How strong are the Android Arc humans?

[RandomGuy96]

I have long been a supporter of first form Freeza > all humans. But a few statements from Herms Strength Checker have made me wonder a bit. It seems to me that the Android Arc humans are implied to be on the same level as the base saiyans, as crazy as that sounds. There's some seriously weird implications going on here:

*Piccolo implies that he's in the hundreds of thousands from a mere 7 days of training on King Kai's planet when he rushes off to fight Freeza after sensing him, expecting not to get one-shotted. At the very least he went from 3,500 to a level that could impress someone at 42,000 in those 7 days, and should be faaaaaar stronger than he was on Earth to even think about taking on Freeza when he knows himself (Earth) < Nappa << Vegeta < Dodoria < Vegeta (first zenkai) < Monster Zarbon = Vegeta (second zenkai) < Recoome < Captain Ginyu < first form Freeza. The Earthlings were there for years...
*20 mistakes Yamcha for Goku with his scouter thing, which judging by the calculations Gero should've done would make Yamcha pretty strong (I'm assuming he thought that Goku would progress similarly to the way he did from Raditz to Vegeta).
*The Earthlings actually bother to train and show up to fight the androids, which would obviously be pointless if they had no hope of helping at all.
*Here's a big one: Gero says that he'll be able to "obtain a large amount of energy" from Yamcha, which is notable as Gero/20 is obviously in the tens of millions. Again, Yamcha would have to be in the millions for his power to have any effect at all.
*Yamcha says that he doesn't want to go to fight #20 and #19 because he was helpless to resist when #20 kicked his ass. Notably, he says: “Fra-frankly I don’t want to go…Sorry…Those guys…nearly killed me and I was helpless to resist…”. Yet he still showed up when he didn't know quite how powerful the androids were. Wouldn't that imply that he thought he wouldn't be helpless?
*Yamcha concludes that he's the least useful person of the group, implying that Krillin and Tenshinhan actually are useful in some way.
*Tenshinhan does the same thing when he says that he left Chiaotzu behind on account of him being too weak (Goku agrees). If all of the humans were below 1,000,000 anyway (which they are, IMO), then wouldn't Chiaotzu be about as useful as them, i.e. not at all?
*Another big one: Tenshinhan says this of Goku's Super Saiyan power: "S-so that’s a Super Saiyan…He’s in a completely different dimension than we are…Too different…"... implying that base Goku wasn't in an entirely different dimension to begin with.
*Later, Gero concludes that if he were to absorb Piccolo's power + the Earthlings, it should put up him above the weakened Vegeta. The Earthlings would have to be in the millions for him to even consider their energy worth taking.
*Tenshinhan actually bothers to attack 17, and Trunks later says that the androids defeated him, Vegeta, Piccolo, and Tenshinhan at the same time while talking about how impressive they are, as if defeating the latter actually means something- obviously that's false if Ginyu can do it.
*Then there's the scene where Tien refuses ROAST training...

I'm pretty confused here. What do you guys think of all of this?

As an aside, there's also this quote...

Chapter: 346 (DBZ 152), P14.3
Piccolo: “Commit this to memory: when we fight, we amplify what you guys call ‘energy’, causing it to explode. That’s why the energy you stole from me earlier doesn’t matter…”

What is Piccolo referring to here?

[TheMightyOzaru]

Scaling-wise, it's quite difficult to place them in the millions when they don't do much of anything to deserve it. Jumping more than 20x in 3 years is a lot for Humans.

[Super Saiyan Turlast x4]

I'm okay with the humans being in the early 100,000 power range. I don't think it's necessary to put them much higher.

Piccolo's comment is clearly referring to a variant of the Kaio-Ken.

No, but seriously--I think he's referring to the fact that they significantly raise their power once they actually start fighting. Basically, Gero ended up with Piccolo's "resting" energy rather than what mattered, which was his powered-up energy.

[RandomGuy96]

But that wouldn't be 'amplifying' his energy. It would just be him revealing it, not hiding it anymore.

Scaling-wise, it's quite difficult to place them in the millions when they don't do much of anything to deserve it. Jumping more than 20x in 3 years is a lot for Humans.

Of course, but what do you think of all of the implications I posted above? Tien's remark on the Super Saiyan power and Gero's estimates (he does have a scouter, right?) make me wonder, as well as Yamcha calling himself the least useful and Tien leaving Chiaotzu behind for being too weak.

[TheMightyOzaru]

I look at scaling and feats before I look at vague character statements.

[Super Saiyan Turlast x4]

Unless Piccolo's referring to releasing Chi-attacks, I'm not sure how else you're supposed to take the quote. Based on the context, it seems to imply they're capable of putting out much more power once they start fighting or powering-up. Gero caught him in a non-fighting/powered-up moment and got mediocre energy because of it.

[Hugo Boss]

It's implicit Yamcha is stronger than Goku was when he returned to Earth from Yadorat. I would put him around 4.000.000. The androids are in the hundred of millions, possibly tapping the billions, a bunch of people who are in the millions wouldn't bother them. Gathering their energy would only work if he had absorved everyone's power besides Vegeta and counting that Vegeta wasn't all out yet.

SS Vegeta > Piccolo (Full Power) > Dr. Gero > SS Vegeta (Stolen Energy) > #19 > SS Goku (Viral Heart Disease) > Piccolo (Supressed) > SS Goku (Yadorat) > SS Trunks > Freeza > Kuririn > Tenshinhan > Yamcha > Goku (Yadorat)

[Saiga]

It's implicit Yamcha is stronger than Goku was when he returned to Earth from Yadorat.

No it's not. Gero's data didn't cover Goku's return, they stopped monitoring after they left for Namek.

[Hugo Boss]

It's implicit Yamcha is stronger than Goku was when he returned to Earth from Yadorat.

No it's not. Gero's data didn't cover Goku's return, they stopped monitoring after they left for Namek.

I don't mean Gero's data. It doesn't imply nothing at all. Any power above 40.000 would makes him wonder about a possible Goku's identity. My point is they chose to participate in the Android Arc. At the very least they must have surpassed the level Goku displayed right after he returned to Earth. It's also implied Yamcha, Tenshinhan and Kuririn aren't much under Base Saiyans at this point. Tenshinhan also is implied to be at least superior than Vegeta and Piccolo were when Mecha Freeza went to Earth. And by adding Kuririn and Tenshinhan powers, Gero would gain a considerable amount of energy, maybe about 10% of his own from each one.

[Saiga]

Choosing to participate doesn't mean they have to have surpassed base Yardrat Goku. That connection doesn't make sense, there is no reason they would think that is the level they need to be at. The power Goku showed after returning from Yardrat was his Super Saiyan form.

Reading too much into things isn't the same as things being implied.

[RandomGuy96]

I look at scaling and feats before I look at vague character statements.

I stopped caring about reasonable scaling some time in between Goku getting a x33 zenkai and Piccolo getting x100 times stronger from mountain training. And since the humans have no feats, these statements are all we have to go on.

Scaling-wise, it's quite difficult to place them in the millions when they don't do much of anything to deserve it. Jumping more than 20x in 3 years is a lot for Humans.

Piccolo did it, and it was not really suggested to be something unique to him, so it wouldn't be totally out of nowhere.

[Super Saiyan Turlast x4]

Piccolo certainly had unique training in comparison to the humans. If they were able to spar with a Super Saiyan for 3 yrs, then yeah, it'd be easier to put them in the millions.

[Saiga]

Piccolo certainly had unique training in comparison to the humans. If they were able to spar with a Super Saiyan for 3 yrs, then yeah, it'd be easier to put them in the millions.

Nah, I don't think so. They'd just die.

[dbzfan7]

Piccolo certainly had unique training in comparison to the humans. If they were able to spar with a Super Saiyan for 3 yrs, then yeah, it'd be easier to put them in the millions.

Nah, I don't think so. They'd just die.

Who'd last the longest and who'd last the shortest I think we all know.

[Hugo Boss]

Choosing to participate doesn't mean they have to have surpassed base Yardrat Goku. That connection doesn't make sense, there is no reason they would think that is the level they need to be at. The power Goku showed after returning from Yardrat was his Super Saiyan form.

I meant base form Goku (Yadorat). They chose to participate to be helpful, but Yamcha stated he couldn't even help after Gero grabbed him, he'd just get in their way. Three years before, knowing the androids would be fearsome foes probably stronger than Freeza, they needed to be in a decent level, rivalrying with the base saiyans or not so far down. Gero considered Kuririn's and Tenshinhan's energy helpful against Vegeta SSJ (standing power). Furthermore, movie 9 Tenshinhan also gives a good fight to Mirai Trunks, who was supposed to be much stronger in Cell Games. I don't take that plot too seriously, but at some point Tenshinhan would be about equal to Mirai Trunks and I bet on Android Arc base Trunks (before 1st RoSaT). Not an evidence, just my opinion.

Reading too much into things isn't the same as things being implied.

I tried to use English terms, but sorry my first language is Portuguese. Maybe "hints" should be a more apropriate word.

[mister yummy]

I've always had the Humans at a significant fraction of the Saiya-jins base power at about the same time. So, Ten and Kurillin in the Androids Saga would be somewhere between 1/2 and 3/4 of Goku's or Vegita's base. Just my personal opinion, nothing really to back it up.

[Saiga]

I know what you meant about Goku, but I don't see any reason why they'd measure themselves up to Goku's base form to determine how useful they were. They saw his Super Saiyan form, so if anything that's what they'd measure themselves to and I think it'd be ridiculous to say they got that strong.

I just don't put any stock into what Gero says about power. He got bluffed by Vegeta, underestimated Goku, overestimated the energy he stole from Piccolo, etc. He was never shown to be proven right.

[Hugo Boss]

I used Goku (Yadorat) as a reference because they still could feel his ki and I don't think they are even close to Freeza's true power but improved a lot. Kuririn stated Super Saiyan is a monster and Goku wasn't afraid because of his Super Saiyan. His base form wasn't that impressive in Kuririn's view, if I'm not interpreting things erroneasly. Gero can locate another fighters by using a measure device. Of course, he didn't measure their true powers but he considered Tenshinhan's and Kuririn's energy helpeful and that energy couldn't even be their true strenght. Piccolo for example gave all his standing power energy but still could overpower Gero with his full strenght.

[Saiga]

There's simply no logical reason to use base Yardrat Goku as a measuring stick. Reaching that level wouldn't mean anything at all when compared to the Androids.

[Hugo Boss]

There's simply no logical reason to use base Yardrat Goku as a measuring stick. Reaching that level wouldn't mean anything at all when compared to the Androids.

It would mean something if you realize androids are much stronger than Goku SSJ (Yadorat) and the humans have to be in a decent level to consider themselves helpful in group. Their foes strenght was a mystery. Piccolo and Vegeta improved a lot, why don't you consider the humans could get a significantly power-up too? 3 millions or 4 millions are nothing compared to Freeza anyways. I have no problem consider Kuririn at 10 millions for example. Just my opinion.