Was Gokuu at 4,000 in base against Nappa/ Vegeta?

[Legendary Saiya-Jin]

I was arguing with somebody on Facebook about power levels and they said they thought Gokuu had to be at around 4,000 because Kaiou-ken doubles his power and Kaiou-ken x2 would double the doubling of the Kaiou-ken; they also suggested that when Gokuu rage-powered to over 8,000, that, he was using Kaiou-ken (or at least I think that's what he was saying.)

Do you think this holds any water, fellow DB fans?

[Rocketman]

Yes. That's why Kaioken x3 put him at 12,000 and Vegeta instantly killed him.

[Legendary Saiya-Jin]

Yes. That's why Kaioken x3 put him at 12,000 and Vegeta instantly killed him.

Kaiou-ken x3 would technically by 4x his base, following this logic; so 16,000 vs 18,000 could understandably do some damage like he did?

[rereboy]

Regular Kaioken and Kaioken x2 are exactly the same thing. The author just wanted to make the difference between regular Kaioken and Kaioken x3 be more apparent so he made Goku name it Kaioken x2 shortly before he used kaioken x3. The "x2" or "x3" (or whatever) indicates by how much his power is being multiplied thanks to Kaioken.

[Legendary Saiya-Jin]

Regular Kaioken and Kaioken x2 are exactly the same thing. The author just wanted to make the difference between regular Kaioken and Kaioken x3 be more apparent so he made Goku name it Kaioken x2 shortly before he used kaioken x3. The "x2" or "x3" (or whatever) indicates by how much his power is being multiplied thanks to Kaioken.

What do you think about what the original post said?

[rereboy]

Regular Kaioken and Kaioken x2 are exactly the same thing. The author just wanted to make the difference between regular Kaioken and Kaioken x3 be more apparent so he made Goku name it Kaioken x2 shortly before he used kaioken x3. The "x2" or "x3" (or whatever) indicates by how much his power is being multiplied thanks to Kaioken.

What do you think about what the original post said?

Well, like I said, I don't agree with treating regular Kaioken and kaioken x2 as if they are different. They are not. Besides that, Goku didn't use Kaioken to reach a power level of over 8000. The manga makes it very clear when he is using it and when he is not and at that moment he wasn't using it. Also, Goku had just mastered the technique and he knew that it was a dangerous technique that could wreck his body if he messed up, so it wouldn't make sense for him to use it just to power up in front of Nappa and not attack him. He only used it when Nappa attacked Gohan and krillin because he had to, not before.

[Darkprince410]

When Goku is explaining the Kaiou-ken to Kuririn and Gohan, there's a flash back to when North Kaiou is discussing the technique to him. He insists that Goku not increase his strength higher than two fold (his exact words were "Increase it no higher than twice your normal power...do you understand?"), and then exclaims rather strongly when Goku powers up to Kaiou-ken 3x, saying that he should never go beyond two fold.

If Goku were only at 4,000, and the Kaiou-ken 2x worked the way you said, then it'd be a 4x increase of Goku's battle power. However, Kaiou doesn't make any panicked comments until Goku goes to use the 3x Kaiou-ken, suggesting that up until then, he's not increased his power beyond the two fold limitation that Kaiou insisted he adhere to.

[FNF]

Yerrr...no.

If anything, Nappa is stronger than 4,000.

[Kamiccolo9]

Not really. Goku was detected at 5000 before the fight started, and I doubt he was using Kaio-ken while traveling to the battlefield.

[Hitiro]

We know bad guys can't control their Battle Power like the fighters of Earth. But I've always been under the belief that Nappa's resting Battle Power is 4,000. When he exerts himself, and taking into consideration his state of mind, his Battle Power would rise much higher than that. Enough so that he could just about fight Goku. We also have to remember that these are higher numbers that we are working with here. So differences in people Battle Powers might be a bit different. By this I mean if (Battle Ready)Nappa is at 6,000 he would probably be able to keep up with Goku. Whereas the equivalent difference of people with lower Battle Power's would see a much larger difference in ability. An example would be what we believe to be Roshi's Battle Power and then Tienshinhan or Goku's Battle Power's. I believe in Daizenshuu 7 Roshi's Battle Power was stated to be 137? Whereas Tienshinhan and Goku's were 180. There isn't that large a difference between 137 and 180 yet Roshi was clearly outclassed by Tienshinhan who wasn't even using his full power.

[Darkprince410]

We know bad guys can't control their Battle Power like the fighters of Earth. But I've always been under the belief that Nappa's resting Battle Power is 4,000. When he exerts himself, and taking into consideration his state of mind, his Battle Power would rise much higher than that. Enough so that he could just about fight Goku. We also have to remember that these are higher numbers that we are working with here. So differences in people Battle Powers might be a bit different. By this I mean if (Battle Ready)Nappa is at 6,000 he would probably be able to keep up with Goku. Whereas the equivalent difference of people with lower Battle Power's would see a much larger difference in ability. An example would be what we believe to be Roshi's Battle Power and then Tenshinhan or Goku's Battle Power's. I believe in Daizenshuu 7 Roshi's Battle Power was stated to be 137? Whereas Tenshinhan and Goku's were 180. There isn't that large a difference between 137 and 180 yet Roshi was clearly outclassed by Tenshinhan who wasn't even using his full power.

Well, the controlling of ki was more centered around the idea of them being able to suppress it to levels that they wanted to. I agree with you though, since I've always felt that, ith Nappa and Vegeta on Earth, they were able to raise their battle powers, but they couldn't lower them beyond a "standing base" level. Nappa's 4,000 would be what he was always sitting at when he wasn't battle ready, but could push it higher if he needed to. If he and Vegeta weren't able to actually raise their battle power, then the power-up scenes in the manga would be rather unnecessary.

[Akira]

Your facebook buddy is wrong.

For the battle on earth, Goku had roughly the following:
5000 (Battle Power Suppressed)
8000 (Full Power) (Vegeta's Scouter read just over this, the "Over 9,000" bit was a mis-translated line that lead to all the Internet stuff)
16000 (Kaioken x2)
24000 (Kaioken x3)
32000 (Kaioken x4) (Desperation when firing the Kamehameha to overpower Vegeta's Gallick-ho)

I too believe that although the Saiyans at that point could not suppress thier power, they had basic battle power and full battle power. This is often debated, but it seems that the difference is that suppressing is purposely giving off a lower battle power to confuse your enemy or an enemy's scouter. This has to be learned, whereas, regular power and powering up from that is different in that they aren't holding anything back, but aren't over-exherting themselves either until powering up. Nappa and Vegeta both are clearly seen powering up and focusing energy in their attacks. This is shown with Scouter readings for Goku and Piccolo during the fight with Raditz. They both had regular power and then powered up states right before launching energy attacks. Their "suppressed" power at that point was due to weighted clothing, moreso than an actual technique though.

So Nappa's battle power was 4000, but his powered up state was likely in the 6000-7000 range which is what necessitated Goku using Kaioken to beat him quickly. Vegeta's battle power was 18000 but his powered up state to launch Gallick-ho was around 23000-24000 because his beam was evenly matched with Goku's at Kaioken x3 Kamehameha, which was also at roughly the same power range. Goku used that desperation x4 boost to overpower that.

Explain all that to your friend, all the early battle powers make sense if you don't set any pre-set notions on yourself and allow that they are approximations once the numbers reach into the thousands. Hence the "It's just over 8,000" bit and such. Probably exact would be 8046 (<guess) or something like that. The scouters just round up or down to the nearest hundred after the 2000 threshold it seems to me.

That's why such discussions get silly later on because the powers are too great to set a number for. It would just be too inaccurate, which was kinda the plot device point of the scouters anyway.

[Legendary Saiya-Jin]

Not really. Goku was detected at 5000 before the fight started, and I doubt he was using Kaio-ken while traveling to the battlefield.

Why wouldn't he use every means possible to get to his friends whom he knows are dying as fast as possible?

[Super Saiyan Turlast x4]

Because Kaio-Ken was already a dangerous enough technique as is. The last thing he'd want to do is end himself before he gets to fight. His speed on nimbus was considerable enough.

[Kaboom]

Wait, when Goku powered up to 8000, didn't he actually say that he wouldn't be using the Kaio-Ken yet?

[Darkprince410]

You're right. That pretty much cinches it.

Nappa: V-Vegeta...What was Kakarrot's power again?!
Vegeta: Over...8,000...
Nappa: 8,000...?! It's a mistake! It's broken!
Goku: Don't worry. I won't use the "Kaio-ken" on you yet...

[Draken]

Not really. Goku was detected at 5000 before the fight started, and I doubt he was using Kaio-ken while traveling to the battlefield.

Why wouldn't he use every means possible to get to his friends whom he knows are dying as fast as possible?

He's sitting on Nimbus, I don't think Kaioken is necessary

[Kid Buu]

I just think the most amusing thing is that everyone puts his power level at exactly 8000, when its directed stated to be over that.

[Darkprince410]

Well, with Vegeta simply saying that it's over 8,000, that suggests that it's probably not that much higher than 8,000, so for the sake of simplicity, it's just rounded down a bit.

[Legendary Saiya-Jin]

Not saying I agree with this theory, but it doesn't reasonably suggest he wasn't using Kaiou-ken when he powered up and said "I won't use it on you." In fact, he did the same thing to Ginyuu to scare him but didn't use it on him, and, when he was flying to Earth from Snake Way, he was tired, so it would make sense his power level might be over 5,000 when he was flying and probably over such when first arrived like how Piccolo was 320 after he fought Raditz and returned to his normal armour gear even though he had just returned from a tiring fight and regenerated his arm.