It starts as a rant, but then . . .

Li'l Lemmy · Post by **Li'l Lemmy** » Sun Aug 07, 2005 5:51 pm

It's unbelievable, some of the posts I see when I venture to other Dragonball-themed or anime forums. I mean, I'm sure they're not all bad, but . . . sheesh!

There was a post in particular that angered me more than just a little. I don't remember it word for word, but basically it goes along the lines of the Dragonball series being hollow and how anyone who watches it has an empty head. It went further to say that Dragonball isn't a real anime, that it's characters had no depth and that the whole thing just "flat-out sucks, and that's pretty much where I stopped reading and left.

An empty head? I know that everyone is entitled to his or her opinion . . . if Dragonball doesn't agree with you, that's fine . . . but sometimes I just think a person can take it too far. There's plenty of shows out there I'm not crazy about, but that doesn't mean I feel fit to badmouth and criticize the people who watch those shows simply because I don't. What the hell does that accomplish?

Hmm . . . I did feel as though I had a rant coming on, and I'm sure that just about every one of us could all launch into dramatic detail over the dozens of reasons that they couldn't be more wrong in both their attitudes toward the show and their behavior in general, but . . . I think I've seen that sort of thread here a few times before; there's really no need to make a duplicate.

So instead I'll pose this question . . . who would be your pick for the deepest, most layered character in the series and why? Somehow I think it would be interesting for people to read through what everyone's opinions would be, as opposed to staying angry about . . . well, you know. Here's some of what I think:

Goku? Well, he is the main character . . . but I don't necessarily think of Goku as exceptionally deep, because as strong or clever as he might become he generally stays the same no matter what. He does evolve somewhat, but his attitude is pretty solid throughout and it's perhaps the most easily recognized throughout all three series. Oddly enough I think I like it that way.

His firstborn could be another story altogether, of course. What more can be said of Gohan that most of us don't already know? This is merely my own opinion, of course, but I think it's actually pretty damned rewarding to watch his evolution from the Saiyain saga through to the very end of the Cell games, because it's just so rich with development. If I forget that I've seen it all before, it boggles my mind that a four-year-old who cries for his father and flees the battlefield could become as powerful and determined as Gohan becomes . . . and I'm not even talking about Super Saiyan 2, which I think is almost like a completely different Gohan from anything we see before or since.

I still don't know if Gohan's my pick, though. Vegeta goes through a lot of changes, and perhaps on a fundamentally different and even more difficult level than Gohan did . . . as in, Gohan did make a drastic transformation, but he was always generally good and kind; Vegeta actually had to cross over completely from pure evil to less evil to . . . well, almost good, and at times he was pretty freakin' heroic. He does a great deal of learning from beginning to end; a lot of it painful to his pride (and of course, his body), but all of it worth it in the end and culminating to make Vegeta who he is towards the very end of DBZ.

I think Piccolo has something to be said for himself, as well, especially since he's one of the characters who emerged from the original Dragonball. The man's had time to grow and change, but just how much changing did he do? Even though he is the reincarnation of evil, I don't necessarily see the Dragonball Piccolo as being the completely evil force that Vegeta is; it feels more as though his desire to avenge his father and control the world consumes him to the point where his hatred for Goku . . . the one force who factors heavily into both instances . . . is extremely instense, and gives off a very demonic aura. Small as it would be, I do think he does have a conscience no matter what, while Vegeta had to do a lot of soul-searching to find his.

Of course, we know why he changes and how. And while I still don't think the transformation is as unexpected as that of the Saiyan prince, it is very gradual and lasts almost through the Cell saga, since even as he fights alonside Goku and the others we still see signs that his mind is in crisis and the direction of his soul yet to be decided. ("I am a demon clansman!" he howled after the first battle with 17 and 18; "I'm just using you guys to help me take over the world!") Only in the Buu saga do we see what seems to be a Piccolo at rest with himself.

Well . . . heh, I guess I can't really choose after all. Anyway, feel free to disagree! Any picks?

(Li'l Lemmy, who went looking for other intelligent forums and got a reading of zero on his scouter.)

Son Goku · Post by **Son Goku** » Sun Aug 07, 2005 7:30 pm

*Clap Clap Clap*

Beautiful

(Lil' Lemmy, you sure do like making long posts, don't you

)

DBW · Post by **DBW** » Sun Aug 07, 2005 8:59 pm

I honestly don't think DragonBall characters have much depth, but that's what I love about them so much. It's like people you hang out with at work or at school. You generally don't sit down and discuss meaningful subjects during your lunch break, you just talk about whatever's on the surface and enjoy the conversation. Sometimes only knowing someone by their outward traits and quirks is more satisfying then actually knowing what makes them tick.

That's the real appeal of Goku to me. You know his personality, but you never really know just what the hell he's thinking. I think if DragonBall had depth to it, then it would essentially be trying to give meaning to the series. I don't like that idea. It just is what it is, you should enjoy the show on the level of simply having a good time.

Anyways, my personal favourite has always been Piccolo, although I have no clue why. I guess it has to do with his change in attitude when he trains Gohan, and how he approaches different battles and situations. I'm sure Toshio Furukawa being my all-time favourite voice actor has something to do with it too!

Li'l Lemmy · Post by **Li'l Lemmy** » Sun Aug 07, 2005 9:10 pm

That's actually a very interesting take on it. I do still think that some of the characters have a certain depth to them, but the way you've put it isn't necessarily a bad interpretation at all. Your idea that we can still look at all this objectively and in the end say that it's fiction and it's fun and that we should enjoy it for what it is . . . I think it keeps us from becoming too serious.

Goku does have a way of hiding his thoughts, doesn't he? And without really looking like he's trying to hide anything at all.

(Li'l Lemmy, in the discussion.)

EDIT: Your idea is even more fascinating than I originally gave it credit for. If realities crossed and I were given the chance to sit and actually talk with any of these characters, I'd remember your comparison about just "hanging out" with friends. Despite what I think about Dragonball characters having depth, I don't think I would go mystic on them and bombard them with deep meaning of life questions, because we never really hear about any of that when we watch Dragonball Z. It really is more along the lines of sit-and-enjoy.

Xyex · Post by **Xyex** » Mon Aug 08, 2005 5:40 am

Ya, with a lot of other shows they go into such depth with the characters that it sometimes feels like the characters are being analyzed. That's something that never really happens in DBZ. The show never cares to analyze the people it features, and in that way it does sort of feel more like you're just hanging out with friends than anything else. I never really had thought of that before...

Jerseymilk · Post by **Jerseymilk** » Mon Aug 08, 2005 8:16 am

I agree too. I know that when I first watched the series, I couldn't help but say to myself, "I really like these people." I would definitely want them as my friends in real life and I certainly wish I could hang out at that party at the end of the Buu saga.

I also like Piccolo, mainly for his talent at stragetics when fighting. Gohan as well would be my other favourite. He's so different from Goku in that he fights his destiny to battle and really doesn't like violence.

oponok · Post by **oponok** » Mon Aug 08, 2005 12:29 pm

I think the noncomplexity of the characters makes them all the more real. Two guys like Piccolo and Vegeta aren't going to talk semantics in a cafe somewhere, but dialogues and solid personalities such as those featured in the show give a more true to life feel, as these characters only noticeably change ever so slightly over years. Whereas other series feature characters who completely go from bad to good in one episode or one season because some wanker told them they're "evil and wrong" (in more words), it took Vegeta somewhere over a decade change, thanks in part to his hate toward Goku and his brilliantly subtle relationship with Gohan, nevermind the internal struggles he presented in the Namek Saga.

Entropy · Post by **Entropy** » Mon Aug 08, 2005 1:20 pm

I pretty much agree with DBW.
Son Goku is one of my favourite characters in all of fiction, simply because he is a big happy guy who likes to fight.

If you watch the show you get to know Goku through the medium of quirks and surface level conversation, not through consistent internal monologue.

I think it's an aspect of people thinking that unless the character is unshaven and full of angst doing unshaven, angst filled things the show has very little intellectual merit.

True Dragonball isn't Kant or Relativity, but neither are most things.
Evangelion, for instance, often held up as the intelligent man's anime, is actually very simplistic and covers theological and philosophical points from a fairly simple point of view. (Not to mention having outdated physics.)

oponok wrote: Whereas other series feature characters who completely go from bad to good in one episode or one season because some wanker told them they're "evil and wrong" (in more words), it took Vegeta somewhere over a decade change

Exactly, Vegeta actually changed slowly over time, through osmosis almost. Like a person actually would.
Rather than:
Character A: "blah, blah.............................blah, blah.....................evil is wrong"
Character B: "Due to your verbal essay, I will now stop killing children and hold down a nine to five job"

lost in thought · Post by **lost in thought** » Mon Aug 08, 2005 1:38 pm

DBW wrote:That's the real appeal of Goku to me. You know his personality, but you never really know just what the hell he's thinking. I think if DragonBall had depth to it, then it would essentially be trying to give meaning to the series. I don't like that idea. It just is what it is, you should enjoy the show on the level of simply having a good time.
Entropy wrote:If you watch the show you get to know Goku through the medium of quirks and surface level conversation, not through consistent internal monologue.

I think you guys have hit it right on the dot, there. To build upon that a little, for me, DragonBall(/Z) isn't so much about depth, as it finding out what a character is like based on their actions, personality, and beliefs. which in my opinion sets the series apart from many of the series' of its time.

laserkid · Post by **laserkid** » Mon Aug 08, 2005 2:08 pm

The characters aren't terribly complicated, but they feel real enough to me. Have you honestly not known a person who keeps trying over and over to do the right thing? Someone who may fail (or in the DBZ sense, die) several times, but keep at it anyway? Or perhaps you know someone whose desire to be the best enrages them every time they fail? Someone who eventually has to recognize he is no longer the best out there, and never will be?

Or perhaps you know someone who once was dedicated to hurting others to make themselves feel better about a life of hell they are living, that thanks to the kindness of another turned another cheek?

The Dragonball characters are archetypes. You're bound to know at least one of them in your life, especially considering the huge cast of characters.

Oh, and as for being empty headed, thats not true, because if you were empty headed and a Dragon Ball Z fan, you'd be busy packing it up with dreams!

Jerseymilk · Post by **Jerseymilk** » Mon Aug 08, 2005 5:12 pm

I actually remember reading a fan letter from a 12 year-old kid who loved DB and had Goku as his idol. He wanted to be as strong as Goku, so he started lifting weights. I can't remember how much he said he had worked up to benchpressing, just that it was a lot. And it was all because of being inspired by Goku's strength. Considering that to be successful at weight lifting, you need to stay healthy, this is one kid that you won't see running around on drugs,(I'm assuming he'll be smart enough not to take steroids here). He's actually doing something constructive and that's all thanks to DB. I think that's pretty cool.

Son Goku · Post by **Son Goku** » Mon Aug 08, 2005 6:26 pm

Jerseymilk wrote:I actually remember reading a fan letter from a 12 year-old kid who loved DB and had Goku as his idol. He wanted to be as strong as Goku, so he started lifting weights. I can't remember how much he said he had worked up to benchpressing, just that it was a lot. And it was all because of being inspired by Goku's strength. Considering that to be successful at weight lifting, you need to stay healthy, this is one kid that you won't see running around on drugs,(I'm assuming he'll be smart enough not to take steroids here). He's actually doing something constructive and that's all thanks to DB. I think that's pretty cool.

Wow, and all I do thanks to Dragonball is practice doing Kamehamehas and Burning Attacks around the house

(no one stares... really!

)

Caracal · Post by **Caracal** » Mon Aug 08, 2005 6:31 pm

My post may be a bit more of a rant than intended but frankly this has pissed me off.

So simply becuase I like the DragonBall series, I'm empty headed. Well that means I can't possibly like series like Cowboy bebop, Kenshin and Trigun... Oh wait, I do.

Sorry about that but frankly I to get so bloody annoyed at all this anti-DBZ rubbish, though I agree with Lemmy about people having their own opinions. And if DBZ is such a rubbish series, how come it was the number one series in Japan, the place where anime and manga comes from? Or the fact the series (to the best of my knowledge) still has populatiry there? Or the fact it inspired Oda, creator of Japan's current the number one manga and anime series One Piece? Other creators have also stated they were fans of Akira's work (how else can you explain the Kanzenban tribute pictures?)

But to bring the thread back on topic, while I do agree that DBZ is lacking in character development for most characters, I also agree that Gohan, Vegeta (though frankly I find him annoying) and Piccolo were developed well (though Vegeta and Gohan had more development than Piccolo. A shame IMO).

But heck, in my eyes DBZ is far better than the Pokemon anime. While it does get a bit samey after a while, it's nowhere near as bad as Pokemon. Yet we rarely hear people say how much that anime sucks (or at least I don't).

Jerseymilk · Post by **Jerseymilk** » Mon Aug 08, 2005 6:34 pm

Son Goku wrote:
Jerseymilk wrote:I actually remember reading a fan letter from a 12 year-old kid who loved DB and had Goku as his idol. He wanted to be as strong as Goku, so he started lifting weights. I can't remember how much he said he had worked up to benchpressing, just that it was a lot. And it was all because of being inspired by Goku's strength. Considering that to be successful at weight lifting, you need to stay healthy, this is one kid that you won't see running around on drugs,(I'm assuming he'll be smart enough not to take steroids here). He's actually doing something constructive and that's all thanks to DB. I think that's pretty cool.
Wow, and all I do thanks to Dragonball is practice doing Kamehamehas and Burning Attacks around the house (no one stares... really! )

Oh I've seen kids doing that before and I think it's adorable. If I was still a kid, you can bet I'd be acting out DB everyday with my friends. We were always acting out our most recently favourite show or movie like Star Wars or The Dark Crystal. I remember once hearing some kids around the corner from my house playing and suddenly starting to hear shouts of "Kamehameha". I couldn't help smiling and laughing to myself. And boy, those kids certainly did it enthusiastically too. Goku would be proud.^^

Caracal: I see people online and fans I've talked to bash Pokemon all the time. Just my own personal experiences anyway.

Caracal · Post by **Caracal** » Mon Aug 08, 2005 6:43 pm

Fair enough. But I can't say I've seen as much Pokemon bashing as I've seen DBZ bashing.

Son Goku · Post by **Son Goku** » Mon Aug 08, 2005 6:50 pm

Caracal wrote:Fair enough. But I can't say I've seen as much Pokemon bashing as I've seen DBZ bashing.

Yea, though when I bash Pokemon, I only bash the entire middle of the Jhoto arc (not the first two arcs, the beginning and end of the Jhoto arc, the Honen arc or the games (those games, my first games, were SOOO good.

) but yea, the middle went so slow lasting four years like that.

).

B-kun · Post by **B-kun** » Mon Aug 08, 2005 6:56 pm

Oh yes. I'm one of the few people my age (19) who like Pocket Monsters, and even I can't help but want to kill the person who decided to STRETCH OUT JOUTO LONG ENOUGH TO MAKE ME LOSE AND GAIN INTEREST IN THE SERIES AND STILL NOT MISS A THING. X_X

But anyway.

Jerseymilk · Post by **Jerseymilk** » Mon Aug 08, 2005 7:00 pm

Well it is a franchise designed to sell games and cards and stuff to the kids, so they're going to "milk it" for all it's worth. So of course that means stretching it out and a lot of repetitiveness. It still isn't as bad as Beyblade. The popularity of that show and toy has to be the best con job I've ever seen Takara pull on kids.

And then people criticize DB? Insanity. -_-

Son Goku · Post by **Son Goku** » Mon Aug 08, 2005 7:02 pm

Jerseymilk wrote:Well it is a franchise designed to sell games and cards and stuff to the kids, so they're going to "milk it" for all it's worth. So of course that means stretching it out and a lot of repetitiveness. It still isn't as bad as Beyblade. The popularity of that show and toy has to be the best con job I've ever seen Takara pull on kids.

The streching it out was more so they didn't have to pull another Orange Islands (getting ahead of the games in the story).

gallagtor · Post by **gallagtor** » Mon Aug 08, 2005 7:46 pm

It's really a shame, but a lot of anime fans act like total pricks when you like an anime that they happen to think "flat-out sucks" or "isn't real anime." It's not just Dragonball. I am called a "Narutard" on a regular basis on certain forums and IRC channels I go to. I generally try to avoid these elitist bastards.

Kanzenshuu

It starts as a rant, but then . . .

It starts as a rant, but then . . .

Yeah.

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