Coola's Battle Power.

[Legendary Saiya-Jin]

For awhile, I've had a hard time swallowing the Daizenshuu concept that 5th Form Coola would be something over 470 million; of course, I have no real concrete evidence to say otherwise except "Fan-conjectures" as Kaboom may put it, but I would like to hear peoples' thoughts regardless.

I feel that the whole point of this film was to show that Coola had doubted a Saiya-Jin with such power as SSJ Namek Gokuu could exist to defeat Freeza and that he probably felt threatened by it; when it came to it, I truly believe Gokuu would be exactly the same power as he was as a SSJ on Namek when he transformed in the movie. The entire end of their conversations was Coola baiting Gokuu to show him the power he used to kill his brother, although he seemed initially suprised at base Gokuu's strength, he right-afterward contradicted this by saying he was pathetic and Freeza was worthy of death if he fell to someone as weak as Gokuu (keeping in mind, he was strongly implied to be using Kaiou-ken x10 or above in base form against 5th Form Coola as well.)

So, just to reiterate my point: I'm only contesting the concept of Coola being above 400 million simply because I feel it's against the movie's own theme of the villain intentionally trying to bait the power of his previous SSJ state. It would ruin the whole point if Coola was over 400 million, and Gokuu would have to achieve something astoundingly way over 150 million to be able to take a punch to the abdomen or ki blast by 5th Form Coola with not even a hint of damage.

This is how I attempt to rationalise this: Gokuu was 150,000,000 on Namek and against 5th Form Coola as a SSJ; Freeza was 120,000,000, but Gokuu toyed with him out of revenge and humiliation for killing Kuririn and/ or Freeza surprised Gokuu a few instances with his great speed that kept up a semi-decent fight for a few minutes, ultimately doing no damage to Gokuu, however. And then 5th Form Coola would be around 124,000,000, giving him enough edge over 100% Freeza for him to feel confident of his superiority but perhaps still concerned about a Super Saiya-Jin; his power would also arguably be wide enough from Gokuu for him not to take without any damage from Coola, but perhaps unlike his brother, he didn't have speed benefit, but instead had better ki-control.

I would also like to say that I think it's possible this movie's universe is based on the idea, that, Gokuu may have killed Freeza before he displayed his 100% form, most likely as a SSJ (but I suppose it could have been with the Genki Dama), which might give more leeway to the fact that Gokuu was so astounded by the size of Coola's ki being so much larger than Freeza's after his 5th Form transformation. It does seem these movies are based on parts of the sagas before they are even concluded, so I wouldn't be surprised if Coola was based on Freeza pre-100% display.

[Fox666]

deleted

[Legendary Saiya-Jin]

Yeah, of course. I wasn't trying to bring up an argument of whether Coola was possibly weaker/ stronger/ equal to Freeza in Fourth form, just that how much stronger he was in Fifth Form compared to 100% Freeza is all.

[TheMightyOzaru]

Base 100%: 100,000,000
Final Form: 200,000,000

[Nazi Cola]

I don't think the movie takes place during the 3 year training period like a lot of fans usually assume.

The first discrepancy is the fact that the movie came out the same month that Mecha Freeza came to Earth with King Cold and was killed by Trunks. The latest chapter of the manga, which is the volume where Trunks finishes off King Cold, was released only five days before the movie. This leads into the next discrepancy, which is that Cooler only mentions getting revenge for Freeza and not their father, King Cold, who he held in high regard while he disliked Freeza. This could logically point to Cold having never come to Earth.

The final couple discrepancies have to do with Goku, who needs rage to turn into a Super Saiyan, and doesn't appear to know Shunkan Ido. This would be odd because when Goku arrives home from Yardrat, he has full control of his Super Saiyan form, and displays gladly Shunkan Ido to the entire group.

I think it happens in some alternate universe where Goku just went straight home from Namek. It would really dwindle Cooler's power down from that 470,000,000, which mind you I don't have a problem with, but the way I see the movie's placement makes it a bit difficult to assume something of that high nature.

[Legendary Saiya-Jin]

I don't think the movie takes place during the 3 year training period like a lot of fans usually assume.

The first discrepancy is the fact that the movie came out the same month that Mecha Freeza came to Earth with King Cold and was killed by Trunks. The latest chapter of the manga, which is the volume where Trunks finishes off King Cold, was released only five days before the movie. This leads into the next discrepancy, which is that Cooler only mentions getting revenge for Freeza and not their father, King Cold, who he held in high regard while he disliked Freeza. This could logically point to Cold having never come to Earth.

The final couple discrepancies have to do with Goku, who needs rage to turn into a Super Saiyan, and doesn't appear to know Shunkan Ido. This would be odd because when Goku arrives home from Yardrat, he has full control of his Super Saiyan form, and displays gladly Shunkan Ido to the entire group.

I think it happens in some alternate universe where Goku just went straight home from Namek. It would really dwindle Cooler's power down from that 470,000,000, which mind you I don't have a problem with, but the way I see the movie's placement makes it a bit difficult to assume something of that high nature.

Yes, I agree with everything you mentioned very much so.

What do you think Coola's battle power was at 5th Form against SSJ Gokuu? Do you think you would agree with me that Base/ SSJ Gokuu = Freeza Saga battle strength?

[DragonBoxZTheMovies]

I don't think the movie takes place during the 3 year training period like a lot of fans usually assume.

I think Daizenshuu 6 speculates that DBZ Movie 5 takes place in the 3 year gap and Daizenshuu 7 also places it there on its timeline, but then again Daizenshuu 6 also places DBZ Movie 6 in the 10-Day break before the Cell Games.

[TheMightyOzaru]

Cooler only being 124,000,000 is bit odd for my taste. He had to have trained himself to attain such a form. I'm not saying his base form has to be stronger than 120,000,000 but it should be within 90,000,000 or something. Then his power level in his final form should be 180,000,000 or higher. I go off the idea that transformations, in the Frost Demon family, double ones power. Goku did get a Zenkai in this movie so his level likely went up to 4,000,000 or higher.

[Legendary Saiya-Jin]

Cooler only being 124,000,000 is bit odd for my taste. He had to have trained himself to attain such a form. I'm not saying his base form has to be stronger than 120,000,000 but it should be within 90,000,000 or something. Then his power level in his final form should be 180,000,000 or higher. I go off the idea that transformations, in the Frost Demon family, double ones power. Goku did get a Zenkai in this movie so his level likely went up to 4,000,000 or higher.

Here's what I think: Freeza's "original" 100% power is actually 80,000,000 (going by the Daizenshuu's 60,000,000 for 50%), and his bulky, 100% state is a semi-transformation similar to SSJ Grade II; in the universe of Coola's Revenge, it was part-way toward Fifth Form, so Coola's Fourth Form max could be anywhere between 60-90 million, give or take, and he'd probably be able to take his max by over a 1.5x multiplier like Freeza's 100% was.

I really don't like the idea of making Coola too much weaker than Freeza nor too much stronger than Gokuu. I feel like the theme of the movie is: he's not that much stronger than Freeza, and this is possibly in a universe were Gokuu never experienced his 100% power, so it's possible he could be stronger than 100% Freeza by only a little bit in 5th Form (it could work because Freeza might tire out faster than Coola's 5th Form if the 3.33-% difference wouldn't already settle things,) and both Freeza and Coola underestimated the true power of SSJ Gokuu. Coola even baited several times throughout the movie for Gokuu to show him the power he used to destroy Freeza, so I think anything beyond Gokuu's 150 million for SSJ Gokuu in this movie would defeat the theme of the story.

[Kaboom]

That's sort of the way I figured it too. Freeza's "100%" is bulking himself up a-la Super Saiyan Grade 2, while Coola's new form is like a proper and more-powerful Super Saiyan 2. Without it, Coola is at an all-around disadvantage to Freeza, but not necessarily by much, and with it, he caps out at stronger than Freeza was. Goku himself, though, has gotten stronger one way or another since his battle with Freeza, and can still smack down Coola once he goes Super Saiyan.

Freeza (normal max): 80
-----100% (x1.5): 120
Coola (normal max): 70
-----Transformed (x2): 140

Super Saiyan Goku (Namek): 150
Super Saiyan Goku (Movie 5): 180


Something like that.

[Fox666]

deleted

[Legendary Saiya-Jin]

I appreciate your replies; I'm clueless on Daizenshuu and V-Jump information, so I apologize for the mix-up.

I don't see a reason to assume that Coola would be weaker than Freeza without his transformation. He probably wasn't putting all of his power in his 4th, and he only actually surpassed Freeza 100% when he transformed. He could be either weaker or stronger in his 4th form, likely around the same level.

I agree; how strong to you think 5th Form Coola and SSJ Gokuu was in that movie?

[Fox666]

deleted

[Legendary Saiya-Jin]

What are your opinions of my interpretation of this movie's intentions of portraying that Coola was no match for SSJ Namek Gokuu's strength? Do you think it's valid? Unsubstantiated?

[TheMightyOzaru]

What are your opinions of my interpretation of this movie's intentions of portraying that Coola was no match for SSJ Namek Gokuu's strength? Do you think it's valid? Unsubstantiated?

I personally think it's a little ridiculous to portray Cooler weaker than Mecha Freeza, whom was pretty confident he could beat Goku so I'd put Mecha Freeza around 160,000,000. Cooler to me has to be at least 170,000,000 IMO.

[Legendary Saiya-Jin]

Not sure he was confident the way he reacted to Trunks; I imagine Gokuu didn't do intensive training on Yardrat and was apparently able to easily apprehend mecha-Freeza and Cold. It's not like Freeza could sense ki or had the technology to measure their battle powers, so I wouldn't be surprised if Freeza was just deluded in his power like he was when he tried shooting a ki blast at Gokuu from behind with a half-body.

So 5th Form Coola could work as 124,000,000 with mecha-Freeza maybe being around the same or maybe around the 140,000,000's.

[Kaboom]

The 140 million range is usually where I see both Mecha Freeza and 5th-form Coola, as series-to-movie counterparts to each other. They're each "stronger than Freeza" but neither is still quite up to the task of taking on their respective Super Saiyans. With how Movie 5 so closely mimics Goku's battle with Freeza and how Goku had improved only moderately (at least just in terms of raw power) after Yardrat, I don't think the powers in play in either Movie 5 or the Trunks arc are supposed to be all that much different from what they were on Namek. They would be stronger, yes, but not drastically so by any means. For reference and comparison's sake, I'd consider Super Saiyan Goku (and Trunks) in both the Trunks arc and Movie 5 to be around 175-180 million.

[Legendary Saiya-Jin]

But this movie doesn't even make it seem like it's the same universe; we have no clue as to when the movie takes place, and it seems like Gokuu never went to Yardrat since he's never seen using Shunkan Idou (I'm ignoring the later installment with Coola's Return as an alternate universe within an alternate universe.) So, I don't think he even trained anywhere remotely as he may have on Yardrat, especially since he can't even seemingly become SSJ at will.

I highly doubt Gokuu was anywhere far from his Namek-self if at all, and I don't mean by 10-30 million points or not even five million or by a 4% difference; I would say the difference would be even less than 1% or .05% or virtually by zero percent. I think this, again, because, I think the movie was strongly implying that the whole theme of the movie was Gokuu's re-awakening his Super Saiya-Jin power that both Coola and Freeza doubted existed. Coola had consistently made remarks about how Gokuu's strength he displayed on him was enough to destroy his brother, as if assuming he had never changed in strength since his encounter with Freeza on Namek. I agree with Kaboom, that, it was definitely a re-cap of his fight with Freeza, even showing him use Kaiou-ken aura and the Kaiou-ken with a Kamehame-ha (which can probably assumed to be x20).

I'm sorry if I'm coming off as argumentative for this topic or ignoring your opinions; I do understand (I believe) what you're all saying, but I honestly think the movie intended on symbolising Gokuu as being identical as his Namek counter-part. Not saying your points are invalid since I guess a lot of what Coola said could be dismissed as metaphorical trash-talk.

[Kaboom]

I think we're thinking the same things here, but you might be over-complicating it. I guess, to put it simply, I would be saying... "Everyone looks like they did on Namek but nobody was too much stronger between then and Trunks so you could consider it to be either one just fine."

...Oh, and I almost forgot. Pretty sure there is a line in the movie saying that Goku's gotten stronger since he returned from Namek. So assuming I'm remember that right, what's a little bit stronger than Goku on Namek? Goku after visiting Yardrat. Ta-da.

[Fox666]

deleted