Minimum Super Saiyan Level?

[RandomGuy96]

I always hear "Super Saiyan-tier" or "Super Saiyan 2-tier" being thrown around all the time, like Super Saiyans are in a league of their own. But how strong does a Super Saiyan really have to be?

We have numerous instances of Super Saiyans being weaker than, say, Initial Final Form Freeza (Future Trunks for the majority of his life, Bardock from the new special, Goku Jr). But are they the exception or the rule?

Basically: what is the requirement for becoming a Super Saiyan power levels-wise, and was Freeza actually justified in thinking that any Super Saiyan would be a threat to him? Or did that Super Saiyan specifically need to be someone who was already insanely strong compared to any other saiyan, like Goku? Would an "average" Super Saiyan even surpass first form Freeza? Would they be on par with the Ginyus?

[TheMightyOzaru]

There is no minimum for SSJ but for SSJ2? I can't really say.

[Cardle grave]

depends on Potential of the saiyan

[Kaboom]

It's usually described as something like "beyond normal Saiyan power" or something. Which would probably mean around the 50k range and up, if what Jheese said about their normal limits is true. I suppose it wouldn't be TOO much of a stretch for Bardock to have been pushing that much power if he got a big healing boost before his new special.

[TheMightyOzaru]

20K is pretty hefty for a low class so I wouldn't be surprised if Bardock was barely pushing 20,000 when he went SSJ.

[Draken]

I see a lot of people adamant Bardock wasn't even 10,000 when he transformed lol.

[RandomGuy96]

That Bardock can be anywhere from 13,000 to 330,000 for me, with Chilled being <500,000.

[Cardle grave]

I doubt Bardock can go SSJ while being lower then 500 000. He would need to be 3 millions or 5 millions form him to go SSJ. It wouldn't make sense because both vegeta and Goku couldn't go SSj unless there base was in the Millions.

[RandomGuy96]

I doubt Bardock can go SSJ while being lower then 500 000

Trunks did. Also Bardock was getting the shit beaten out of him by Chilled, so he can't be that high. Unless you think Chilled is just way stronger than first form Freeza for some reason.

He would need to be 3 millions or 5 millions form him to go SSJ.

Why?

It wouldn't make sense because both vegeta and Goku couldn't go SSj unless there base was in the Millions.

Trunks could. And Goku said he felt something change in him after his training on the way to Namek. He could've gone SS at 90,000 but he just didn't have the spark. Same with Vegeta. He didn't lack the raw power, just the emotional requirements.

20K is pretty hefty for a low class so I wouldn't be surprised if Bardock was barely pushing 20,000 when he went SSJ.

So you think 20,000 is the minimum?

I think that it's around that level as well. No saiyan could ever get that high before the events of the main story, so it makes sense. It also makes sense that the average Super Saiyan would be faaaaar weaker than Freeza. The protagonists are just extremely strong in general, Super Saiyan or no. On Namek Goku was already nine times as powerful as the former most powerful saiyan (King Vegeta) without even using kaio-ken.

[Cardle grave]

Trunks did. Also Bardock was getting the shit beaten out of him by Chilled, so he can't be that high. Unless you think Chilled is just way stronger than first form Freeza for some reason.

- We don't know where chilled is ranked against freeza and i dont recall trunks having a power level of 500 000 we he went otherwise the android would of eaten him

Why?

- Because both goku and Vegeta where far beyond 500 000 and still couldnt go super saiyan. So how bardock can is not possible

Trunks could. And Goku said he felt something change in him after his training on the way to Namek. He could've gone SS at 90,000 but he just didn't have the spark. Same with Vegeta. He didn't lack the raw power, just the emotional requirements.

- Vegeta was past 2 million but still couldn't go SSj, I don't see how goku would of went at a lower level

[RandomGuy96]

- We don't know where chilled is ranked against freeza and i dont recall trunks having a power level of 500 000 we he went otherwise the android would of eaten him

Trunks in that special was below base Gohan as a SS, who was below base Namek Goku.

- Because both goku and Vegeta where far beyond 500 000 and still couldnt go super saiyan. So how bardock can is not possible

That doesn't make any sense. No one said you had to be this strong to be a Super Saiyan.

- Vegeta was past 2 million but still couldn't go SSj, I don't see how goku would of went at a lower level

Hey, maybe there's a requirement to going Super Saiyan besides a power level of 9,000,001? Maybe it involves having a tranquil heart awakened through intense rage? Maybe Vegeta did something other than increase his base power level during the android arc?

That and two years of training probably increased Vegeta from 2,400,000-ish to over 3,000,000 in the Mecha Freeza mini-arc yet he still couldn't go Super Saiyan.

It's usually described as something like "beyond normal Saiyan power" or something. Which would probably mean around the 50k range and up, if what Jheese said about their normal limits is true. I suppose it wouldn't be TOO much of a stretch for Bardock to have been pushing that much power if he got a big healing boost before his new special.

Wasn't "normal saiyan power" like 500-2,000 at the time of the destruction of Planet Vegeta?

[DBZGTKOSDH]

Trunks was a Saiyan Halfling who was born with the ability to master Super Saiyan from young age. Same for Goten, and probably for Goku Jr as well.

The Daizenshuu state that one of the requirements to become a Super Saiyan is to break the Saiyan limits. Goku is stated to have broken the Saiyan limits when he arrived on Planet Namek, and his battle power was 90.000, so I guess that to become a Super Saiyan, one has to be at least at 90.000, except for the Legendary Super Saiyan (Broli), and Saiyan Halflings that are born with the ability to master it from young age (Goten, Trunks, Goku Jr, Vegeta Jr (?)).

[Pantalones]

Usually when people talk about a character being "SSj tier" or "SSj2 tier" they're comparing characters who aren't actually in those forms (like Cell or Bojack) to the regular Super Saiyans we know of. The descriptions "SSj tier" and "SSj2 tier" don't have anything to do with the idea that someone needs to be on a certain level to be SSj/SSj2, they're just comparing other characters to the (Cell/Buu Saga, usually) Super Saiyans and Super Saiyan 2s.

For example, Super Perfect Cell is generally considered "SSj2 tier" because he's strong enough that none of the regular Super Saiyans we see in the series could fight him. He's on a level of power that needs to be compared to Super Saiyan 2 Gohan, because he's just too far ahead of the regular Super Saiyans (especially the levels they had during the Cell Games, when none of the regular Super Saiyans would stand half a chance against regular Perfect Cell's full power, let alone his "Super Perfect" power.) Along the same lines, Fat Buu is generally considered "SSj3 tier" because no one character short of SSj3 Goku can put up much of a fight against him.

As far as a "minimum Super Saiyan power level," though... I don't think there really needs to be one, and if there is it's definitely not in the millions. There is the idea that you need to surpass the level of a "normal" Saiyan, but not really anything pointing toward exactly where that line would be drawn. Maybe to "surpass the normal Saiyan limits" means being able to reach the range of levels that would normally be restricted to Oozaru Saiyans without transforming, like a base Saiyan getting into the 40,000+ (Oozaru Nappa or stronger) range.
Conveniently, the minimum Super Saiyan level being around 40,000 would mean that it would be possible for young Trunks in the future to have a Super Saiyan level of only 2,000,000 during the "SSj Trunks sparring with base Gohan" scene... and 2,000,000 would be weak enough that a future Gohan (who's still weaker than Goku was after returning from Namek) could be sparring with him in base form.

[RandomGuy96]

Thanks for the responses guys. Episode of Bardock got me wondering if all of the saiyans would be as insanely powerful as our protagonists if they found Super Saiyan and Freeza hadn't killed them. For some reason the thought of fodder "legendary" Super Saiyans being slaughtered by the dozen by Freeza, or a Super Saiyan being weaker than Captain Ginyu (Super Saiyan Raditz?) just amuses me.

[Hitiro]

I always hear "Super Saiyan-tier" or "Super Saiyan 2-tier" being thrown around all the time, like Super Saiyans are in a league of their own.

This stuff is really only thrown around as an indication of a characters rough level in relevance to current Saiyan's of that time period or arc. Such as, Fat Boo being between SSJ2-tier and SSJ3-tier. There isn't a large discerning difference in Saiyan battle powers during most periods of the story(with the exception of possibly the Cell Games). So to say someone is SSJ tier, like Piccolo in the android arc, would mean that Piccolo is around about the same strength as the current SSJ's in that arc. Its really just a very rough, but easy, point of reference we can use to place characters who aren't Saiyan's in tiers of strength for that time period.

As for how strong does a Super Saiyan really have to be? Like DBZGTKOSDH said the Daizenshuu states that one of the requirements to become a Super Saiyan is to break the Saiyan limits. But limits vary from generation to generation and from person to person. 90,000 was Goku's personal Saiyan limit. Vegeta's was higher obviously and then Gohan's was definitely the highest as he recieved arduous amounts of training and I would assume he surpassed his fathers base power(Namek) before he hit his Saiyan limit. For all we know it is possible that the Saiyan limits were much lower for Goku's Fathers generation than Goku's generation of Saiyans and Bardocks Saiyan limit was 10,000. It was inconceivable for a Saiyan to be able to fight with Freeza's elite henchmen pre-Dragon Ball. But then we have the Z era where Saiyans are strong enough to go toe-to-toe with nearly all of Freeza's forms in base.

So I would throw out the possibility that Bardock was around 10,000 in the movie.

[ItsAllGood]

I'm not sure myself, but I do recall seeing Goku demonstrating his upper limit of 180,000 to Ginyu in the anime. At that point, his golden aura began flickering as he was reaching his upper limit at the time.

I would speculate that anything above 160,000 as an absolute bare minimum, increasing to 180,000 for signs of Goku's personal SSJ transformation to begin manifesting. (It may have been filler, but can anyone find a screenshot of this at all?)

For a complete transformation, I would benchmark 240,000 to 260,000 as an absolute minimum achievable limit, taking into account personal "limit-breaks" and the individuals potential. The closer one gets to their limit break, the less stress it requires to initiate the transformation. However, in my opinion this may change depending on the individual.

Vegeta's limit-break was naturally higher due to decades of conquest and training, priming his body for a higher limit from birth. His SSJ transformation occurred well past the 1,000 000 point due to this. I would place his SSJ limit break at closer to 1,400 000.

Bardock was in this situation as well, but his limit break and potential allowed him to manifest his own SSJ transformation at a much lower level, and by extension, his son's SSJ transformation. I would place his SSJ limit break at closer to 120,000, taking into account the massive Zenkai he received in the OVA.

My interpretation of a "Limit-break"

Goku showed signs of his own SSJ form begin to manifest at the 180,000 mark, but to transform into a SSJ at that level would take some incredible stress, possibly enough to kill him. The close he got to his limit break, the easier it was to achieve the transformation.

Granted, he needed to see Krillin decimated to push him past his limit break, but I like to think that in a perfect world, should Goku been able to train enough he would have eventually reached his limit break naturally, as shown by Goten and Trunks, and without the need for a rage boost from seeing his friend killed.

Bear in mind that Goku's subsequent forms only required intense training to achieve, rather that witnessing the near-death of his friends. (Again, this is my own personal interpretation.)

[Draken]

180,000 was Goku's kaioken... I highly doubt that counts.

Vegeta was WELL past a million, past 3 million even at the minimum.

There's never any indication Bardock got a massive 12x Zenkai.

[RandomGuy96]

I always hear "Super Saiyan-tier" or "Super Saiyan 2-tier" being thrown around all the time, like Super Saiyans are in a league of their own.

This stuff is really only thrown around as an indication of a characters rough level in relevance to current Saiyan's of that time period or arc. Such as, Fat Boo being between SSJ2-tier and SSJ3-tier. There isn't a large discerning difference in Saiyan battle powers during most periods of the story(with the exception of possibly the Cell Games). So to say someone is SSJ tier, like Piccolo in the android arc, would mean that Piccolo is around about the same strength as the current SSJ's in that arc. Its really just a very rough, but easy, point of reference we can use to place characters who aren't Saiyan's in tiers of strength for that time period.

As for how strong does a Super Saiyan really have to be? Like DBZGTKOSDH said the Daizenshuu states that one of the requirements to become a Super Saiyan is to break the Saiyan limits. But limits vary from generation to generation and from person to person. 90,000 was Goku's personal Saiyan limit. Vegeta's was higher obviously and then Gohan's was definitely the highest as he recieved arduous amounts of training and I would assume he surpassed his fathers base power(Namek) before he hit his Saiyan limit. For all we know it is possible that the Saiyan limits were much lower for Goku's Fathers generation than Goku's generation of Saiyans and Bardocks Saiyan limit was 10,000. It was inconceivable for a Saiyan to be able to fight with Freeza's elite henchmen pre-Dragon Ball. But then we have the Z era where Saiyans are strong enough to go toe-to-toe with nearly all of Freeza's forms in base.

So I would throw out the possibility that Bardock was around 10,000 in the movie.

I guess that makes sense. I still don't understand why Goku and Vegeta were just so insanely strong in general, though.

Speaking of that Bardock special, I still find it hilarious how all these years Freeza was scared of a "legendary warior" who was actually so weak that he couldn't hope to reach one one hundredth of Freeza's power and would actually get his shit wrecked by, like, Neiz.

[Draken]

I always hear "Super Saiyan-tier" or "Super Saiyan 2-tier" being thrown around all the time, like Super Saiyans are in a league of their own.

This stuff is really only thrown around as an indication of a characters rough level in relevance to current Saiyan's of that time period or arc. Such as, Fat Boo being between SSJ2-tier and SSJ3-tier. There isn't a large discerning difference in Saiyan battle powers during most periods of the story(with the exception of possibly the Cell Games). So to say someone is SSJ tier, like Piccolo in the android arc, would mean that Piccolo is around about the same strength as the current SSJ's in that arc. Its really just a very rough, but easy, point of reference we can use to place characters who aren't Saiyan's in tiers of strength for that time period.

As for how strong does a Super Saiyan really have to be? Like DBZGTKOSDH said the Daizenshuu states that one of the requirements to become a Super Saiyan is to break the Saiyan limits. But limits vary from generation to generation and from person to person. 90,000 was Goku's personal Saiyan limit. Vegeta's was higher obviously and then Gohan's was definitely the highest as he recieved arduous amounts of training and I would assume he surpassed his fathers base power(Namek) before he hit his Saiyan limit. For all we know it is possible that the Saiyan limits were much lower for Goku's Fathers generation than Goku's generation of Saiyans and Bardocks Saiyan limit was 10,000. It was inconceivable for a Saiyan to be able to fight with Freeza's elite henchmen pre-Dragon Ball. But then we have the Z era where Saiyans are strong enough to go toe-to-toe with nearly all of Freeza's forms in base.

So I would throw out the possibility that Bardock was around 10,000 in the movie.

I guess that makes sense. I still don't understand why Goku and Vegeta were just so insanely strong in general, though.

Speaking of that Bardock special, I still find it hilarious how all these years Freeza was scared of a "legendary warior" who was actually so weak that he couldn't hope to reach one one hundredth of Freeza's power and would actually get his shit wrecked by, like, Neiz.

Hey Bardock could at least fight Freeza's first form!

[TheMightyOzaru]

SSJ Bardock: 500,000+
Neizu: 163,000
Neizu isn't wrecking Bardock's shit anytime soon.