but close enough to her that they were still at a disadvantage due to their Mighty Mask costume. So they can't be leaps and bounds ahead of her, otherwise the costume wouldn't mean anything.

Piccolo, meanwhile, was already stronger than 18 from the very moment he merged with Kami, as he was an even match for 17 who is also stronger than her. Since then, he spent a year in the Room of Spirit and Time, putting him at a level that was able to put up a decent fight against the Cell Juniors during the Cell Games, along with Vegeta and Trunks. And he's surely only continued getting stronger in the seven years since then.

Finally, when Gotenks' Fusion time ran out while he was inside Boo, it was Piccolo who automatically then came out on top as the dominant power, very strongly implying that he's stronger than either of the boys.

The boys have nothing on Piccolo. A mere week in the Room of Spirit and Time wouldn't change that. That's just my two cents.

[CatouttaHell]

By this do you mean post ROSAT or pre?

Base Goten (Post) >>> Piccolo >> Base Goten (Pre) > #18 IMO.

I believe the only reason Base Goten and Trunks were really losing to #18 was because of the costume. SSjin Goten sparred with SSjin Gohan and I'm a firm believer of Base Saiya-jins >>> Piccolo. I'm actually kind of back and forth on Base Gotenks/Goten/Trunks (Post) > SSjin Gotenks/Goten/Trunks (Pre) at this point because taking that gag seriously implies Piccolo can't tell the difference between Base Gotenks and SSjin 3 Gotenks. But either way I think Base Kids (Post) should be able to defeat Piccolo, at the very least if they team up. Just my view though.

Kaboom mentioned Piccolo coming out in Booccolo and that's pretty much the only thing directly pointing towards Base Kids < Piccolo IMO. But it doesn't necessarily have to be about power. It could be that Piccolo had more of an impact on the current Boo due to his intelligence and the Kids becoming useless now that they're not giving Boo a huge power boost. It could be that their power was drained from being a SSjin 3 fusion and they were weakened horribly. It could be that Toriyama liked the design. It could be that Boo secretly has an eight ball in his head that decides these things. Just remember that South Kaioshin was stated to be > Dai Kaioshin and yet Fat Boo took after the latter.

Not saying I'm correct but that's just my view on all of this stuff.

[Herms]

Piccolo noted that Vegeta was "stronger than Gohan," though whether it was Gohan then or from 7 years ago wasn't made clear.

No, Piccolo specifically notes that Vegeta is stronger than Gohan was back when Gohan fought Cell.