The All-Purpose "Versus" Thread

[Kaboom]

Piccolo noted that Vegeta was "stronger than Gohan," though whether it was Gohan then or from 7 years ago wasn't made clear.

No, Piccolo specifically notes that Vegeta is stronger than Gohan was back when Gohan fought Cell.

I see. Either Viz left it vague, or I'm thinking of Vegeta's comment to Goku instead.

[Super Saiyan Turlast x4]

^You're thinking about Vegeta's comment ("Pretty good. You're stronger than Gohan!") right there.

[Herms]

^You're thinking about Vegeta's comment ("Pretty good. You're stronger than Gohan!") right there.

Yeah, which is something Viz does leave vague: originally Vegeta says Goku is stronger than Gohan was "back then", so he's not talking about present day Gohan. But in Viz Piccolo does specify that Vegeta's stronger than Gohan was when he fought Cell.

[jackjack]

Piccolo vs Goten and trunks both Post and pre who do you think wins?.

The FPSSJ boys.

[Kirby456]

Thats what i think. But a lot of people say the Kids win because Gohan fought on par with Goten. Can you disprove this?. Also how are the Kids under Piccolo can you explain to me?. I'm not disagreeing with you I'd just like to here your thoughts on this.

Well, a mere training spar with one's little brother is not a good indication of power. Gohan and Goten aren't actually trying to hurt each other in any way.

Furthermore, the boys as Super Saiyans were stronger than Android 18, but close enough to her that they were still at a disadvantage due to their Mighty Mask costume. So they can't be leaps and bounds ahead of her, otherwise the costume wouldn't mean anything.

Piccolo, meanwhile, was already stronger than 18 from the very moment he merged with Kami, as he was an even match for 17 who is also stronger than her. Since then, he spent a year in the Room of Spirit and Time, putting him at a level that was able to put up a decent fight against the Cell Juniors during the Cell Games, along with Vegeta and Trunks. And he's surely only continued getting stronger in the seven years since then.

Finally, when Gotenks' Fusion time ran out while he was inside Boo, it was Piccolo who automatically then came out on top as the dominant power, very strongly implying that he's stronger than either of the boys.

The boys have nothing on Piccolo. A mere week in the Room of Spirit and Time wouldn't change that. That's just my two cents.

I think you put it well kind sir. Were do you have the POST ROSAT kids?.

Btw Cauotta Hell I know think Pan can beat Final Form Frieza 100 percent i have her equal to Piccolo Android Saga.

Off topic i bet I'm the only person here who likes Filler and the Garlic Jr Saga Lol!.

[mister yummy]

Meh, I've got both Goten and Trunks pre time room weaker than 100% Freeza, and that's at super saiya-jin. Post, they'd both trounce Freeza as super saiya-jins but couldn't touch Piccolo. Neither is as strong as SSJ Gohan at the Cell Games.

I have GT Pan, the day the ship takes off, at about 300,000 - 700,000 in a calm relaxed state, and as much as 200,000,000 (well, I say 20,000,000, but I go with the 12M Freeza and 15M Goku) when sufficiently pissed off. She could take out Freeza easily in a fit of rage. The galatic tour served as good training for her, and she got a lot stronger in that year. Even moreso fighting the evil dragons later on.

[SuperForteX]

Whenever you guys are finished with the current discussion, can you do Muten Roshi VS. Tao Pai Pai? I'm writing a thesis for Dragon Ball University, and this is something I've never really studied too closely.

[rereboy]

Muten Roshi is weaker than Taopaipai at the 21st Budokai but he is stronger than him at the 22nd.

In other words, when Muten Roshi is in shape, he is stronger.

In the 21st he had been relaxing for way too long. In the 22nd, since he knew that Goku was pretty strong, he pulled himself into shape.

As for cyborg Tao Pai Pai, he was probably stronger than Muten Roshi.

[CatouttaHell]

Yeah, what rereboy said. Non-buff Roshi was a bit stronger than 21st Tenkaichi Budokai, who got stronger after his various fights with the Red Ribbon Army but was nothing compared to Tao Pai Pai. It's unknown where Buff Roshi stands in all this. Roshi was weaker than Son Goku and Tenshinhan at the 22nd Tenkaichi Budokai but it was nothing compared to the gap they had on Tao Pai Pai so Roshi is stronger than him then.

Yamucha had trouble seeing Cyborg Tao Pai Pai's movements and I'm pretty sure 23rd Tenkaichi Budokai Yamucha >>> Roshi so Cyborg Tao Pai Pai is definitely stronger. If you go by the (very inaccurate for DB) V-Jump levels then Cyborg Tao Pai Pai is at 210 while Roshi is at 180 (WTF.)

[Kirby456]

How about Tien end of Z vs Android 18 who do you think wins?

Meh, I've got both Goten and Trunks pre time room weaker than 100% Freeza, and that's at super saiya-jin. Post, they'd both trounce Freeza as super saiya-jins but couldn't touch Piccolo. Neither is as strong as SSJ Gohan at the Cell Games.

I have GT Pan, the day the ship takes off, at about 300,000 - 700,000 in a calm relaxed state, and as much as 200,000,000 (well, I say 20,000,000, but I go with the 12M Freeza and 15M Goku) when sufficiently pissed off. She could take out Freeza easily in a fit of rage. The galatic tour served as good training for her, and she got a lot stronger in that year. Even moreso fighting the evil dragons later on.

That's pretty much what i say lol.

[CatouttaHell]

How about Tenshinhan end of Z vs Android 18 who do you think wins?.

Tenshinhan rips #18 into a thousand pieces IMO. End of Z is 10 years after the Boo Arc and in the Boo Arc Tenshinhan deflected a blast from Bootenks with the Kikoho. There's no reason to think that was a weak blast because Boo has infinite Ki and has no reason to conserve it either. Tenshinhan is a freaking BEAST, IMO.

[Casual Matt]

How about Tenshinhan end of Z vs Android 18 who do you think wins?.

Tenshinhan rips #18 into a thousand pieces IMO. End of Z is 10 years after the Boo Arc and in the Boo Arc Tenshinhan deflected a blast from Bootenks with the Kikoho. There's no reason to think that was a weak blast because Boo has infinite Ki and has no reason to conserve it either. Tenshinhan is a freaking BEAST, IMO.

Tenshinhan is a man of great talent and potential. He was terribly underutilized in the later parts of the series, however.

[Kaboom]

How about Tenshinhan end of Z vs Android 18 who do you think wins?

The way I see it, by the end of the series, Tenshinhan has definitely pulled ahead of Kuririn and broken the 100,000 mark. Whereas Android 18 is strong enough to go toe-to-toe with Super Saiyans. I have her at 275 million. So... Yep.

But to give some credit where credit is due, the Kikoho might actually injure her to some degree.

in the Boo Arc Tenshinhan deflected a blast from Bootenks with the Kikoho. There's no reason to think that was a weak blast because Boo has infinite Ki and has no reason to conserve it either.

It doesn't take much to cancel out a Ki blast, even a big one, with one of your own when it's from the side and not a direct clash. A battered, bleeding, and worn-down Piccolo did the same thing, when Freeza pushed Gohan's big angry giganto-blast back at him. Tenshinhan doing something similar in this case is no big feat. Not JUST because it was a tiny attack from Boo with practically no effort behind it (though that's undeniably a big part of it), but also because Tenshinhan evidently need to use the Kikoho to cancel it out.

So not only was Tenshinhan's attack not in direct competition or conflict with Boo's, but being the Kikoho it had a lot more sheer force behind it. Citing that as a testament to Tenshinhan's supposed supa-dupa-powa would be like... well, saying that a toddler must be super-strong because he knocked over a pro wrestler... with a mac truck.

[Super Saiyan Turlast x4]

I really don't think Boo's attack was that strong. If I remember correctly, that attack was used to vaporize Dende and Mr. Satan.

And aside from a Neo Ki-Ko-Ho landing a direct hit, I see no way Tien has a chance against #19, let alone #18.

[Kirby456]

I dont think Tien even surpassed Frieza Final Form. Tien gets stomped by 18 besides i believe Krillin > Tien. Tien just deflected Buus blast with a Tri Beam Blast the same with Semi Perfect Cell. Also didn't Yamcha say Krillin was the strongest Human?.

[CatouttaHell]

It doesn't take much to cancel out a Ki blast, even a big one, with one of your own when it's from the side and not a direct clash. A battered, bleeding, and worn-down Piccolo did the same thing, when Freeza pushed Gohan's big angry giganto-blast back at him. Tenshinhan doing something similar in this case is no big feat. Not JUST because it was a tiny attack from Boo with practically no effort behind it (though that's undeniably a big part of it), but also because Tenshinhan evidently need to use the Kikoho to cancel it out.

So not only was Tenshinhan's attack not in direct competition or conflict with Boo's, but being the Kikoho it had a lot more sheer force behind it. Citing that as a testament to Tenshinhan's supposed supa-dupa-powa would be like... well, saying that a toddler must be super-strong because he knocked over a pro wrestler... with a mac truck.

Cell Arc Tenshinhan could only hurt Semi-Perfect Cell with the Kikoho, Boo Arc Tenshinhan shot away a blast from Bootenks. I'm just trying to point out that that's a HUGE jump in power. I don't see any form of Cell being able to blast away a blast from Bootenks without a Kikoho personally.


Anyway, another versus, copy and pasting from a thread I made on Neoseeker:

LSSjin Broli (Multiverse) vs. GT Top Tiers

This is LSSjin Broli from Dragon Ball Multiverse. Suppose he got teleported to whatever universe GT takes place in after SSjin 3 Vegetto shot him into place and powered up one more time. How far would he go against these opponents:

1. SSjin 2 Goku
2. SSjin 3 Goku
3. Bebi Vegeta
4. Super Bebi Vegeta
5. SSjin 4 Goku
6. Yi Xing Long (Omega Shenron)
7. Super Yi Xing Long
8. SSjin 4 Gogeta

Keep in mind he was above SSjin 2 Vegetto after his last powerup in Multiverse and for this he does yet another powerup. It's unknown how Multiverse Vegetto compares to canon Vegetto, and GT power levels are such a contradictory mess that it's often just up to the viewer to choose what feats they believe, so this could be interesting.

NOTE: This Broli does NOT have the uber-haxed invulnerability of Multiverse Broli. And he has finally hit his limits and can't power up any further.

Edit: I have Multiverse Vegetto at 3x his Anime self randomly. Salagir doesn't seem to really believe in anyone getting REALLY big boosts so whatever.

With my GT Base Goku > Chibi Boo > SSjin Vegetto Mondo Toei Hax numbers Broli wouldn't get past SSjin 3 Goku

By my "normal" GT Base Goku > Chibi Boo Toei Hax numbers LSSjin Broli would rip any form of Goku and pretty much anybody else into pieces. I have SSjin 4 Gogeta 1.2x stronger than Broli but if Gogeta isn't aware about his fusion ending early he'll probably drag it out and defuse.

[SuperForteX]

There's one thing you guys have to consider with this Shin Kikoho of Tenshinhan's: Right before he used it, we saw Android No. 16 punch Cell right in the face. Cell didn't even move an inch, his head didn't even rock back. He utterly took No. 16's punch.

Then, Tenshinhan hit him with the Shin Kikoho, and Cell was physically pushed, and unable to resist the strength of this push. Also, after Cell came out of the crater, he had bruises and minor damage--a fact which many seem to forget.

It can be said then, that this Shin Kikoho does put out more power than No. 16's punch did. This is the same No. 16 who was significantly stronger than No.'s 17 and 18 to begin with.

Tenshinhan can also rapid-fire this techinque, the same way he did against Cell. Also, Cell can sense Ki, but was still taken by surprise. No. 17 and No. 18 can't sense ki. So Tenshinhan is even more likely to surprise either of them with the assault.

I think Tenshinhan wins, because he's just ruthless enough, with a truly dominant attack that can harm beings far stronger than himself. It may cost him his life energy, but if he gets No. 18 trapped in his Shin Kikoho, he could utterly destroy her.

[CatouttaHell]

I always did find stuff like the Shin Kikoho not being able to kill #17 or even Freeza to be completely absurd. At the very least, it applied enough force to push Semi-Perfect Cell, which is far more force than #16 could put out with a punch. Which means that the Shin Kikoho hits/pushes with far more force than #16 can punch and thus would insta-kill at least #17 and down. Semi-Perfect Cell was clearly damaged from it and in pain when it was hitting him IMO.

[Kirby456]

It doesn't take much to cancel out a Ki blast, even a big one, with one of your own when it's from the side and not a direct clash. A battered, bleeding, and worn-down Piccolo did the same thing, when Freeza pushed Gohan's big angry giganto-blast back at him. Tenshinhan doing something similar in this case is no big feat. Not JUST because it was a tiny attack from Boo with practically no effort behind it (though that's undeniably a big part of it), but also because Tenshinhan evidently need to use the Kikoho to cancel it out.

So not only was Tenshinhan's attack not in direct competition or conflict with Boo's, but being the Kikoho it had a lot more sheer force behind it. Citing that as a testament to Tenshinhan's supposed supa-dupa-powa would be like... well, saying that a toddler must be super-strong because he knocked over a pro wrestler... with a mac truck.

Cell Arc Tenshinhan could only hurt Semi-Perfect Cell with the Kikoho, Boo Arc Tenshinhan shot away a blast from Bootenks. I'm just trying to point out that that's a HUGE jump in power. I don't see any form of Cell being able to blast away a blast from Bootenks without a Kikoho personally.


Anyway, another versus, copy and pasting from a thread I made on Neoseeker:

LSSjin Broli (Multiverse) vs. GT Top Tiers

This is LSSjin Broli from Dragon Ball Multiverse. Suppose he got teleported to whatever universe GT takes place in after SSjin 3 Vegetto shot him into place and powered up one more time. How far would he go against these opponents:

1. SSjin 2 Goku
2. SSjin 3 Goku
3. Bebi Vegeta
4. Super Bebi Vegeta
5. SSjin 4 Goku
6. Yi Xing Long (Omega Shenron)
7. Super Yi Xing Long
8. SSjin 4 Gogeta

Keep in mind he was above SSjin 2 Vegetto after his last powerup in Multiverse and for this he does yet another powerup. It's unknown how Multiverse Vegetto compares to canon Vegetto, and GT power levels are such a contradictory mess that it's often just up to the viewer to choose what feats they believe, so this could be interesting.

NOTE: This Broli does NOT have the uber-haxed invulnerability of Multiverse Broli. And he has finally hit his limits and can't power up any further.

Edit: I have Multiverse Vegetto at 3x his Anime self randomly. Salagir doesn't seem to really believe in anyone getting REALLY big boosts so whatever.

With my GT Base Goku > Chibi Boo > SSjin Vegetto Mondo Toei Hax numbers Broli wouldn't get past SSjin 3 Goku

By my "normal" GT Base Goku > Chibi Boo Toei Hax numbers LSSjin Broli would rip any form of Goku and pretty much anybody else into pieces. I have SSjin 4 Gogeta 1.2x stronger than Broli but if Gogeta isn't aware about his fusion ending early he'll probably drag it out and defuse.

Tien just hit away Superbuus blast that does not mean he's at his level. Yamcha even said Krillin > Tien. Also Krillin has 18 two train with well Tien has Chiaotzu.

During the Android arc Tien was under the Base Androids and reached around 1millon and he trained hard by doing the math Tien would get around 10millon by the Buu saga. Also Krillin keept fighting with the Z Fighters well Tien retired i think this shows use Tien is weaker then Krillin. So theres no way Tien could go from 1millon two over Android 18s level i bet Tien trained as much as Piccolo. 18 one shots Tien inless Tien can use the Tri-Beam Cannon.

Then Semi Perfect Cell got up and kicked Tien away like he was nothing and Goku had two save him and Cell still absorbed 18.

[Kaboom]

The Kikoho is classified as a heavily focused and concentrated Kiai-type attack, which means it focuses primarily on having a lot of directed "pushing" power, more than something like burning, exploding, drilling, or what-not like most other Ki attacks do. Which means that even if Tenshinhan himself is far weaker than his opponent, and even if the amplified power of the Kikoho itself is as well, then they might still be affected by all that "pushing" force, even if the attack doesn't injure them. Just like what happened with Cell.

I like to think of using the Kikoho as something like swinging around a big foam baseball bat. The sheer size of the object itself makes it hit with a lot of force, and it may successfully knock someone over, but since it's made of foam it's not going to actually seriously hurt anybody. In the same way, the Kikoho is not some super-haxed attack that would allow Tenshinhan to insta-kill people who are hundreds or thousands or more times stronger than him. But it would be extremely useful for how we saw it used in the series: doing things like holding an enemy back and cancelling out attacks.

So long-story short, I see two main attributes of the Kikoho: Ki power and blunt force. If an opponent is too much stronger than Tenshinhan, then the former won't matter and won't do any lasting damage. But the massive amount of the latter still makes it useful in a variety of ways.

So yes, Tenshinhan's Kikoho did have more blunt force behind it than Android 16's punch. But that's due to the nature of the attack itself, and not necessarily Tenshninhan's own Ki level / Battle Power.