deleted

[Fox666]

deleted

[DanielGClapp]

Why is Kaioshin so darn weak and useless ??? Honestly, his whole brilliant scheme to let Gohans Ki be taken to Babidi so they would know where he is hiding was an epic fail. Some supreme ruler of the universe he is.............

Sorry about that, I just really don't like him, especially since I had high expectations when Piccolo was freaking out about him.

[ArchedThunder]

Why is Kaioshin so darn weak and useless ??? Honestly, his whole brilliant scheme to let Gohans Ki be taken to Babidi so they would know where he is hiding was an epic fail. Some supreme ruler of the universe he is.............

Sorry about that, I just really don't like him, especially since I had high expectations when Piccolo was freaking out about him.

Makes me wish Piccolo had kicked his arse.

[Fox666]

It seems like Dragon Ball was heavily inspired by Superman comics.

The protagonist is revealed to be from the strongest alien race in the universe, which he was sent to Earth as a baby the moment the planet was destroyed. Still there are 3 survivors from his race who threat the humans as trash.

You can also compare Freeza to Darkseid as a intergalatic overlord, or Cell to Brainiac as an artificial being.

[Eire]

@DanielGClapp
Don't blame Kaioshin, blame author.
I have no other explanation that it was a lack of idea for that character. Toriyama chose the simplest and the worst way to show how his heroes are strong- to put down everyone else. When I watched this for 1st time I expected that on some point the pure power points would become useless without other powers. Kaioshin had many ways to be developed- as an strategist, guide, advisor, someone with other powers not available to others. No. Only Goku's fist counts. That's the reason why this saga hurts.

[Michsi]

@DanielGClapp
Don't blame Kaioshin, blame author.
I have no other explanation that it was a lack of idea for that character. Toriyama chose the simplest and the worst way to show how his heroes are strong- to put down everyone else. When I watched this for 1st time I expected that on some point the pure power points would become useless without other powers. Kaioshin had many ways to be developed- as an strategist, guide, advisor, someone with other powers not available to others. No. Only Goku's fist counts. That's the reason why this saga hurts.

The problem is , the author himself makes fun of the Kaioshin's uselessness in-universe. So maybe it was deliberate?

[Bussani]

I wouldn't say Kaioshin is weak myself; everyone else is just too damn strong at that point. Useless, though...yeah, I can't argue with that. But it probably makes sense if you think about it. He was not only the youngest and least experienced of the Kaioshin to begin with, but had also been forced to do the jobs of five people ever since Buu's last rampage. He was a kid with no elders. It must have been pretty tough.

[Eire]

Michsi, even if so it killed all potential and moved our heroes a bit too close to male Mary Sues. It's a common trap- showing allies' weakness and stupidity is easier than showing power and cleverness of the hero. The same problem had Martin with Dany in "Song of Ice and Fire". Instead of showing her smartness he gives an impression that everyone lose his common sense when she is around. Besides, it's still a difference between "not useful in fight" and "good for nothing".

[Piccolo Daimao]

I wouldn't say Kaioshin is weak myself; everyone else is just too damn strong at that point. Useless, though...yeah, I can't argue with that. But it probably makes sense if you think about it. He was not only the youngest and least experienced of the Kaioshin to begin with, but had also been forced to do the jobs of five people ever since Buu's last rampage. He was a kid with no elders. It must have been pretty tough.

I agree. Talking of his plan to let Gohan's ki be taken to Bobbodi so he could track them, I suppose he just didn't know of any other options. They didn't know where his ship was on Earth, so the only thing they could do was track his minions, who they know would show up at the tournament to absorb an enormous amount of power. And one of the strongest guys that Kaioshin knew that weren't weak little Earthlings were Goku and his friends.

It's true that he was built up quite a lot, specifically by Piccolo forfeiting to him (I'm still angry about that stupidly out-of-character action; I don't care if it was his God side, Piccolo would not do that), but Toriyama, in true Toriyama fashion, just made him useless by putting the Super Saiyans at the forefront of everything again.

As for why Kaioshin didn't know about Goku's Super Saiyan 3, I suppose he just wasn't monitoring them after a certain point, perhaps because he was being occupied by Bobbodi. Of course, Super Saiyan 3 should've grabbed Kaioshin's attention immediately, but, again, perhaps he was too occupied by Bobbodi or not even in the afterlife at that moment to know about it.

Of course, the root of this comes down to Toriyama and his writing style. Here was a character with bags of potential, being at the top of the god hierachy, only for him to blindsided by the Saiyans again and spending the rest of the arc just going "OMG SSJS ARE SO STWONG O_0". Then, aside from being made out to be a neurotic (understandable, after all the shit Bobbodi and Boo put him and his now deceased colleagues) putz by the rest of the Saiyans, the reason given for his apparent incompetence is that he's the youngest and weakest of the Kaioshin. So he's a kid then. Who, even after he fuses, is still useless.

[DanielGClapp]

@Piccolo Daimo Agreed.

[Michsi]

Michsi, even if so it killed all potential and moved our heroes a bit too close to male Mary Sues. It's a common trap- showing allies' weakness and stupidity is easier than showing power and cleverness of the hero. The same problem had Martin with Dany in "Song of Ice and Fire". Instead of showing her smartness he gives an impression that everyone lose his common sense when she is around. Besides, it's still a difference between "not useful in fight" and "good for nothing".

Dany has so many positive qualities, if she were smart ( not saiying she is dumb , far from it )too , she'd be a Mary Sue.
It's obvious that she has gotten as far as she has in the story due to the perks that come with her heritage, BUT she makes a lot of mistakes and drives herself into a corner, so it's not as if the author rearranges the world around her so she succeeds.

And I'm not judging the Kaioshin as a warrior, since every other god has been out classed in strength by Goku and his friends pretty much from the moment they have been introduced, but as character in general. Piccolo was also made ot looks extremely weak for the sake of highlighting the saiyans but his efforts and role in th Buu arc was far more impressive and memorable than anything the Kaioshin attempted.
Even if you compare him with other gods:
Kami and King Kai served as mentors, teachers and guides, the Kaioshin wasn't given even that.
The author introduces the old Kaioshin, who does fulfill the role as mentor/teacher/guide and because of that it almost feels like he WANTED the reader to compare these two and make the young Kaioshin look bad?

When I meant "deliberatly making him useless" I wasn't refering to "the worf effect" like role, because his uselesness doesn't happen ONLY when he is around saiyans, but to his performance as a character in general.

The author makes this obvious by having the character's themselves point this fact out about him in the story and he admits it.

[Eire]

Dany is stupid. Stupid and stubborn like a cow. If she hadn't got shiny plot armour she would have been dead before finish of 1st book. But during the transaction with slave traders author ties to make her smart, but just made slave traders idiots, unable to mind their own business. That they have been run for years.

Back to the topic: I see the uselessness of Kaioshin but I ask what's the point of that. Especially after Piccolo action we could expect smart and clever plot and then... pufff... just kidding. I had no idea for him.

[Michsi]

Dany is stupid. Stupid and stubborn like a cow. If she hadn't got shiny plot armour she would have been dead before finish of 1st book. But during the transaction with slave traders author ties to make her smart, but just made slave traders idiots, unable to mind their own business. That they have been run for years.

Dany makes a lot of stupid mistakes, yes. But she is a 15 year old girl and the author makes it a point to have that aspect of her be evident.
I'd talk more about this, but these are spoilear for those who haven't come as far as the last book so I don't want to ruin it for anybody

OT :

Back to the topic: I see the uselessness of Kaioshin but I ask what's the point of that. Especially after Piccolo action we could expect smart and clever plot and then... pufff... just kidding. I had no idea for him.

I have no idea what the Toriyama wanted to do with him either. It really feels like he was just there to be made fun of after a certain point.

[DanielGClapp]

I have no idea what the Toriyama wanted to do with him either. It really feels like he was just there to be made fun of after a certain point.

I think Toriyama just wanted to make Super Saiyans look even stronger than they already were by comparing them to the supreme ruler of the universe. And a whole race of them, for that matter.

[Sshadow5001]

Why was freeza a planet broker? I mean he has people kill inhabitants of a planet and sells the planet on to others...What does he need money for? he could take whatever he wants whenever he wants.

[Michsi]

I have no idea what the Toriyama wanted to do with him either. It really feels like he was just there to be made fun of after a certain point.

I think Toriyama just wanted to make Super Saiyans look even stronger than they already were by comparing them to the supreme ruler of the universe. And a whole race of them, for that matter.

But that's just it, it wasn't just about his worth as a warrior. That was made clearl fairly early in the story, that he was nothing compared to them. I'm talkin about his worth as a high ranking deity.

Goku subtlely (not) points out that he was uselss by comparing him to the old Kaioshin.

[Fox666]

Why was freeza a planet broker? I mean he has people kill inhabitants of a planet and sells the planet on to others...What does he need money for? he could take whatever he wants whenever he wants.

Freeza can't do whatever he wants with force, there are people who would refuse to do what he wants no matter what (i.e. saiyans and namekians). I think the best comparison is that with a Mafia boss. The main objective is to gain influence and profit.

Freeza is not immortal anyway. They can poison his food or attack him while he is asleep*.

*The Kienzan seems to be rather a common type, Vegeta recognized the type of attack when Kuririn attacked Nappa and later used one of his own. But it may not be necessary to use this kind of special technique to kill Freeza, I suppose even him would be in trouble if you stick your whole arm inside his mouth and fire a Ki attack.

[Eire]

So Piccolo bowed to useless being. Didn't Toryiama realised that it looks just stupid? Kaioshin is useless, so what's the point of his introduction (besides showing how our guys are superior to everyone, that seems incredibly stupid).

Sshadow5001
Money are used to buy things. It's sometimes more convenient to buy a bottle of milk as needed, instead of keeping a cow
Edit: Taking forcefully isn't the best option in many cases. For example from the Witcher's book when protagonist wonder why dwarf's kingdoms was never attacked. He is explained that in such case they would flood all mines, destroy all technologies and leave, that people could have wars for rocks and donkey's skulls. Moreover conquering and maintaining domain isn't a piece of cake. Have nice time dealing with the leaders, solving their problems and being aware of the possibility of the revolt.

[Piccolo Daimao]

So Piccolo bowed to useless being. Didn't Toryiama realised that it looks just stupid? Kaioshin is useless, so what's the point of his introduction (besides showing how our guys are superior to everyone, that seems incredibly stupid).

Toriyama, who makes things up as he goes along, probably didn't know that he was going to make out Kaioshin to be completely useless as the story progressed. At that point, Kaioshin was built up to be this mysterious, strong guy who had something to do with those other mysterious musclebound weirdos with "M"s on their foreheads who can survive their necks being broken.