Daizenshuu 7, Goku's SSJ PL

[Hitiro]

As many people know Goku's powerlevel, as stated by Daizenshuu 7, as a SSJ was 150 million. But what begs the question is if this was stating his powerlevel as fresh or injured. When you look at the scans they provide a Goku standing against Frieza with a powerlevel of 3 million, in this image he is unhurt so we can assume that's his base when he is fresh. But when you look at the image for SSJ Goku he has clearly taken quite a beating an his clothes are battle damaged. So does his powerlevel of 150 million reflect him injured? Or when he is fresh? Unfortunately I can't read the Japanese so I myself don't know what it says below the statement that Goku's SSJ powerlevel is 150 million. We know that if you take beating you lose quite a bit of energy, Gohan even lost half of his while getting hit by Cell's blast to save Vegeta, so if Goku who was fresh at 3 million was injured then his powerlevel must have dropped. Unless SSJ has some sort of restoration ability to it when it is first activated to give you your base powerlevel back then Goku would have been considerably weaker than being fresh. If that's the case then does that mean that SSJ's multiplier which I always thought was 50 because Daizenshuu 7 has Goku at 3 million in base and 150 million in SSJ which I considered fresh is actually a lot higher than 50?

What's everyone's thoughts on this area? Am I over analyzing this? Can anybody clarify if it actually says 150 million is what Goku's SSJ PL would be if he was fresh? Either way Goku who was suppose to be 30 million higher than Frieza's powerlevel was fighting him pretty evenly despite having a more overwhelming powerlevel so if 150 million is Goku's fresh SSJ powerlevel then it would make more sense when Trunks takes him out pretty easily compared to Goku on Namek. If Goku had thought Frieza in SSJ while he was fresh on Namek perhaps the battle would have gone differently.

[Fox666]

The Daizenshuu also provided the battle power of 3,000,000 for Goku at the beggining of the fight and mentioned the Super Saiyan multiply the strength in 50 times, so 150,000,000 is Goku true strength rather than how much strength he could put at the time.

Perhaps the injuries is what allowed Freeza to fight Goku for a while despite the difference in battle power.

[dario03]

I could be wrong but I think in either the Super Exciting Guide and/or one of the daizenshuus it is stated that the SS1 multiplier is 50x (SS2 is 2 times SS1, and SS3 is 4 times SS2). I'm not sure if the 150,000,000 power level rating is based on that being his max or what it was when he was hurt. Though another possibility would be that Goku's base also jumped right before turning SS but they didn't include a rating for it. That way maybe even though he was hurt his power level could of been at what it was when the fight started (3,000,000).

But 150,000,000 being his max and him being a bit lower would fit with the whole being close to Freeza for a while. Then again maybe Goku just needed time to adjust to his new power, or this was a case where being 25% stronger than your opponent isn't a easy win (I've always thought Dragonball was a little incosistent on how much difference power levels make in fights).

[Hitiro]

The Daizenshuu also provided the battle power of 3,000,000 for Goku at the beggining of the fight and mentioned the Super Saiyan multiply the strength in 50 times, so 150,000,000 is Goku true strength rather than how much strength he could put at the time.

Perhaps the injuries is what allowed Freeza to fight Goku for a while despite the difference in battle power.

This is what I considered, I know that Goku was 3 million before the fight with Frieza I just didn't know whether or not the SSJ powerlevel was on about him being fresh or battle damaged. If you know for a fact that it mentioned his powerlevel was multiplied by 50 times then we can assume that 150 million was actually pointing to his powerlevel if he was fresh. I always assumed it was because Goku had already taken a beating that Frieza still put up quite a decent fight at his full power because Goku obviously lost enough power for it to be an even fight but still he had enough power to have the advantage.

[Fox666]

I could be wrong but I think in either the Super Exciting Guide and/or one of the daizenshuus it is stated that the SS1 multiplier is 50x (SS2 is 2 times SS1, and SS3 is 4 times SS2). I'm not sure if the 150,000,000 power level rating is based on that being his max or what it was when he was hurt. Though another possibility would be that Goku's base also jumped right before turning SS but they didn't include a rating for it. That way maybe even though he was hurt his power level could of been at what it was when the fight started (3,000,000).

The 50 times multiplier has been mentioned multiple times in different sources, including an interview with Toriyama.



In that section of the Daizenshuu, in Super Saiyan Goku description you can see it mentions the 50 times multiplier.

This is what I considered, I know that Goku was 3 million before the fight with Freeza I just didn't know whether or not the SSJ powerlevel was on about him being fresh or battle damaged. If you know for a fact that it mentioned his powerlevel was multiplied by 50 times then we can assume that 150 million was actually pointing to his powerlevel if he was fresh. I always assumed it was because Goku had already taken a beating that Freeza still put up quite a decent fight at his full power because Goku obviously lost enough power for it to be an even fight but still he had enough power to have the advantage.

Well, it's not like your battle power will fall because of fatigue, it's only that being exausted you will have a poor performance in the battle.

[Kaboom]

Even if the transformation miraculously restored Goku's power and stamina, it's not going to make his injuries go away. His battered and beaten body would probably still hold him back somewhat. It's a reasonable explanation, if one is really needed, for how Freeza could put up such an even fight.

[Saiga]

I thought Freeza actually putting up a fight was anime only? I havn't read the full fight in the manga but I was led to believe he got completely totaled by SS Goku.

[Hitiro]

I could be wrong but I think in either the Super Exciting Guide and/or one of the daizenshuus it is stated that the SS1 multiplier is 50x (SS2 is 2 times SS1, and SS3 is 4 times SS2). I'm not sure if the 150,000,000 power level rating is based on that being his max or what it was when he was hurt. Though another possibility would be that Goku's base also jumped right before turning SS but they didn't include a rating for it. That way maybe even though he was hurt his power level could of been at what it was when the fight started (3,000,000).

The 50 times multiplier has been mentioned multiple times in different sources, including an interview with Toriyama.



In that section of the Daizenshuu, in Super Saiyan Goku description you can see it mentions the 50 times multiplier.

This is what I considered, I know that Goku was 3 million before the fight with Freeza I just didn't know whether or not the SSJ powerlevel was on about him being fresh or battle damaged. If you know for a fact that it mentioned his powerlevel was multiplied by 50 times then we can assume that 150 million was actually pointing to his powerlevel if he was fresh. I always assumed it was because Goku had already taken a beating that Freeza still put up quite a decent fight at his full power because Goku obviously lost enough power for it to be an even fight but still he had enough power to have the advantage.

Well, it's not like your battle power will fall because of fatigue, it's only that being exausted you will have a poor performance in the battle.

I'm well aware that your battle power doesn't fall if your fatigue but it will fall if your injured, it has been mentioned numerous times, Gohan against Cell is a prime example as he told Goku that he had lost half of his power. So it stands to reason that Frieza, who was beating Goku around for quite a while, had knocked off some digits of his powerlevel.

I thought Freeza actually putting up a fight was anime only? I havn't read the full fight in the manga but I was led to believe he got completely totaled by SS Goku.

Both Goku and Frieza were exchanging blows in the Manga also. Not to the extent of the anime because they dragged the battle out for what seemed like ages but Frieza was still hitting Goku and you could tell that he felt one or two of those blows.

[dario03]

I thought Freeza actually putting up a fight was anime only? I havn't read the full fight in the manga but I was led to believe he got completely totaled by SS Goku.

I always thought so to because I had seen so many people say it but when I finally read that part of the manga it seemed to go just like the anime (but shorter).

[Fox666]

The first time Freeza attacked with 100% of his power Goku said he was disappointed at him. While Freeza managed to push Goku away so he could make his wish to Porunga, after that everything Freeza tried failed and Goku gave up on him.

Both Goku and Freeza were exchanging blows in the Manga also. Not to the extent of the anime because they dragged the battle out for what seemed like ages but Freeza was still hitting Goku and you could tell that he felt one or two of those blows.

Well, that's what I meant with "fatigue". Goku couldn't fight anymore, but his battle power wasn't lower, he simply did not had the composure to fight anymore.

There is some difference beetween weak characters and strong characters exausted/injured. For example, after Vegeta was hit by the Genki-Dama he could barely stand on his legs, but he still could pull some very destructive punches or withstood more damage.

As far as the manga goes, a Scouter never registered someone with a low battle power because he was injured or anything. In fact Freeza and his followers are surprised that the Earthlings can alter their readings. So if theorically someone used a Scouter after Vegeta was smashed by Gohan as an Oozaru, it would say "18,000" even if Vegeta was almost dead.

[Hitiro]

The first time Freeza attacked with 100% of his power Goku said he was disappointed at him. While Freeza managed to push Goku away so he could make his wish to Porunga, after that everything Freeza tried failed and Goku gave up on him.

Both Goku and Freeza were exchanging blows in the Manga also. Not to the extent of the anime because they dragged the battle out for what seemed like ages but Freeza was still hitting Goku and you could tell that he felt one or two of those blows.

Well, that's what I meant with "fatigue". Goku couldn't fight anymore, but his battle power wasn't lower, he simply did not had the composure to fight anymore.

There is some difference beetween weak characters and strong characters exausted/injured. For example, after Vegeta was hit by the Genki-Dama he could barely stand on his legs, but he still could pull some very destructive punches or withstood more damage.

As far as the manga goes, a Scouter never registered someone with a low battle power because he was injured or anything. In fact Freeza and his followers are surprised that the Earthlings can alter their readings. So if theorically someone used a Scouter after Vegeta was smashed by Gohan as an Oozaru, it would say "18,000" even if Vegeta was almost dead.

After Vegeta was hit by the Genki Dama he attempted to kill Gohan, Krillin and Goku in one area blast. If Vegeta's battle power hadn't substantially decreased they would have all died, you can't say that his battle power didn't decrease from being injured by the Genki Dama. Lets look at it this way, Vegeta could barely move so using an energy based attack would be the best way to deal with his enemies. A person who has 18,000 battle power or power level using an energy technique would wipe out two people with a power level of 1,000 and a person of 8,000.

When Vegeta used this energy technique to kill them they all survived. After failing to kill them he blames it on being too injured, but being too injured shouldn't effect the way a person manipulates ki except in the regard of hand gestures for moves like the Kamehameha. It stands to reason from this that being injured lowers your battle power as if Vegeta was critically injured to the point that his power level was much lower than theirs then it makes sense. I agree that being fatigued doesn't decrease your battle power but when your injured it does. All throughout the story when someone was being beaten they would always say that they were losing energy, while they don't refer to it as battle power they always point towards the fact that their energy, or power, being enormous is just their way of saying their battle power or power level.

Another good example which proves that injury decreases your power level or energy is when Recoome breaks Gohan's neck. Burter and Jeice say that the kid's got almost no energy left and breaking your neck will do that.

[Fox666]

Well, Gohan can control his Ki, so it's a different case than Vegeta. It kinds of confuses me why the battle power of someone who can control his Ki would drop during the course of a fight while someone who don't have his battle power almost like a signature or fingerprint.

I mean, Jheese says that Gohan is dead because his battle power is now zero, so he should not be used to someone dropping his battle power during a fight? Or am I overthinking it?

[Hitiro]

Well, Gohan can control his Ki, so it's a different case than Vegeta. It kinds of confuses me why the battle power of someone who can control his Ki would drop during the course of a fight while someone who don't have his battle power almost like a signature or fingerprint.

I mean, Jheese says that Gohan is dead because his battle power is now zero, so he should not be used to someone dropping his battle power during a fight? Or am I overthinking it?

Yes, Gohan can control his ki, but if he's injured then he will never be able to fight at his maximum battle power. Sure he'll be able to lower it so some other level if he wanted to hide and he would probably be able to lower it more efficiently because he would have lost the top end of his power. Trying to hold more energy than his body can handle however would kill him which is why it is important to be in top physical condition when your trying to use your full power. Vegeta originally couldn't control his ki before the Namek saga which is why it was a set battle power but injuries will obviously knock that down. We've seen it throughout dragonball where somebody is trying to get to a fight and their friends power levels have dropped because they are losing the fight. Even when Goku arrives on Namek he notes that Gohan and Krillin's power levels were dropping, almost to the point of death, which is why he hurried to the scene. Another example would be Gohan against Buu, he took a serious beating and almost died. Goku and the rest assumed he was dead because the couldn't sense his power anymore.

A prime example of a character who could manipulate his ki yet lose it in the middle of the fight was Nail. If you look at the manga after he lost his arm and regenerated it, Frieza noted that Nail lost quite a bit of energy from the regeneration. If being able to manipulate your ki could prevent you from losing energy in a battle there would be a lot more fights where the characters use energy attacks because while their body is damaged they would still have the same damage output from energy attacks. If this were true however then Vegeta would have effectively destroyed Goku, Krillin and Gohan because he would have been able to use an energy attack with his 18,000 battle power. Vegeta even notes that he would need to heal before he could destroy the planet because his injuries had obviously decreased his battle power to the extent that he wasn't a planet buster anymore.

[Bussani]

After Goku fires a full power Kamehameha and nukes the top portion of Cell to bits, Cell implies that Goku's ki also fell from using such an attack.

Chapter: 401 (DBZ 207), P12.1
Context: after Cell regenerates
Goku: “…But even your ki fell quite a bit from that.”
Cell: “Hmph, that goes for you too. Your hearts beating fast.”

Goku's ki is also said to fall after firing a Kaioken x20 Kamehameha, but given that high-level Kaiokens seem to destroy his body, I guess we can ignore that one. There's also this one:

Chapter: 325 (DBZ 131), P8.2-5
Goku: “I quit. [ ] As a backlash from you using your 100% power, you’ve passed your peak, and your ki is steadily dropping…I’m starting to think that there’s no point in fighting any more than this…”

But I suppose it could be argued that Freeza was a special case, and his ki could have been falling because of the strain bulking himself up puts on his body. Would Nail regenerating fall into a similar category?

Chapter: 286 (DBZ 92), P10.5
Context: after Nail regrows his arm
Freeza: “This is a surprise! So you can regenerate? But even though you’ve returned to normal, things will still be the same. Besides, it seems that you can’t recover your stamina. Your battle power has fallen from what it was before…”

So I'm not sure. Fatigue could affect battle power after a certain point. Freeza doesn't seem too surprised by Nail's battle power dropping due to damage/exertion.

As for what the topic was originally about, there was an interview with Toriyama that might reveal his thought process when it comes to the whole multiplication thing. He said that he'd originally thought that Goku as a Super Saiyan should be ten times what he was normally, but that this wouldn't make sense since Kaioken x20 hadn't worked against Freeza when he was using only half his power. Thus the 50x multiplier was established because it would make Goku more powerful than Freeza at full power, and with that in mind, I'm pretty sure it does mean 50 times his original "fresh" base power. If we combine that with Gohan's comment about his father's ki falling, we can probably assume that his power was indeed restored when he transformed. I don't think this necessarily has to be a healing effect, but something more like a shot of adrenaline.

[Fox666]

As for what the topic was originally about, there was an interview with Toriyama that might reveal his thought process when it comes to the whole multiplication thing. He said that he'd originally thought that Goku as a Super Saiyan should be ten times what he was normally, but that this wouldn't make sense since Kaioken x20 hadn't worked against Freeza when he was using only half his power. Thus the 50x multiplier was established because it would make Goku more powerful than Freeza at full power

That's not what he said.



"To be honest, the way I decided upon the Super Saiyan design was for such a... simple reason that it’d make you go "eh?". I only use one assistant (note 3), who has always helped me. My assistant always had to spend a lot of time blacking in Goku's hair (note 4), so the biggest reason was to save time, since if Goku became a Super Saiyan, his hair wouldn't have to be blacked in. What's more, this also had the effect that one could tell with a glance that Goku had gotten stronger, so it was killing two birds with one stone. At the time, it was made out that he was fifty times as strong when he became Super Saiyan, but that's a little extravagant. As far as my feelings as an author go, I think I drew it with the sense of it being a change of about ten times what he had been up until then."

Toriyama basically says it was estabilished [by him, I assume] at the time [he was making the chapters, I assume] it would multiply Goku power by 50 times, but that's hard to picture in his mind, so he always felt like it was 10 times.

[Hitiro]

After Goku fires a full power Kamehameha and nukes the top portion of Cell to bits, Cell implies that Goku's ki also fell from using such an attack.

Chapter: 401 (DBZ 207), P12.1
Context: after Cell regenerates
Goku: “…But even your ki fell quite a bit from that.”
Cell: “Hmph, that goes for you too. Your hearts beating fast.”

Goku's ki is also said to fall after firing a Kaioken x20 Kamehameha, but given that high-level Kaiokens seem to destroy his body, I guess we can ignore that one. There's also this one:

Chapter: 325 (DBZ 131), P8.2-5
Goku: “I quit. [ ] As a backlash from you using your 100% power, you’ve passed your peak, and your ki is steadily dropping…I’m starting to think that there’s no point in fighting any more than this…”

But I suppose it could be argued that Freeza was a special case, and his ki could have been falling because of the strain bulking himself up puts on his body. Would Nail regenerating fall into a similar category?

Chapter: 286 (DBZ 92), P10.5
Context: after Nail regrows his arm
Freeza: “This is a surprise! So you can regenerate? But even though you’ve returned to normal, things will still be the same. Besides, it seems that you can’t recover your stamina. Your battle power has fallen from what it was before…”

So I'm not sure. Fatigue could affect battle power after a certain point. Freeza doesn't seem too surprised by Nail's battle power dropping due to damage/exertion.

As for what the topic was originally about, there was an interview with Toriyama that might reveal his thought process when it comes to the whole multiplication thing. He said that he'd originally thought that Goku as a Super Saiyan should be ten times what he was normally, but that this wouldn't make sense since Kaioken x20 hadn't worked against Freeza when he was using only half his power. Thus the 50x multiplier was established because it would make Goku more powerful than Freeza at full power, and with that in mind, I'm pretty sure it does mean 50 times his original "fresh" base power. If we combine that with Gohan's comment about his father's ki falling, we can probably assume that his power was indeed restored when he transformed. I don't think this necessarily has to be a healing effect, but something more like a shot of adrenaline.

Not neccesarily, Goku's ki could have fallen but he could have still been above the 120 million Frieza had. For instance, if Goku had lost 500,000 Goku's base would have been 2,500,000. If you modify that with SSJ he would have been 125,000,000 which is 5 million more than Frieza's power level. As long as Goku hadn't lost more than 500,000 then He would have still been strong enough to take on Frieza. We also don't know how much of a gap between two individuals with power levels in the millions would be definitive enough for Goku to have the advantage. And we know from a few pages of the battle that Frieza was giving as good as he was getting during the fight so the power levels couldn't have been that far apart.

[Fox666]

After Goku fires a full power Kamehameha and nukes the top portion of Cell to bits, Cell implies that Goku's ki also fell from using such an attack.
(...)
Goku's ki is also said to fall after firing a Kaioken x20 Kamehameha, but given that high-level Kaiokens seem to destroy his body, I guess we can ignore that one. There's also this one:
(...)
But I suppose it could be argued that Freeza was a special case, and his ki could have been falling because of the strain bulking himself up puts on his body. Would Nail regenerating fall into a similar category?
(...)
So I'm not sure. Fatigue could affect battle power after a certain point. Freeza doesn't seem too surprised by Nail's battle power dropping due to damage/exertion.

To tell the truth that subject always confuse me.

The way Freeza's followers talk about battle powers is like it was some kind of fingerprint, it is the same the whole time. I mean, Vegeta and Nappa were restaining their strength for a while to the point the Earthlings couldn't they Vegeta was the strongest of the two, but since none of Freeza's men ever heard of controlling your power (except for Freeza and Ginyu) that means a Scouter should still pick 4,000 and 18,000 for them. Which of course brings the subject of how the Scouter and Earthlings sense the power in different ways...

[Hitiro]

After Goku fires a full power Kamehameha and nukes the top portion of Cell to bits, Cell implies that Goku's ki also fell from using such an attack.
(...)
Goku's ki is also said to fall after firing a Kaioken x20 Kamehameha, but given that high-level Kaiokens seem to destroy his body, I guess we can ignore that one. There's also this one:
(...)
But I suppose it could be argued that Freeza was a special case, and his ki could have been falling because of the strain bulking himself up puts on his body. Would Nail regenerating fall into a similar category?
(...)
So I'm not sure. Fatigue could affect battle power after a certain point. Freeza doesn't seem too surprised by Nail's battle power dropping due to damage/exertion.

To tell the truth that subject always confuse me.

The way Freeza's followers talk about battle powers is like it was some kind of fingerprint, it is the same the whole time. I mean, Vegeta and Nappa were restaining their strength for a while to the point the Earthlings couldn't they Vegeta was the strongest of the two, but since none of Freeza's men ever heard of controlling your power (except for Freeza and Ginyu) that means a Scouter should still pick 4,000 and 18,000 for them. Which of course brings the subject of how the Scouter and Earthlings sense the power in different ways...

It was my understanding that Vegeta and Nappa had their normal, usual power levels, and their max powerlevels. The difference between the fighters on Earth and the Saiyan's is that they can lower their power levels to whatever they want. Think of it kind of like a resting heartbeat, if Nappa had a resting powerlevel of 2,000 he could increase it to his maximum of 4,000 but he could never lower his powerlevel below 2,000. The Z warriors however have the ability to lower their powerlevels below their normal resting powerlevel.

[Saiga]

After Goku fires a full power Kamehameha and nukes the top portion of Cell to bits, Cell implies that Goku's ki also fell from using such an attack.
(...)
Goku's ki is also said to fall after firing a Kaioken x20 Kamehameha, but given that high-level Kaiokens seem to destroy his body, I guess we can ignore that one. There's also this one:
(...)
But I suppose it could be argued that Freeza was a special case, and his ki could have been falling because of the strain bulking himself up puts on his body. Would Nail regenerating fall into a similar category?
(...)
So I'm not sure. Fatigue could affect battle power after a certain point. Freeza doesn't seem too surprised by Nail's battle power dropping due to damage/exertion.

To tell the truth that subject always confuse me.

The way Freeza's followers talk about battle powers is like it was some kind of fingerprint, it is the same the whole time. I mean, Vegeta and Nappa were restaining their strength for a while to the point the Earthlings couldn't they Vegeta was the strongest of the two, but since none of Freeza's men ever heard of controlling your power (except for Freeza and Ginyu) that means a Scouter should still pick 4,000 and 18,000 for them. Which of course brings the subject of how the Scouter and Earthlings sense the power in different ways...

I wouldn't think the battle powers on the scouter are so rigid, though. Freeza's men wouldn't think of it as a fingerprint so much as one's battle power can be increased through training and getting stronger (and Saiyan near death boosts).

[Bussani]

Dammit, my mistake. That last paragraph of mine is mostly worthless, then.

Not neccesarily, Goku's ki could have fallen but he could have still been above the 120 million Freeza had. For instance, if Goku had lost 500,000 Goku's base would have been 2,500,000. If you modify that with SSJ he would have been 125,000,000 which is 5 million more than Freeza's power level. As long as Goku hadn't lost more than 500,000 then He would have still been strong enough to take on Freeza. We also don't know how much of a gap between two individuals with power levels in the millions would be definitive enough for Goku to have the advantage. And we know from a few pages of the battle that Freeza was giving as good as he was getting during the fight so the power levels couldn't have been that far apart.

That's also true. I think I only came to my other conclusion because I was taking something Toriyama didn't say into account. Oi...

The way Freeza's followers talk about battle powers is like it was some kind of fingerprint, it is the same the whole time. I mean, Vegeta and Nappa were restaining their strength for a while to the point the Earthlings couldn't they Vegeta was the strongest of the two, but since none of Freeza's men ever heard of controlling your power (except for Freeza and Ginyu) that means a Scouter should still pick 4,000 and 18,000 for them. Which of course brings the subject of how the Scouter and Earthlings sense the power in different ways...

I think what surprises them so much might be that the Earthlings can change their battle powers at will. I wouldn't be surprised if factors like injury, fatigue, illness, and being knocked unconscious could cause a person's numerical battle power to diminish, but that's different from suddenly raising it beyond what it was, or consciously lowering it down to almost nothing. After all, didn't Goku and Piccolo's battle powers go up just by removing their weighted clothes? Raditz was surprised by this, but he wasn't overly shocked until their ki started sky-rocketing through sheer effort and focus.