In defense of Dragon Ball

[*PINHEAD*]

It's been a while since I made my own thread (probably did it last time last summer). But last night, I was thinking about something that really bugged the hell out of me. As we all know, many (and by many, I mean the vast majority from what I've seen) fans of anime seem to bash Dragon Ball Z. Ya know, I can understand why, seeing as DBZ did have some ridiculous qualities and such. But when I hear people talking about how Dragon Ball Z isn't even a "real anime," or how DBZ is the worst anime ever, I get pretty ticked off.

One particular instance occured in a forum about Naruto. Everyone in the thread was talking about how "If Naruto becomes like Dragon Ball Z, I'd hate it forever!!!11!" Yet, they fail to realize that if it weren't for DBZ, Naruto wouldn't exist today, or at least the same way it does now. Naruto follows a lot of the same themes and plot devices as in DBZ (ki/chakra, Goku-Vegeta/Naruto-Sasuke, long battles, etc). Certainly Naruto is more developed plot-wise, but when they deny Dragon Ball even the credit where credit is due...ugh.

It seems that today, Dragon Ball is looked down upon by many people, anime/manga fans or not. I'm sure you all know everything I've said in this post, but I would like for this thread to discuss how Dragon Ball is downplayed so much in today's anime/manga community, and other related topics, such as reasons why it is and why it shouldn't be.

[tarsonis]

I think it's just easy to say that people are morons, for juding an entire 291-episode series based on either someone else's opinion without even forming their own, or based upon watching just a few episodes which were probably not even in the original Japanese.

I think the "Dear Fanboys" article sums it up pretty nicely.

[Jerseymilk]

Naruto is exactly like DBZ. Hypocritical morons. -_-

[Super Saiyan Turlast x4]

Naruto is cool, but it is not exactly like Dbz in my opinion.

[Li'l Lemmy]

I did try to avoid expressing the whole of my negative feelings toward "people against Dragonball" earlier today, but if there's going to be a post like this after all then it looks like I get to let myself go.

Pinhead, I'm with you 100% I don't get it either, and it makes me angry.

I don't know what is with these people, but with the introduction of newer animes it seems to be increasingly so that in the case of something like Dragonball and Dragonball Z you're going to either like or dislike it, and a lot of times it seems that both sides will to go to extremes to expatiate upon and defend their own viewpoint.

I'm of the first group, certainly. I'm a huge fan, and I like to express why every now and again. I babble, I ramble, and so on and so forth, and I like being in the company of other people who do the same . . . but I don't see any of us going out of our way to explain why this show is better than others, or to pick on a particular show and say it isn't anywhere near as good as Dragonball. We don't have any grand mission to champion Dragonball to the entire world, because it's usually enough that we already think it's good, and we're content with that.

Nonetheless, there are always those people who think it's important that the world at large is aware that they think Dragonball is not in the same class as more recent anime, or that it simply isn't anime at all . . . it's this in particular that I don't understand. It was made in Japan. It's animated. What more does a show have to do?

Maybe this has something to do with it. Two or three years ago, Dragonball was insanely popular to the point of becoming its own religion. It's still popular today, but perhaps not in quite the same way; things have died down a little, and there's a lot more anime to choose from today. What I think some people are doing, however, is confusing this surge of anime properties (some of which are becoming popular in their own right) for the Death of Dragonball, and so now we get these vultures who see something they think is dying and they come along to pick at the bones.

Then again, in all honesty . . . I don't know what the hell is going on. I can only guess. But make whatever you want to out of the Dragonball series; I still think it deserves far more respect than it tends to get lately, and I suppose we'll just have to ignore the naysayers for a while longer.

Sigh.


(Li'l Lemmy, Dragonball fan.)

[DBW]

Unfortunately, DragonBall was worked up as a fad here in North America, and naturally when fads die they die pretty hard. If you were to cruise around town rocking out to REO Speedwagon, you'd probably get made fun of, or at least get some strange looks. Likewise, when I go around saying I love DragonBall, the typical reaction I get is "oh, that's stupid, I stopped watching that show back in grade 8" or something along those lines. It's cool to hate on DragonBall becasue it' not popular anymore, and having any association with it will therefore make you unpopular.

And this is where we get the raging Naruto fans. It's undeniable, I watched Naruto for a little over 100 episodes, and can confirm that it's *almost identical* to DragonBall in the story-telling and use of plot elements. But now that DragonBall is no longer popular, most Naruto fans seem to be on some kind of mission to prove that Naruto's nothing like DragonBall in any way whatsoever. This is exactly why their arguments are so fickle, since they usually just scrape the bottom of the barrel to find any insane reasons why DragonBall sucks and Naruto doesn't. They're just trying to build up a wall between the two series.

But what's the reality here? Listen up Naruto fans, 'cause this is gonna hurt... DragonBall was created in 1984 and is 100% original! (ok, yeah, it parodies Journey to the West and such, but you know what I mean). The reason why I got tired of Naruto is because I'd already seen all these plot divices put into use in DragonBall, and it was becoming old-hat. When I first watched DragonBall, it was all exciting and new, and that's what carried me through the series.

Now, I'm not trying to bash Naruto, because it's still an *excellent* series (Shounen Jump's #4 top series the last time I checked). It simply became tiring for me because I'd thoroughly watched DragonBall beforehand, and wasn't interested in seeing another similar series. But if you've never seen DragonBall (or even if you have), I can perfectly understand someone loving Naruto in the same way I love DragonBall. I respect the series and it's fans, and it's just a shame they can't show the same kind of respect in return.

Some other typical DragonBall complaints:

Staring matches - The anime was produced weekly based off a weekly manga. They had to lengthen scenes and add filler to keep the gap between the anime and the manga. It sucks, but it had to be done.

Poor animation - Occasionally, but after watching the Dragon Boxes through I realized how rich and detailed the majority of the animation really was. Do a direct comparison to any other series, and you'll see the animation of DragonBall is actually quite extravagant and definately stands the test of time.

Repetative - Yes, it's repetative, but Toriyama masked it very well with constant changes to setting, plot and characters. Things are always happening, and stuff is always changing, so it always seems at the very least interesting and intriguing (especially to a first-time viewer).

So-and-so is stupid/retarded/gay/etc. - This is your problem, not DragonBall's. If you don't like a particular aspect of the series, it doesn't mean that it's the worst show ever made, it simply means that it's not to your taste.

But when I hear people talking about how Dragon Ball Z isn't even a "real anime," or how DBZ is the worst anime ever, I get pretty ticked off.

And if you asked these same people what "real anime" is, they'd probably list off series from within the last 3 years. Here's some bedtime reading for them...

One Piece: Hugely influenced by Akira Toriyama and DragonBall.
Naruto: Influenced by Akira Toriyama, and actually takes cues straight from DragonBall.
Inu Yasha: Rumiko Takahashi's first hit manga "Urusei Yatsura" was struggling to find an audience until the anime starting airing after Dr. Slump on Fuji TV, and suddenly found an audience and became a huge success (thank you Toriyama).

Toriyama and DragonBall have also influenced countless other manga artists, so all these "DragonBall isn't real anime" people should probably take a history lesson in anime and respect the roots of the series they're currently watching.

[Super Saiyan Turlast x4]

Nothing can compare with DragonBall Z. The closest thing to that was Ronin Warriors and that was a long time ago.

If you consider being a DBZ hater be one, but don't sound stupid trying to prove a point. That's all I will say for now

[Son Goku]

Inu Yasha: Rumiko Takahashi's first hit manga "Urusei Yatsura" was struggling to find an audience until the anime starting airing after Dr. Slump on Fuji TV, and suddenly found an audience and became a huge success (thank you Toriyama).

Speaking of Dr. Slump, why the hell hasn't this classic anime been licenced by a current company?

[lost in thought]

I can't even properly comment on this... I've thought about it long and hard, since reading the topic, and I think I have almost no more to say on the subject...

One part of this short-sighted arguement that I just can't stand, though, is the people who say that the series is bad because of the art-style. I just really can't see it though. DragonBall is a series I love, because of its art... I mean, have you ever just taken a moment to look at the backgrounds, and not the characters? Toriyama-sensei's art is distinct, and beautiful. It has a look and feel, that to me speaks volumes about his views, and concepts about nature, and in general, the art is fitting.
I may be biased about new work (I am,) but I don't think the new clean-cut, crisp animation gives us the distinct visuals, like we have them in DragonBall. Even Ronin Warriors (as Turlast mentioned earlier,) has some of these same qualities, and I really just can't express how much it angers me, not just this, but the whole thing in general.

I think this whole fucking world is doomed...

[Li'l Lemmy]

Really?

I've heard a dozen people bash the series for the animation quality, which can't always be helped, but never for the artistic style. If there really is a person that would say it detracts from the overall show rather than adds to it, then he's definitely got his butt trapped around something.

[lost in thought]

Really?

I've heard a dozen people bash the series for the animation quality, which can't always be helped, but never for the artistic style. If there really is a person that would say it detracts from the overall show rather than adds to it, then he's definitely got his butt trapped around something.

Well, they sort of go hand-in-hand. I've heard a lot of people say (in real life too,) that they think it looks dirty, and the art style is unrefined, among other less intelligent things. I've heard many-a-people call it "crappy."
Those are the people I label "dumb."

Speaking of Dr. Slump, why the hell hasn't this classic anime been licenced by a current company?

A couple of reasons why Dr. Slump won't probably come any further than manga in the US.

1.) Probably only a small American fan-base.
2.) Companies only think Z' is successful, which is why we haven't gotten more product-marketing on the original DB merch, which is probably another reason why we wont likely see Slump-age, in the US.
3.) Older series' are rarely dubbed. I wouldn't put it past FUNimation to break that chain, as they had with DB, but I wouldn't hold my breath, since DB was probably only done so people would be able to segway to Z'.

[Super Sonic]

Inu Yasha: Rumiko Takahashi's first hit manga "Urusei Yatsura" was struggling to find an audience until the anime starting airing after Dr. Slump on Fuji TV, and suddenly found an audience and became a huge success (thank you Toriyama).

Speaking of Dr. Slump, why the hell hasn't this classic anime been licenced by a current company?

As much as I laughed uncontrollably at the manga, I wouldn't mind seeing the anime. Though if it was dubbed, do you think it should be done by any company (except 4Kids) or by Funimation to keep consistant with the crossover?

[Son Goku]

by Funimation to keep consistant with the crossover?

Exactly, I mean, they got most the voice actors right there! Also, I think, even though it's old (24 years old, anniversary next year anyone?), if the manga does well enough, they may consider it. Who knows?

[DBW]

1.) Probably only a small American fan-base.
2.) Companies only think Z' is successful, which is why we haven't gotten more product-marketing on the original DB merch, which is probably another reason why we wont likely see Slump-age, in the US.
3.) Older series' are rarely dubbed. I wouldn't put it past FUNimation to break that chain, as they had with DB, but I wouldn't hold my breath, since DB was probably only done so people would be able to segway to Z'.

4.) It's incredibly difficult to find an audience for Dr. Slump in a North American market. The show has a look and feel as though it were intended for pre-schoolers, but then is filled to the brim with raunchy sexual humor and all sorts of complex pop-culture references. Older audiences would be turned off almost immediately by the opening theme, and young children would be asking their parents about the premise of episode 2, causing an immediate uproar.

On the note of FUNimation "breaking the chain" of not licensing old animes; I'm praying to God that their Galaxy Railways release is successful, and pushes them into obtaining the original masterpieces Galaxy Express 999 and Space Pirate Captain Harlock. The anime community desperately needs more exposure to Leiji Matsumoto.

[Super Sonic]

1.) Probably only a small American fan-base.
2.) Companies only think Z' is successful, which is why we haven't gotten more product-marketing on the original DB merch, which is probably another reason why we wont likely see Slump-age, in the US.
3.) Older series' are rarely dubbed. I wouldn't put it past FUNimation to break that chain, as they had with DB, but I wouldn't hold my breath, since DB was probably only done so people would be able to segway to Z'.

4.) It's incredibly difficult to find an audience for Dr. Slump in a North American market. The show has a look and feel as though it were intended for pre-schoolers, but then is filled to the brim with raunchy sexual humor and all sorts of complex pop-culture references. Older audiences would be turned off almost immediately by the opening theme, and young children would be asking their parents about the premise of episode 2, causing an immediate uproar.

What happens in episode 2? Or is that like the story in the manga where Arale asks Senbei about her missing something and he misunderstands her big time?

[Son Goku]

They would just edit it (if they have to) for Adult Swim. (A difficult time finding an audience? Tell that to the brave people doing the Bo-Bo-Bo Bo-Bo-Bo-Bo dub and the brave people of the S.S Triangle (see everyone, I can make Simpsons references too. ).)

As for episode 2, I would put all my bets on the race dog named "Hellyea itwouldmakesence" and maybe some on "Itwasthesecondchapter Soitwillpossiblymatchupintheanime"

(Don't point out the fact that I did three sentences without spacing, they were names )

[lost in thought]

<clipped>My list.</clipped>

4.) It's incredibly difficult to find an audience for Dr. Slump in a North American market. The show has a look and feel as though it were intended for pre-schoolers, but then is filled to the brim with raunchy sexual humor and all sorts of complex pop-culture references. Older audiences would be turned off almost immediately by the opening theme, and young children would be asking their parents about the premise of episode 2, causing an immediate uproar.

Exactly. Even though I am not as familiar with the manga as you are (I've been meaning to pick up the manga, but I haven't had the money,) I think that your reasons, coupled with my own, are the exact reasons why this wouldn't get over here, and if it did, it would likely be for the mature, and cause a huge stir if it got in the hands of children...

On the note of FUNimation "breaking the chain" of not licensing old animes; I'm praying to God that their Galaxy Railways release is successful, and pushes them into obtaining the original masterpieces Galaxy Express 999 and Space Pirate Captain Harlock. The anime community desperately needs more exposure to Leiji Matsumoto.

I haven't seen the Galaxy Railways, and to be honest I only heard about it a couple of months ago, but I am actually starting to get interested in it. I saw some images of it, a couple of days ago, and I think I'll have to look into it, and see what I think about the show. I have heard a lot of good things about it, though, so I am not too worried. As far as Galaxy Express 999, and Space Pirate Captain Harlock go, though, I haven't heard of the latter, but I've heard good things about Galaxy Express 999 though.
And I share the same feelings as you, I really hope more 'classic' anime is dubbed soon, as that would definitely be a treat.

[Majin Buu]

I think it's insulting to even reffer to Dragonball as a "beginner anime", let alone as "not a true anime". Anime is anime damn it. Just because it's insanely popular or isn't as dark, angusty, realistic, or complex as Evangelon or Cowboy Bebop dosen't make it any less of an anime than those two series are.

I myself used to be one of those people that bashed Dragonball just because most people hated it. I was bashing the series for about 2 years after getting into other anime like Ruroken and Inuyasha and reading the complaints about the series on sites like Jump the Shark. I would be complaining that it's the same thing over and over again, it's not deep or complex, and that no one but Goku is important. I also remember going in an anime IRC channel and saying stuff like "I hope there's no DBZ fans in here". But I started to turn around after watching movie 12 for the first time which caused me to remember why I liked Dragonball in the first place (Japanese version) and after watching/playing Budokai 3 for a few days I was a born again Dragonball fan and I came to the realization that I can recognize the series' flaws and still enjoy it for what it is.

[Super Sonic]

With how these guys badmouth DB, I wonder what their opinions are on older anime that many of us watched as kids like Voltron & Star Blazers, or ones our parents liked like Speed Racer and Astro Boy.

[Majin Buu]

They're not deep, complex, dark, or angusty so they suck.