How strong is Goku at the end of Z?

[Dabooyaka]

I've been to a lot of forums lately, and most people tend think that Base Goku was at least as strong as Kid Boo.
I made a thread on Neoseeker a while ago, and I am interested what people here at Kazenshuu thought about it.

These where points as to why I think Goku's base is not as strong as he is hyped up to be..


Chapter: 518 (DBZ 324), P6.5
Goku: “…But someone besides us and Boo might win.”
Satan: “Hahhahhah, now really! There’s no way that could happen, right

Goku thinks that Oob is as strong as Kid Boo, and he is not sure he can win. This here implies that Goku is not that much stronger than he was when he fought Boo 10 years ago. If he was a lot stronger, and he was going up against a guy as strong as Kid Boo, he wouldn't have doubts about him winning.


Chapter: 518 (DBZ 324), P8.1
Trunks: “…Hey, is there really some absolutely incredible guy here somewhere?”
Goten: “…Well, there’s some weirdos at least…”

Nobody can sense a guy that's supposed to be as strong as a freaking Super Saiyan 3 here. Oob can't control his energy, he can't fly or shoot ki blast, so why would he be able to supress his power?


Chapter: 518 (DBZ 324), P10.2
Context: Goku asks Boo to rig the match-ups so he can fight Oob
Goku: “…Sorry, but I wanna fight with him no matter what, in the 1st round when both of us still have 100% of our stamina…”

He still thinks that he needs to be at 100% to fight Oob.


Chapter: 518 (DBZ 324), P11.6-8
Goku: “He’s the one…While I’ve been training on my own, I’ve been waiting all this time for that kid to enter the tournament…[ ]…10 years ago, when that outrageously bad Majin Boo died, I made a wish…That this time, he be reborn as a good guy, so we could fight one-on-one…Apparently old man Enma Daio heard me, and pulled some strings on my behalf…”

This right here tells us again that Goku still thinks he is fighting against a guy as strong as Kid Boo.

Chapter: 518 (DBZ 324), P12.3
Oob: “Maybe mom was right after all…She told me that though I may be far and away the strongest in my village, the world is way stronger than that, and it’s sure to be full of people stronger than me…”

His mom doesn't think he is anything special, if he was one-shotting guy around his village, she would have been a little more confident?

Chapter: 519 (DBZ 325), P6.4-5
Context: as Goku and Oob are about to fight
Piccolo: “This will be the most notable fight this time around…”
Dende: “Huh?”
Goku (to Oob): “Don’t be so tense. You won’t be able to put forth your true ability.”

He wants him to fight him at full power, using his full ability, at this point, Goku doesn't think much of Oob's Ki. Remember, Boo can't control his ki, so he can't hide his ki, what you see is what you get.

Chapter: 519 (DBZ 325), P12.2-5
Context: Oob is surprised by Goku’s Bukujutsu
Goku: “Oh, I see. You still don’t even know how to fly, huh? …I guess there ain’t no helping it. You haven’t had no teacher, and you probably never even considered things like that. Sorry I bad-mouthed you before. Please forgive me. I just wanted to know your true ability. You’re exactly the person I thought you were. As amazin’ as I expected. But you don’t know how to use your power. This is the first time you’ve fought like this, right? I've got it! From now on I'll live with you at your house and teach you

Once Oob gets mad, and powers up a bit by pure luck and accident he shows some real power, sadly, this is a power that base Goku can handle.
So why would Goku think that a guy he can sneeze at while being a Ssj could win the Budokai?? Because he didn't know Oob had no training. He expected Kid Boo, and that's who he got... So yes, Oob is who Goku thought he was, he just can't fight with his full power, so Goku decides to teach him.

Chapter: 519 (DBZ 325), P13.6
Context: talking to Gohan about training Oob
Goku: “I don’t know how many years it will take, but I’ll come back home every now and then. Give my best to everyone!
Oob is so weak, that it might take years to bring him anywhere close Kid Boo's power, Remember, Goku thought he was fighting a guy as strong as Boo, and he still didn't think he had a sure chance at victory...


So where are the implications that base Goku is now Ssj3 Tier?

[Undertaker]

Base Goku was not afraid of Good Boo who is the highest SSjin 2 tier. Goku didn't know what to expect from Oob. For example, Piccolo Jr was stronger than Piccolo Daimao. I think Oob's burst of ki was as strong as Pure Boo. His overall power should be around Cell Games FPSSjin Goku IMO.

[DBZGTKOSDH]

So where are the implications that base Goku is now Ssj3 Tier?

I don't think base Goku is at SS3 tier, but I do think that Oob at full power is about as strong as Pure Boo

Chapter: 519 (DBZ 325), P12.2-5
Context: Oob is surprised by Goku’s Bukujutsu
Goku: “Oh, I see. You still don’t even know how to fly, huh? …I guess there ain’t no helping it. You haven’t had no teacher, and you probably never even considered things like that. Sorry I bad-mouthed you before. Please forgive me. I just wanted to know your true ability. You’re exactly the person I thought you were. As amazin’ as I expected. But you don’t know how to use your power. This is the first time you’ve fought like this, right? I've got it! From now on I'll live with you at your house and teach you

Oob is so weak, that it might take years to bring him anywhere close Kid Boo's power, Remember, Goku thought he was fighting a guy as strong as Boo, and he still didn't think he had a sure chance at victory...

Oob is very weak only when he is not angry. He doesn't know how to use his power, and that's what Goku wants to teach him.

Now, as for what I believe...

While I do believe that raged Oob is as strong as Pure Boo (that's what Goku's statements imply), I don't believe that base Goku is stronger than Boo arc SS3 Goku, because it really is crazy and unrealistic for the manga.
But they fought evenly so, they should be equal, right? Not nessesarily. The battle was very short in the manga (only 4 pages).

http://i1230.photobucket.com/albums/ee4 ... 93f76e.jpg
http://i1230.photobucket.com/albums/ee4 ... 2c36c7.jpg
http://i1230.photobucket.com/albums/ee4 ... 9068bc.jpg
http://i1230.photobucket.com/albums/ee4 ... 1ac7a6.jpg

So, I believe that Oob had not unleashed his full power when he was fighting evenly with Goku, and then he fully unleashed his power when he used the Kiai on Goku.

[Saiga]

I don't see why he had to be at full power even with the kiai. I see him being a match for base Goku and that's it.

[Kaboom]

I'm more or less with DBZGTKOSDH on this. Even if Oob really was throwing around power on Pure Boo's level at his absolute best, especially with that last kiai... It really doesn't mean anything about Goku's power.

Same thing for any generic hype talk before the match. Lines saying, "there'll be some other strong guy at the tournament besides us" do not automatically equate to specific power statements of "Oob > Base Goku (EoZ) > SSj3 Goku (Z)" or anything needlessly concrete like that.

But also, like Dabooyaka pointed out, Oob is still a lot like li'l beginning-of-Z Gohan at this point in that his power is mostly dormant and uncontrollable. He's not going to truly be on Pure Boo's level until he gets some training to bring it out and harness it.

[Mystic Gohan]

I see Goku = Oob = Kid Boo at the end of Z.

[Ketchup_Revenge]

I have a seriously hard time believing that base Goku was as strong as Kid Boo by the end of Z. Goku's training during the ten year gap was frequent, but most likely limited. There's only so much you can gain in regular gravity with no serious training partners. Gohan most likely was focusing on his schooling and his life with Videl, and Goten wouldn't be much of a training partner if his attitude toward fighting was similar to Gohan's.

Goku only gained so much power during the seven years following Cell because he was training continuously and he had an easier time with transformations because he was both dead, and in Other World, where strain on the body is limited. All serious increases that Goku received in the series was all a direct result of serious training or zenkai. I don't believe that primarily training with himself in the mountains qualifies as "serious".

In all honesty, I don't put him much above Super Perfect Cell by the end of Z, and I really don't believe that Oob was anywhere near Kid Boo when we first meet him. Just because their spirits are the same doesn't mean that they're inherently equal in power, even when Oob's pissed. And even if he did have a hidden reserve like Gohan did, I highly doubt that a few insults from Goku would bring out the full force of it. It's not like he was seeing people get hurt or fearing for his own life.

[DBZGTKOSDH]

I don't see why he had to be at full power even with the kiai. I see him being a match for base Goku and that's it.

Goku expected a super strong guy at Boo's level, since he wasn't even sure if he would win the tournament. And at the end of his fight, he confirmed that Oob was exactly as he though he would be. The only problem was that because he wasn't trained, he couldn't control his power. So, Goku would have to train him, so that he can fight with him again when he can use his power at maximum.

[Saiga]

I don't see why he had to be at full power even with the kiai. I see him being a match for base Goku and that's it.

Goku expected a super strong guy at Boo's level, since he wasn't even sure if he would win the tournament. And at the end of his fight, he confirmed that Oob was exactly as he though he would be. The only problem was that because he wasn't trained, he couldn't control his power. So, Goku would have to train him, so that he can fight with him again when he can use his power at maximum.

I'm aware of that, but to me that doesn't necessitate Oob reaching Pure Boo's full power at any point during the fight. He just needs to show enough hidden power to prove that it's there.