Should the 23rd Tenkaichi Budoukai Arc have been part of Z?

[PiccoloFan7289]

I have been thinking about it recently and in my opinion the 23rd Tenkaichi Budoukai Arc should have been the start of Z in the anime, with the Piccolo Daimao Arc being the final Arc of Dragon Ball . Here is my reasoning for it.

1. The first appearance of Goku, Kuririn, Bulma, etc... As full-grown adults.
2. The first Arc where the major characters appearances change.
3. Piccolo Daimao seemed like a better final villain for Dragon Ball than Piccolo Jr. (Not saying Piccolo Jr. was a bad villain though).
4. The Nintendo DS game Dragon Ball Z Attack of the Saiyans grouped the 23rd Tenkaichi Budoukai Arc as the beginning of Dragon Ball Z
5. Many Dragon Ball games only go up to the Piccolo Daimao Arc and don't include the 23rd Tenkaichi Budoukai Arc.

[Pokewhiz7]

I think every story arc should have been just "Dragon Ball" like it was in the manga.

[Gaffer Tape]

While I agree with Pokewhiz that I see no need for them to have changed the title at all, I see where they did change it as the perfect place. The story comes to such a solid conclusion at the end of the 23rd Tenkaichi Budoukai that Kame'sennin has to break the 4th wall and assure us it's not over. Imagine if that had been the first arc of Z, one that was so complete it might as well have ended right there. The Saiya-jin arc leads directly into the next arc, so it really feels more like a beginning. We're introduced to Gohan, the first of a generation and proof that we really have been away from these characters for a whole 5 years... and they've been away from each other. Their lives have changed. They've matured. And it's also the first arc to bring in sci-fi elements and start retconning all the previous fantasy elements. Concepts like the Saiya-jin, which would be a main focus for the rest of the series, are introduced here. Hell, it's almost amazing when you consider that Toei would have had no way of knowing half of the game-changing elements that this arc would contain when they decided to rename the series.

Also, the 23rd Budoukai is not the first time the characters' appearances changed. Yamucha cut his hair after the first arc, Blooma had changed her hair several times, and nearly all of the characters received significant design changes when they returned for the 22nd.

[Piccolo Daimao]

While I agree with Pokewhiz that I see no need for them to have changed the title at all, I see where they did change it as the perfect place. The story comes to such a solid conclusion at the end of the 23rd Tenkaichi Budoukai that Kame'sennin has to break the 4th wall and assure us it's not over. Imagine if that had been the first arc of Z, one that was so complete it might as well have ended right there. The Saiya-jin arc leads directly into the next arc, so it really feels more like a beginning. We're introduced to Gohan, the first of a generation and proof that we really have been away from these characters for a whole 5 years... and they've been away from each other. Their lives have changed. They've matured. And it's also the first arc to bring in sci-fi elements and start retconning all the previous fantasy elements. Concepts like the Saiya-jin, which would be a main focus for the rest of the series, are introduced here. Hell, it's almost amazing when you consider that Toei would have had no way of knowing half of the game-changing elements that this arc would contain when they decided to rename the series.

Also, the 23rd Budoukai is not the first time the characters' appearances changed. Yamucha cut his hair after the first arc, Blooma had changed her hair several times, and nearly all of the characters received significant design changes when they returned for the 22nd.

Agreed. I don't see any problem with the 23rd TB not being the start of Z in the anime. Furthermore, the art style visibly changed when the Saiyan arc began.

And besides, ending pre-Z DB at the Piccolo Daimaou arc would've left it at somewhat of a cliffhanger. I just think it was better and more natural to end DB at the 23rd TB arc, which put a solid bookend to it all, with Goku defeating Piccolo, finally winning the Tenkaichi Budoukai, the flashback to the prior events and then Goku flying off on Kinto'un with his new wife. While you may argue that Piccolo was still around and may fight Goku again, Z started off "five years later" (a bit more than the usual "three years" normally used for the gap between the tournaments), with a general shift in tone.

[Rocketman]

I really wish it was. As things are, the 23rd Tournament constantly gets ignored because it's not part of Z, but also doesn't have kid Goku so it's not 'really' part of original DB either.

[DBZGTKOSDH]

Dragon Ball Z's purpose was having Goku & Gohan having adventures together, IIRC

[Piccolo Daimao]

I really wish it was. As things are, the 23rd Tournament constantly gets ignored because it's not part of Z, but also doesn't have kid Goku so it's not 'really' part of original DB either.

The previous arcs were "ignored" too. Does that mean that they should be part of Z?

And just because Goku wasn't a child anymore doesn't mean that the 23rd TB isn't part of original DB anymore. I don't know where that logic comes from.

[Kaboom]

The existence of Gohan seems to be a more significant thing to draw the line with than Goku simply being taller.

Also, if one is viewing the two "halves" of the whole manga as self-contained stories, then the 23rd Tournament works better as an ending than the battle with King Piccolo. The former is pretty open-ended, while the latter leaves Goku with more of a specific goal ("King Piccolo has respawned, so you have to train for the express purpose of fighting him again.") Long story short, the 23rd Tournament is really just an extension of the King Piccolo arc anyway.

[Fox666]

I disagree, the 23rd Budokai time-skip is a greater change in the series compared to the birth of Gohan. And Ma Junia plays a significant hole after that, making it very strange to not be introduced in the "second part" of the story. In fact the arrival and Raditz and the end of the 23rd happen in the same Tankoubon.

But like it was already said, the series should not be split at all and remain just as Dragon Ball.

[Fin]

I really wish it was. As things are, the 23rd Tournament constantly gets ignored because it's not part of Z, but also doesn't have kid Goku so it's not 'really' part of original DB either.

The previous arcs were "ignored" too. Does that mean that they should be part of Z?

And just because Goku wasn't a child anymore doesn't mean that the 23rd TB isn't part of original DB anymore. I don't know where that logic comes from.

i think he's saying that it gets ignored because of it doesn't leap to people's mind when they think of either dragon ball or dragon ball z. dragon ball is the series where goku is a kid... oh, and that last storyline.

[Piccolo Daimao]

I really wish it was. As things are, the 23rd Tournament constantly gets ignored because it's not part of Z, but also doesn't have kid Goku so it's not 'really' part of original DB either.

The previous arcs were "ignored" too. Does that mean that they should be part of Z?

And just because Goku wasn't a child anymore doesn't mean that the 23rd TB isn't part of original DB anymore. I don't know where that logic comes from.

i think he's saying that it gets ignored because of it doesn't leap to people's mind when they think of either dragon ball or dragon ball z. dragon ball is the series where goku is a kid... oh, and that last storyline.

Well, to that, I say...oh well. It's not really that big of a deal, in my opinion.

[laserkid]

While Goku has "grown up" in the 23rd Tenka-ichi Budokai arc, the tone and feel of the arc fits MUCH better with the "Mystical Adventure" feel of Dragon Ball, and much less with the sciifi adventure feel of DBZ.

I am also of the mind a split never really should have happened, but given that it did - the split makes the perfect break from a fantasy adventure to a transition to a scifi one.

[DBZ Mick]

While I agree with Pokewhiz that I see no need for them to have changed the title at all, I see where they did change it as the perfect place. The story comes to such a solid conclusion at the end of the 23rd Tenkaichi Budoukai that Kame'sennin has to break the 4th wall and assure us it's not over. Imagine if that had been the first arc of Z, one that was so complete it might as well have ended right there. The Saiya-jin arc leads directly into the next arc, so it really feels more like a beginning. We're introduced to Gohan, the first of a generation and proof that we really have been away from these characters for a whole 5 years... and they've been away from each other. Their lives have changed. They've matured. And it's also the first arc to bring in sci-fi elements and start retconning all the previous fantasy elements. Concepts like the Saiya-jin, which would be a main focus for the rest of the series, are introduced here. Hell, it's almost amazing when you consider that Toei would have had no way of knowing half of the game-changing elements that this arc would contain when they decided to rename the series.

Also, the 23rd Budoukai is not the first time the characters' appearances changed. Yamucha cut his hair after the first arc, Blooma had changed her hair several times, and nearly all of the characters received significant design changes when they returned for the 22nd.

I agree with this. Very well put.

[Fox666]

While Goku has "grown up" in the 23rd Tenka-ichi Budokai arc, the tone and feel of the arc fits MUCH better with the "Mystical Adventure" feel of Dragon Ball, and much less with the sciifi adventure feel of DBZ.

I am also of the mind a split never really should have happened, but given that it did - the split makes the perfect break from a fantasy adventure to a transition to a scifi one.

I disagree. Toriyama mentioned in an interview that when Kami was introduced he already he tought of him being an alien. And that's why he and Piccolo talk in namekian during the 23rd Budokai.

So the sci-fi stuff was already there at this point.

[TripleRach]

While I agree with Pokewhiz that I see no need for them to have changed the title at all, I see where they did change it as the perfect place. The story comes to such a solid conclusion at the end of the 23rd Tenkaichi Budoukai that Kame'sennin has to break the 4th wall and assure us it's not over.

Definitely.

And also, if it that arc was part of Z, where exactly would the first series end?

You could end at Piccolo's death, but seeing as he coughed up the egg, you have a really somber cliffhanger where friends are dead, the Dragon Balls are seemingly gone forever, and the viewer knows the villain isn't completely defeated.

You could end after the introduction of God and Popo, which is much happier because everyone gets revived and preparations begin for the rematch with Piccolo. But you still have a cliffhanger ending.

There are no loose ends with the 23rd Budoukai ending. The villain is defeated (and will be defeated again if he acts up), everyone is alive and happy, and there are no traces of new threats in sight. There's nothing in sight, in fact, other than Gokuu and Chichi having a honeymoon.

[Piccolo Daimao]

While Goku has "grown up" in the 23rd Tenka-ichi Budokai arc, the tone and feel of the arc fits MUCH better with the "Mystical Adventure" feel of Dragon Ball, and much less with the sciifi adventure feel of DBZ.

I am also of the mind a split never really should have happened, but given that it did - the split makes the perfect break from a fantasy adventure to a transition to a scifi one.

I disagree. Toriyama mentioned in an interview that when Kami was introduced he already he tought of him being an alien. And that's why he and Piccolo talk in namekian during the 23rd Budokai.

So the sci-fi stuff was already there at this point.

That was a very, very minor point, and nothing else was even hinted at towards Piccolo and God being aliens (just like noting was really hinted at towards Goku being an alien just because of his tail or strength, merely being put down to his extraordinary talent as as martial artist). Just because they talked in an unknown language doesn't suggest that the series was moving towards a more sci-fi tone, since their entire backstory was mostly unknown anyway.

Here's what we knew: God was an Earthling whose purged evil somehow manifested into Daimaou, and who can literally materialize objects out of thin air (e.g. Dragon Balls). Piccolo is, well, the Great Demon King who laid waste to the planet years before, can spawn strange demons and those who are killed by him are stuck between the living world and the afterlife. And they were once one, so, within the realms of the story, it's not a massive surprise that they have their own language that only they can understand.

There's still a prominent feel of mysticism and basic martial arts in the 23rd TB, and only really pushed itself into the field of sci-fi in the Saiyan arc, kicking off with the revelation that Goku was an alien.

There's nothing in sight, in fact, other than Gokuu and Chichi having a honeymoon.

And even then, do we know if honeymoons exist in the DB world? In fact, marriage seems to be treated as merely a verbal statement, as I think the announcer and everyone else said that Goku and Chi-Chi were married after Goku accepted Chi-Chi's proposal. Not engaged, just flat-out married.

[jjgp1112]

As others have pointed out, the series did a complete 180 at the point where Z began. No longer were tournaments the focus, the universe was expanded to great degrees, and the overall tone was very different.

[Master Blaster]

While I agree with Pokewhiz that I see no need for them to have changed the title at all, I see where they did change it as the perfect place. The story comes to such a solid conclusion at the end of the 23rd Tenkaichi Budoukai that Kame'sennin has to break the 4th wall and assure us it's not over. Imagine if that had been the first arc of Z, one that was so complete it might as well have ended right there. The Saiya-jin arc leads directly into the next arc, so it really feels more like a beginning. We're introduced to Gohan, the first of a generation and proof that we really have been away from these characters for a whole 5 years... and they've been away from each other. Their lives have changed. They've matured. And it's also the first arc to bring in sci-fi elements and start retconning all the previous fantasy elements. Concepts like the Saiya-jin, which would be a main focus for the rest of the series, are introduced here. Hell, it's almost amazing when you consider that Toei would have had no way of knowing half of the game-changing elements that this arc would contain when they decided to rename the series.

Also, the 23rd Budoukai is not the first time the characters' appearances changed. Yamucha cut his hair after the first arc, Blooma had changed her hair several times, and nearly all of the characters received significant design changes when they returned for the 22nd.

I agree with this.