What makes a god, a god

[LiamKav]

A few people on here translate Kami into "god", which has always looked funny to me. As I said in another thread, the god of Earth is just some alien dude who turned up, was better than the evil guy who was also going for the job, and got given the title. And his replacement was chosen by a bunch of people who just happened to be hanging out at his home. (Seriously, did they not have to get Dende to submit a resume, or run his new role past Enma or anything?)

This is why I've never liked calling Kami "God". I understand it's (sort of) the translation, but "god" appears to carry a different context in English. Kami, Kaio, and Kaioshin seem to be closer to ruling royalty or something like that. It's not like they have any notable godly powers.

Piccolo Daimao responded with

"God" does appear to carry a different context in English, but I simply choose to take it as a shortened form of "God of Earth". If you're reading the series, you know that it's not the Judeo-Christian God, and "Kami" is still just "God" in Japanese anyway.

I would argue that it's not just the Judeo-Christian God, but in most cultures their gods have something that seperates them from mortal beings. The gods in DragonBall have nothing. They are not stronger. They don't have unique powers. Kaio actually dies, for Kami's sake.

I also saw this on the Wikipedia page for "Kami". Now, I know, Wikipedia, but it does have a citation, and if any of our Japanese scholars want to argue, I'd love to know if they have a different view:

Kami (神?) is the Japanese word for the spirits, natural forces, or essence in the Shinto faith. Although the word is sometimes translated as "god" or "deity", some Shinto scholars argue that such a translation can cause a misunderstanding of the term. The wide variety of usage of the word can be compared to the Sanskrit Deva and the Hebrew Elohim, which also refer to God, gods, angels or spirits.

So, what I guess I'm arguing, is that if "Kami" carries a completely different conotation of "god" than what that word implies in English, isn't it better to leave it untranslated, the same way most people do with attacks and things like that?

[Rocketman]

Pretty much any of the beings humanity has called gods would beat the absolute shit out of DB's "gods", and the Z fighters for that matter.

[Bussani]

As I said in another thread, the god of Earth is just some alien dude who turned up, was better than the evil guy who was also going for the job, and got given the title.

He was actually given the job because he managed to purge himself of all evil. The previous god turned him down at first because he wasn't pure enough. That's how the planetary gods work, at least.

I would argue that it's not just the Judeo-Christian God, but in most cultures their gods have something that seperates them from mortal beings. The gods in DragonBall have nothing. They are not stronger. They don't have unique powers. Kaio actually dies, for Kami's sake.

To be fair, deities can die in several religions. And just take a look at Journey to the West, which Dragon Ball was originally based on: Sun Wukong quickly grows in power to the point that he's able to beat up all of heaven just for snubbing him and was even invited into heaven just to placate him (although this only made things worse since they didn't give him a very good rank/position!). I think when you get down to it, the gods in Dragon Ball are stronger than most mortals--especially when you counter the Kaioshin, each of whom could supposedly kill Freeza with a single blow--but there are rare cases where they're surpassed by "mortals", and those are the guys the story focuses on.

So, what I guess I'm arguing, is that if "Kami" carries a completely different conotation of "god" than what that word implies in English, isn't it better to leave it untranslated, the same way most people do with attacks and things like that?

To me, "god" is already a pretty broad term and covers various deities with different levels of power, so I don't have much of a problem with it. Besides, I think it's pretty clear that the gods in Dragon Ball are supposed to be just that, given the way everyone reacts to news of Goku "training with God," or how Kuririn prays to "God" at one point and Piccolo points out that it's "just Dende".

[LiamKav]

[To me, "god" is already a pretty broad term and covers various deities with different levels of power, so I don't have much of a problem with it. Besides, I think it's pretty clear that the gods in Dragon Ball are supposed to be just that, given the way everyone reacts to news of Goku "training with God," or how Kuririn prays to "God" at one point and Piccolo points out that it's "just Dende".

When Goku did his first training with God though, he was much more mysterious. How would that conversation have worked around, say, the beginning of the Android saga? If Kuririn was praying to God, it's much harder to say "God is just God". I suppose "God is just an old alien dude who looks like a slug" would work...

[LiamKav]

[To me, "god" is already a pretty broad term and covers various deities with different levels of power, so I don't have much of a problem with it. Besides, I think it's pretty clear that the gods in Dragon Ball are supposed to be just that, given the way everyone reacts to news of Goku "training with God," or how Kuririn prays to "God" at one point and Piccolo points out that it's "just Dende".

When Goku did his first training with God though, he was much more mysterious. How would that conversation have worked around, say, the beginning of the Android saga? If Kuririn was praying to God, it's much harder to say "God is just God". I suppose "God is just an old alien dude who looks like a slug" would work...

Regarding the strength thing, I suppose it's because we never see Kaioshin do anything that shows him to be especially strong.

[Piccolo Daimao]

[To me, "god" is already a pretty broad term and covers various deities with different levels of power, so I don't have much of a problem with it. Besides, I think it's pretty clear that the gods in Dragon Ball are supposed to be just that, given the way everyone reacts to news of Goku "training with God," or how Kuririn prays to "God" at one point and Piccolo points out that it's "just Dende".

When Goku did his first training with God though, he was much more mysterious. How would that conversation have worked around, say, the beginning of the Android saga? If Kuririn was praying to God, it's much harder to say "God is just God". I suppose "God is just an old alien dude who looks like a slug" would work...

I suppose the difference is that the child of Katatz was never given an actual name, and was simply referred to by his title of "God of Earth". Dende had always been Dende, and they're so close to him, being a (comparatively weak, even at his first appearance) kid that they'd made friends with on Namek, that saying, "God is just Dende" makes sense.

But the point about the others' reactions to Gokuu running off saying, "Well, I'm off to train with God now!" still stands nonetheless. Just because his role sort of changes as the series progresses (to the point that he's pretty much a non-issue) doesn't mean that his name should automatically change.

Would you rather that they do what FUNimation did and say, "Kami, the God of Earth" (or "Kami, the Guardian of Earth", due to censorship), misleading viewers to think that "Kami" is the character's given name rather than his title? Isn't it just simpler to translate it as "God", since that's what "Kami" means, regardless of its out-of-universe connotations? As I aforementioned, people will understand that the characters in DB aren't talking about the Judeo-Christian God who's never even shown in physical form or whatever. "God" is merely a shortened form of "God of Earth".

And look at the characters' perspective. Even if the series was set on Mars or something, the god of that planet's title would be "God of Mars", but people would still just call him "God". He is their god, at the end of the day, so extraneously clarifying the fact that he's not a universal god by saying, "Hello, God of Mars" or "Hello, Lord God of Mars" would be asinine and unnecessary. Especially considering that the main heroes are on informal terms with the planet's god, actually knowing him personally.

[DBZGTKOSDH]

Well, before Goku & co. reached strength greater than him, Kami was the strongest being on Earth.

[rereboy]

It's never explained in detail but it seems that the gods in Dragon Ball actually have special powers. For example, the old Kami was able to restore the Earth's moon (without the dragon balls). I doubt he was able to do that with his own power or namekian abilities.
Also, even though its not canon, the Kaios were able to imprison Bojack and his gang, which also seems to hint at special godly powers since they were way weaker than Bojack.

However it also seems that their special godly powers are pretty useless (if not completely useless) in a full-out fight and mostly are only of use in their godly tasks. Therefore, if they aren't simply stronger than someone who isn't a god, that someone would probably be able to kick their godly asses.

This is mostly speculation, mind you, but I feel its a fair interpretation.

Besides that, as it has already been said, a god doesn't have to be all powerful to be a god. In most cultures that have existed in the world, gods don't have to be omnipotent, they can be killed and can even be surpassed by mortals.

[Puto]

Just because the word "God" is used does not necessarily mean it's referring to the Christian God. Disney's Hercules had gods, yet you don't see people claiming that just because they're the Greek gods and not the Christian God they should've called left them as "θεός", do you? It's the same kind of thing.

"I don't like the connotations of this word so I'll just leave it untranslated" is a nonsensical point of view. And frankly, you're misinterpreting the Wikipedia quote quite a bit. It doesn't carry a "complete different connotation as the English word" as you seem to be thinking it does. Though "Kami" sometimes can be used to refer to deities that aren't directly God where the translation falls a bit flat, these are completely different situations than what we see on Dragon Ball. The fact that the green dude from DB is directly referred to as Kami-sama (as opposed to simply being mentioned that 'he is a kami', no honorific), that people pray to him (as seen by the Kuririn quote) and so on, pretty much establishes that yes, the term IS being used in Dragon Ball in the exact same way as "God" is used in English. So yes, we should translate it to God. It's just that Dragon Ball is weird and has a very zaney view on religion (as proven by its representation of the afterlife as a bureaucratic mess, among other things).

[DBZGTKOSDH]

The reason I don't call Kami as God is because I also don't translate Daimao, (Dai) Kaio, (Dai) Kaioshin, Kame Sennin, etc.

[Gaffer Tape]

Especially given that so many mystical elements are later retconned, it can sometimes be hard to differentiate what's "godly" and what's just "alien." It's the same thing that goes on with Piccolo's origins in comparison to what we see him do early in the series. Is it Namekian or is it Mazoku? And I think sometimes people are more quick to dismiss it as alien because so much becomes alien. But like rereboy said, God was able to restore an entire planetary body under his jurisdiction of his own accord. He also has the power to possess human beings apparently, as he did with Shen. And not only that but somehow amp up such a meager-looking body to perform great martial arts. It's a bit iffier, but it is stated that his godhood allows him to view the planet as well... although, despite what Piccolo says to the contrary, it seems to be an ability Piccolo retains once merging with him.

I do, and always have, agreed that Dende becoming God was pretty stupid and made the job seem really easy to get and, honestly, pretty meaningless. "Oh, you can make dragon balls, a skill that is not exclusive to gods but just happened to be an unrelated skill possessed by your predecessor? Well, despite us not having any authority or reason to do so, you're hired!"

[The Time Traveller]

The reason I don't call Kami as God is because I also don't translate Daimao, (Dai) Kaio, (Dai) Kaioshin, Kame Sennin, etc.

Yeah, some things just look better untranslated.

[Bussani]

I do, and always have, agreed that Dende becoming God was pretty stupid and made the job seem really easy to get and, honestly, pretty meaningless. "Oh, you can make dragon balls, a skill that is not exclusive to gods but just happened to be an unrelated skill possessed by your predecessor? Well, despite us not having any authority or reason to do so, you're hired!"

I don't exactly disagree with what you're saying there, but the only rules we know about choosing another god are a) that they be pure of heart, and b) that the previous god approves of them. The manga tells us that Namekians are naturally pure hearted and that the Nameless Namekian only acquired the "worm of evil" due to the evils of humanity, so assuming Dende didn't acquire evil from Freeza's actions on Namek, he's probably an easy choice. And technically, Kamiccolo thinks it's a good idea, so that could count as approval from the previous god.

But yeah, it's still not like he needed to be Earth's god to make them dragon balls. I guess they were just killing two birds with one stone.

[Piccolo Daimao]

I do, and always have, agreed that Dende becoming God was pretty stupid and made the job seem really easy to get and, honestly, pretty meaningless. "Oh, you can make dragon balls, a skill that is not exclusive to gods but just happened to be an unrelated skill possessed by your predecessor? Well, despite us not having any authority or reason to do so, you're hired!"

I think I'm just going to go with the theory that the creator of the DBs' life force needs to be in a close enough proximity to sustain them (their energy or whatever), and since Earth doesn't actually need a properly appointed God anymore, they up and made him one out of convenience (Mr. Popo was lonely and Piccolo, who also happens to have a connection through Nail with him, can just coach him into the job anyway). I mean, as Bussani said, he's presumably pure-hearted and the previous God (inside Piccolo) was fine with him.

[DBZGTKOSDH]

Maybe there is a Namekian law that unless if you are the Saichouro of Namek, or the leader of another planet (e.x. Kami), you are not allowed to create Dragon Balls. That way, the power to create the Dragon Balls cannot be misused.

[Piccolo Daimao]

Maybe there is a Namekian law that unless if you are the Saichouro of Namek, or the leader of another planet (e.x. Kami), you are not allowed to create Dragon Balls. That way, the power to create the Dragon Balls cannot be misused.

Yeah, that's an interesting theory. Except that Gokuu and co. wouldn't have known about that.

[DBZGTKOSDH]

Yeah, that's an interesting theory. Except that Gokuu and co. wouldn't have known about that.

I guess Piccolo mentioned it during the 3-years training? He had Nail's memories, so maybe he told them about this?

[Piccolo Daimao]

Yeah, that's an interesting theory. Except that Gokuu and co. wouldn't have known about that.

I guess Piccolo mentioned it during the 3-years training? He had Nail's memories, so maybe he told them about this?

Oh yeah, maybe.

[LiamKav]

The reason I don't call Kami as God is because I also don't translate Daimao, (Dai) Kaio, (Dai) Kaioshin, Kame Sennin, etc.

I suppose it comes down to that. I'll accept that "Kami" in the sense that it's used in DragonBall means "God". But why should that get translated when other things don't? Does anyone translate "Kami", but not "Kaio"?

[JulieYBM]

I don't translate Kaiou/Kaiou'shin because those are titles specific to the series.