Dragon Box , Personal Verdict

[LordCrumb]

So I have finished watching Dragon Boxes 5,6 and 7 recently.

You might have read my previous thread about tracking down episodes with the US Music, so you might want to skip over this if you have 'heard it all before'.

While these are targeted to the 'Hard Core Dragon Ball Fans', I don't understand how they could leave out the US Music. One web page I read said they left it out as it would lower the bitrate of the video track. I find this bizarre, I believe they could have easily fit in a standard Dolby 2.0 track as well as the original Japanese Audio and English/Jap Music track. The Dragon Boxes are said to be the 'definitive' release of Dragon Ball Z, and it could have been, had they included the additional audio track.

While I like the Japanese music in some parts, I think the US music succeeds in making things feel more dramatic in a lot of the scenes. Goku turning SS3, Evil Buu wiping out all the population, Kid Buu destroying the earth.. some scenes just feel flat with the Japanese music. They both have their pros and cons, no doubt about it, and I can understand those who prefer the original music, maybe they were put off by the earlier sagas when they aired on Television, or they have another reason.

Now the picture, it's good to see Dragon Ball Z in 4:3 again, and the Dragon Box has a relatively sharp image compared to the original 4:3 DVDs, but like one of the threads on this forum has show, the colours are quite dull and washed out. Now I have never seen an original broadcast recording of what DBZ looked like when it first aired in Japan, but I have seen the whole series as it was originally broadcast here in New Zealand, and I don't remember them looking so faded. I think they could have adjusted them slightly to bring out the colours a little bit more.

"You can't please everyone" would be the general comment from Funimation, if I were to email them with my comments, but for me, if they had just included the US music, I would have agreed with Funimation that the Dragon Boxes would have been the 'definitive' (DVD) release of Dragon Ball Z.

I can see myself still buying Dragon Boxes 1-4, but only if they were around the $NZ50 price range, just to finish off the set, but for now I will stick with the Orange Bricks and the original DVD releases, until maybe Funimation decide how to continue the Blu-Ray releases, which, will have plenty of room to include all the audio options available.

[samuraix123]

I've read stuff like this it seems like a billion times But I'm at a 50/50 split on the subject. In my honest opinion these sets were not marketed toward dub fans.
sure it would have been great to get the US broadcast score but then again that would completely defeat the purpose of Funimation saying this was the original Japanese version! or something like that. I also understand the argument ''Well If the Japanese fans don't like the English version they could just switch it to Japanese'' this is indeed true. While I love my English voice cast, I'm so in love with the Japanese version as well. A friend of mine will not watch anything about Dragonball if it's in Japanese which is sad. I try to get him to watch the specials that haven't been released here in the states but he's like ''Nope if it's not in English it doesn't exist'' Ugh...) Well I'm rambling again here's hoping for Funimation to pick back up those level sets again.

[theawesomepossum777]

I feel for you man. It sucks to have someone picky like that. I mean, my brother used to be like that, but now he is cool with what ever version I watch. /offtopic

Back on topic, it would be really cool if they put the U.S music, but I think they did that on purpose. This is my theory, they didn't want the Orange Bricks to die out. If they put one definitive limited release that is superior in every way compared to the Orange Bricks, people lose interest in Funimation's well-selling release that is being sold in every retail location that sells dvds. It wouldn't be worth it. They didn't want to take the risk so they pretty much divided the consumers into two groups.

1. People who want to watch dbz like it was on Toonami.

2. People who were fine with the Kikuchi score and want to watch dbz as faithfully as possible.

Doing this, they get two somewhat well-selling home releases catering to almost every fan. Plus, they knew the Dragon Boxes were a limited release.

[MarcFBR]

One web page I read said they left it out as it would lower the bitrate of the video track. I find this bizarre, I believe they could have easily fit in a standard Dolby 2.0 track as well as the original Japanese Audio and English/Jap Music track.

It only seems bizarre because you don't know about this particular subject.

[Shinsa]

i agree with samuraix123.

I like both the Japanese and English dub. (dont see why people have to hate on the dub so much). I myself prefer it with the U.S. broadcast music. The Original Japanese music is good and all but its not great compared to other material out during that time period (even now since music is pretty universal) No offense to anyone that loves the Jap score. i do like it! its just not the greatest imo. Maybe it's because i didnt grow up with it but to me its hardly memorable other then the Cha La Head Cha La and We Gotta Power.

I also really liked Kai's music...however i dis regard it because the composer was caught with plagiarism and that in my eyes is not an artist and shouldn't be recognized.

But back on topic!

as much as i like the US music, Dragonbox is 100% Dragonball z's definitive collection as its the closest to its original airing in Japan and hey i respect that! I'm hoping Funimation releases DB,GT and the movies in a dragonbox form because i'd be all over it!

[LordCrumb]

One web page I read said they left it out as it would lower the bitrate of the video track. I find this bizarre, I believe they could have easily fit in a standard Dolby 2.0 track as well as the original Japanese Audio and English/Jap Music track.

It only seems bizarre because you don't know about this particular subject.

A standard lossy 2.0 track doesn't take up a lot of space. What they should have done is left off the English+Japanese Music track. If this set is for the 'Hard Core' fans, they probably don't watch it in English anyway, so having an English dub track that includes the Japanese music seems rather pointless.

[MarcFBR]

A standard lossy 2.0 track doesn't take up a lot of space. What they should have done is left off the English+Japanese Music track. If this set is for the 'Hard Core' fans, they probably don't watch it in English anyway, so having an English dub track that includes the Japanese music seems rather pointless.

Space is space.

Your comments belie your argument though.

You talk about how it isn't the definite release of the series because it left something out, but then you yourself talk about leaving something else out.

Rather than make a solid argument, you are effectively just complaining that you didn't get exactly what you want.

And they actually did go over that the original plan was to do it sub only. They tossed on what was considered the most up to date dub to have 'a' English track on it.

[OutlawTorn]

What they should have done is left off the English+Japanese Music track. If this set is for the 'Hard Core' fans, they probably don't watch it in English anyway, so having an English dub track that includes the Japanese music seems rather pointless.

Despite how others may view it, I don't associate "Hard Core" with "Japanese preference" as a dubbie can be just as much a "hard core" fan as a subbie. (for those who would argue otherwise, how does buying all of the season sets and then the complete run of Dragon Boxes not make one a "hard core" fan just because they don't prefer the Japanese?) It's clearly marketed towards fans of the Japanese version, but if it was meant solely for them, why even translate the Dragon Books?

I do agree that the best case scenario would have been to include the broadcast dub track, but if I had to choose between the two which soundtrack the dub track should contain, the Kikuchi score would get my vote without question. It's just, in my own opinion, better than the dub score.

But that doesn't mean the fans of the dub score don't deserve a high quality release and, hopefully, that happens sooner rather than later.

And they actually did go over that the original plan was to do it sub only. They tossed on what was considered the most up to date dub to have 'a' English track on it.

Is there a definitive source for this? I know there was that vague "afterthought" quote but was there a quote which explicitly stated it was intended to be sub only? It would certainly go against their marketing ploy with the trailers being narrated by the dub character voices and using dub memes.

[MarcFBR]

And they actually did go over that the original plan was to do it sub only. They tossed on what was considered the most up to date dub to have 'a' English track on it.

Is there a definitive source for this? I know there was that vague "afterthought" quote but was there a quote which explicitly stated it was intended to be sub only? It would certainly go against their marketing ploy with the trailers being narrated by the dub character voices and using dub memes.

As I recall it was never an official statement, but rather Lance commenting to people (it could very well have been before they even announced they were doing it that doing it sub only was cancelled. It's also just as possible that I'm imagining that it was Lance who said it, instead of say... no one.)

[penguintruth]

Your preference for the US music is irrelevant. It's not the real music for DBZ.

If you were a "hardcore" fan of the show, you would respect it for what it is, not what it isn't.

That being said, there probably wouldn't have been any harm putting the US music on the Dragon Boxes. It's not like the Japanese score makes that awful dub any better.

[LordCrumb]

A standard lossy 2.0 track doesn't take up a lot of space. What they should have done is left off the English+Japanese Music track. If this set is for the 'Hard Core' fans, they probably don't watch it in English anyway, so having an English dub track that includes the Japanese music seems rather pointless.

Space is space.

Your comments belie your argument though.

You talk about how it isn't the definite release of the series because it left something out, but then you yourself talk about leaving something else out.

Rather than make a solid argument, you are effectively just complaining that you didn't get exactly what you want.

And they actually did go over that the original plan was to do it sub only. They tossed on what was considered the most up to date dub to have 'a' English track on it.

I guess you could say that, but like I said, this was my own opinion of the Dragon Boxes, to make something a 'definitive' edition, it should include the original tracks.. the english + jap music is not something I would put down as an original track, as it never aired like that.

[MarcFBR]

I guess you could say that, but like I said, this was my own opinion of the Dragon Boxes, to make something a 'definitive' edition, it should include the original tracks.. the english + jap music is not something I would put down as an original track, as it never aired like that.

A good chunk of the sets aren't the 'original' dub audio in the first place.

[Taku128]

Your preference for the US music is irrelevant. It's not the real music for DBZ.

If you were a "hardcore" fan of the show, you would respect it for what it is, not what it isn't.

"Fuck your opinion, my opinion is the one true opinion!"

I never understood the "This past thing should effectively be erased from history by never including it ever again" stance some people seem to take. Yeah, changing the music for a dub was a shitty move, but it's still a part of the history of the show. Just because it you don't care for it doesn't change that fact.

The theatrical release of Blade Runner is a fucking crime, but that doesn't change the fact that it's a part of that movie's history, and I wouldn't want it removed from the 25th Anniversary Collection. In fact, having it there makes the Ultimate Cut just that much sweeter, as it lets you experience in one package the evolution of the movie as time passed and subsequent releases got closer and closer to Ridley Scott's original vision. Similarly, the dub with English music track is much more appreciable when you can also listen to the music that accompanied the dub back on Cartoon Network in the 90's and 00's, and also helps encapsulate it for future generations who at the start have it much better than we did back when the show was first airing in the States.

It also lets the people that do enjoy it the way they first saw it do just that. Including it as an option (assuming they can get the bit-rate worked out) doesn't affect you in any way except for that part of you that hates it when someone enjoys an aspect of the dub you loathe because you're such a fucking stuck up prick about your opinions.

Also I'm blaming you for why you can't get the original cuts of Star Wars on Blu-ray. After all, a true fan would appreciate Lucas' true vision, not the shitty version from the 70's and 80's from before we had the technology to have a CGI dinosaur poop on a CGI robot or whatever.

[LiamKav]

It's not like the Japanese score makes that awful dub any better.

Personally, I think the Japanese score improves the dubs tremendously, but obviously YMMV.

[OutlawTorn]

Your preference for the US music is irrelevant. It's not the real music for DBZ.

If you were a "hardcore" fan of the show, you would respect it for what it is, not what it isn't.

That being said, there probably wouldn't have been any harm putting the US music on the Dragon Boxes. It's not like the Japanese score makes that awful dub any better.

Yes, yes, the DBZ dub is awful, even us dubbies acknowledge that but it doesn't mean we don't have a right to enjoy it nonetheless. Since your opinion of the dub is very well noted, do you really need to include "awful" at every opportunity? Would it really hurt your point if you had just said "It's not like the Japanese score makes that dub any better"? It gets the same message across and it's not as blatantly insulting.

Besides, could it not be possible that LordCrumb might be a "hardcore" fan of the English broadcast dub? Whether you, or me, or a random DBZ fan shaking his fist at the FUNimation dub likes it or not, it is DBZ for most people in North America. We don't have the right to say to him "You're wrong for liking the Faulconer score! You're not hardcore!" That's just plain arrogant.

If the Faulconer score could have been included without any issues, it could only have helped the domestic Dragon Boxes, considering the lack of the score convinced people to not buy them, regardless of the superior video quality. More sales equals a greater probability of future Dragon Box releases. More Dragon Boxes can only be a good thing, right?

In my own personal opinion, a "hardcore" fan is anybody willing to spend their money to purchase the entire series, but the way some people throw it around it is almost as bad as saying "true fan." You know, when people can't think of anything to support their arguments so they throw out "only a true fan would..." to make it sound like their opinion is the only one that matters. I agree to disagree.

[johnboy1]

Your preference for the US music is irrelevant. It's not the real music for DBZ.

If you were a "hardcore" fan of the show, you would respect it for what it is, not what it isn't.

That being said, there probably wouldn't have been any harm putting the US music on the Dragon Boxes. It's not like the Japanese score makes that awful dub any better.

Yeah, sorry: you don't get to decide what the singular "real" music for DBZ is (as ridiculous as the statement is in the first place). The dub music is real music for DBZ. It was made by a legally contracted licensee for presentation with the English dub. DBZ with a dub and US music is still DBZ, and preferring it like that doesn't make you any less of a "hardcore" fan. Now get off your high horse.

[penguintruth]

You're right. I don't get to decide what the music is for DBZ.

Toei does. And what did Toei decide it was? Kikuchi's score.

This is not opinion. This is fact.

In my own personal opinion, a "hardcore" fan is anybody willing to spend their money to purchase the entire series, but the way some people throw it around it is almost as bad as saying "true fan." You know, when people can't think of anything to support their arguments so they throw out "only a true fan would..." to make it sound like their opinion is the only one that matters. I agree to disagree.

If you spend hundreds of dollars to watch a version of the show that in many ways isn't the show, it's a bit of a stretch to call yourself a fan of the show.

[johnboy1]

You're right. I don't get to decide what the music is for DBZ.

Toei does. And what did Toei decide it was? Kikuchi's score.

This is not opinion. This is fact.

Toei also entrusted FUNimation with the brand and let them replace the score. This is also fact. They could have stopped FUNi at any time, there is no possible way they could not have known about it, and they apparently didn't care. That right there tells you how sacred the original music is. Another company decided to replace it (TWICE for the early episodes) and Toei was like "whatevs". The FUNi dub, music and all, is a legally approved representation of Dragon Ball Z. That doesn't mean it's good, that doesn't mean you need to like it, but that does mean that the score is "real" music of DBZ. It's just not the original.

[penguintruth]

If it's not the music Toei made for the show, it's not the real music. They made the show. I don't care what permission they gave (two wrongs don't make a right) it's still defacing their product.

It's not the job of a licensor/dub studio to "improve" or change a show. They have a responsibility to depict the English language product as close to the original one as possible.

If they didn't think they could sell the show with the original music, they shouldn't have licensed it to begin with.

[johnboy1]

If it's not the music Toei made for the show, it's not the real music. They made the show. I don't care what permission they gave, it's still defacing their product.

No, it isn't. If there was something in the dub that ruffled Toei's feathers enough, they could have had it changed, but they didn't. The fact is that FUNi has aired it and released it multiple times over the years under license from Toei and there hasn't been a solitary peep of objection. In fact, it is not "defacement" specifically because Toei gave them the property to adapt as they would. The dub is "real" DBZ, and the dub score is "real" DBZ music and no number of condescending posts from you can change that.

Which brings me to a point from your previous post that I forgot to address.

If you spend hundreds of dollars to watch a version of the show that in many ways isn't the show, it's a bit of a stretch to call yourself a fan of the show.

You also don't get to decide what is and is not the show. The dub is the same show. In a slightly different form, perhaps, but still the same show. Last but not least, you have absolutely no say in what makes someone a fan.

Whenever this subject has come up over the years, you have always adopted an uncompromisingly elitist attitude, looking down your nose at people who prefer the dub music, as if they are somehow beneath you. I'm not a mod, but with all due respect to EX, I don't have to be one to tell you that such an attitude is not appreciated here or on any other civilized Internet community.