The violence towards child Gohan is kinda disturbing.

[Toparaman]

(Disclaimer: I haven't read the manga, and I've only gotten to episode 82 of DBZ, so maybe I'm missing the whole picture here.)

For a silly manga about beating up baddies, isn't showing brutal violence towards children a bit much? I mean, Gohan is 5, and we see him get beaten nearly to death, blood and all, twice. It just seems like it's in bad taste, by any cultural standard. Do you think Toriyama was a little messed-up in the head?

[Dr. Machismo]

It's just fictional. No big deal.

[Gyt Kaliba]

First off, welcome to the forum.

It might be a little much in a normal series, but you've got to remember that despite his age, Gohan is strong. He's stronger at the age of 5 than his dad was at the age of 20-ish, and has a potential that far outstrips even that. So even when he's getting beaten up, he's still able to take it more than any normal child in reality would. That and, let's face it, the world is in danger and Gohan has the power to help save it. Sometimes, sacrifices have to be made.

All that aside though, you already answered the question a little bit yourself - Toriyama is the kind of storyteller that does more silly than anything else. So even when he does get to the super violent stuff like this, he's not thinking about it in that light. He's just doing what the story requires.

I do kind of wonder if he could have gotten away with it if Dragon Ball was being published now though, but then again, there's some pretty dark stuff in the backstories of all of the Straw Hats in One Piece, and much of that involves their childhoods...so he probably would have. And at the end of the day, it's all fiction anyway.

[Toparaman]

All that aside though, you already answered the question a little bit yourself - Toriyama is the kind of storyteller that does more silly than anything else. So even when he does get to the super violent stuff like this, he's not thinking about it in that light. He's just doing what the story requires.

I guess what makes it disturbing is that, at least in the anime, the scenes where Gohan gets beat up are really intense, not silly. Maybe it's played a little differently in the manga though.

And even if it is fiction, fiction still reflects reality to some degree. Any fiction worth discussing is going to have a real impact on the viewer. Honestly, the violence towards Gohan makes me uncomfortable. I guess that's the point, but I don't like being made to feel that way from a series that (purposefully) doesn't have the maturity to tackle something as horrible as violence towards children.

But I do get your point that Gohan is actually an adult in terms of strength/ability.

[TheGmGoken]

Nothing was disturbing about it to me,. It's pretty much killed or be killed.

[B]

Did you just start at Z or did you watch the original Dragon Ball?

[Toparaman]

I watched DB. Twice the whole way through, actually. The violence towards child Goku was largely slapstick, though. I don't think he ever had his neck broken.

[Fizzer]

The violence toward Goku got pretty bad, think of his battle against Piccolo once he got his youth back; he was being tortured. I think the big difference is the ages of the two. At that point in the series Goku was 15/16, he was just small for his age, at the start of the series Goku was 12, but Gohan is five at the point in the story in question, and acts much younger and more afraid than Goku ever did.

One of the most brilliant things about Dragon Ball (in the broad sense, including Z, GT) it the way it changes gradually. It starts out hilarious and absolutely ridiculous, at least as much about panties as martial arts, and then gradually changes. The plots become thicker, the characters deeper, the danger greater and then the whole thing becomes darker. Apart from at a few specific points, such as the first major-character death, you don't really notice it happening, yet if you made the jump from Z to the start of DB you'd notice a huge difference. It changes as the plot develops, as the main character grows up. You'll probably appreciate this more after seeing the whole series.

[Gyt Kaliba]

He did get his legs and one arm broken however, though I admit that's not quite as painful to witness as Gohan's neck.

Like I said, I can definitely see where you're coming from, but it's just something you're not supposed to think too deeply on. You're definitely not the first to notice it though. I still remember an old X-Play review of Budokai 2 having it's teaser be 'Coming up next on X-Play, child abuse with Dragon Ball Z: Budokai 2!' showing Recoome kicking him around some in the game heh.

[Toparaman]

The violence toward Goku got pretty bad, think of his battle against Piccolo once he got his youth back; he was being tortured. I think the big difference is the ages of the two. At that point in the series Goku was 15/16, he was just small for his age, at the start of the series Goku was 12, but Gohan is five at the point in the story in question, and acts much younger and more afraid than Goku ever did.

One of the most brilliant things about Dragon Ball (in the broad sense, including Z, GT) it the way it changes gradually. It starts out hilarious and absolutely ridiculous, at least as much about panties as martial arts, and then gradually changes. The plots become thicker, the characters deeper, the danger greater and then the whole thing becomes darker. Apart from at a few specific points, such as the first major-character death, you don't really notice it happening, yet if you made the jump from Z to the start of DB you'd notice a huge difference. It changes as the plot develops, as the main character grows up. You'll probably appreciate this more after seeing the whole series.

Goku was 12 at the beginning? I thought he was like 5! Wow, you just blew my mind. I wasn't including the King Piccolo episodes because Goku was definitely a pre-teen by then, but I had no idea he was that old even at the start. Well, then there's really no point in comparing the two, is there?

And while I'm not seeing the "brilliance" you speak of in DBZ, that was one the things I loved about the first DB series; I loved how the tone matured as the characters did also. I think that's partly why it took me a while to watch DBZ; DB ended perfectly, and it seemed like DBZ was largely unnecessary.

[ABED]

I think the point is that it's supposed to disturb you that a child is getting beat up by people like Raditz and Freeza. It's hard not to think of Gohan as 4 or 5 as he acts very mature for his age.

it seemed like DBZ was largely unnecessary.

None of it is neccessary, it's all just supposed to be fun.

He did get his legs and one arm broken however, though I admit that's not quite as painful to witness as Gohan's neck.

Really? At least Gohan was unconscious instantly after the kick.

[Fizzer]

DB ended perfectly, and it seemed like DBZ was largely unnecessary.

The end to DB does make a good ending, and had the series ended there I doubt there would have been many complaints, but remember that DBZ is not a sequel to DB, it is another part of the same story. All of DB and DBZ were written as the same manga, with the end of the Piccolo Jr arc being chapter 194 and the start of the Saiyan arc being chapter 195. In Japan those two are both in volume 17 of the manga. So really, episode 1 of DBZ should be called episode 154 of Dragon Ball. This is why it annoys me that so many people started watching at DBZ, the transition from the Piccolo Jr arc to the Saiyan arc is hardly different to the transition from the Red Ribbon Army arc to the Tenshinhan arc.

Are you watching in English or Japanese by the way? The English dub of DBZ is much worse than the one of Dragon Ball.

[Gyt Kaliba]

He did get his legs and one arm broken however, though I admit that's not quite as painful to witness as Gohan's neck.

Really? At least Gohan was unconscious instantly after the kick.

Yeah, but that's because he was dying, and fast. Goku's injuries, on their own, weren't nearly as fatal. Especially considering he comes right back from it and wins the fight despite his injuries.

It's all a matter of opinion really though.

[Toparaman]

DB ended perfectly, and it seemed like DBZ was largely unnecessary.

The end to DB does make a good ending, and had the series ended there I doubt there would have been many complaints, but remember that DBZ is not a sequel to DB, it is another part of the same story. All of DB and DBZ were written as the same manga, with the end of the Piccolo Jr arc being chapter 194 and the start of the Saiyan arc being chapter 195. In Japan those two are both in volume 17 of the manga. So really, episode 1 of DBZ should be called episode 154 of Dragon Ball. This is why it annoys me that so many people started watching at DBZ, the transition from the Piccolo Jr arc to the Saiyan arc is hardly different to the transition from the Red Ribbon Army arc to the Tenshinhan arc.

Are you watching in English or Japanese by the way? The English dub of DBZ is much worse than the one of Dragon Ball.

I know that it's not actually a sequel. But I'm pretty sure there wasn't a several year gap between Red Ribbon Army and Tenshinhan, nor did Goku have a son, nor were there any sci-fi revelations involved during that transition.

And I'm watching in Japanese.

[Fizzer]

There was a three year gap, and then main characters started dropping like flies, murdered by demons shortly after, but you're right, it was a smoother transition. I'm not disagreeing with you per se, I think Dragon Ball was better than DBZ (that could be mostly due to Z being so slow though), I was just making sure you hadn't fallen into the trap that a lot of people do. Some of them actually think that DB was made as a prequel to Z.

[ABED]

He did get his legs and one arm broken however, though I admit that's not quite as painful to witness as Gohan's neck.

Really? At least Gohan was unconscious instantly after the kick.

Yeah, but that's because he was dying, and fast. Goku's injuries, on their own, weren't nearly as fatal. Especially considering he comes right back from it and wins the fight despite his injuries.

It's all a matter of opinion really though.

Goku probably would've bled out had he not been healed, and he felt every agonizing second of all of his injuries. Gohan's pain was over in an instant and he was fading fast. Wait, were you talking about the fight against Piccolo Daimao or Ma Junior?

There was a 3 year gap between Goku seeing his grandfather again and the 22nd Tournament. The gap between DB and DBZ was 5.

[Gyt Kaliba]

Goku probably would've bled out had he not been healed, and he felt every agonizing second of all of his injuries. Gohan's pain was over in an instant and he was fading fast. Wait, were you talking about the fight against Piccolo Daimao or Ma Junior?

Fair point, though I still cringe more at the Gohan moment, simply because he's not near as tough as his father was. That said, it's still just a simple 'cringe', I don't have a problem with the scene either.

I was talking about his fight against Daimao, yeah. The one against Junior at the tournament I would definitely rank higher, because the whole elbow-into-chest-hole moment is the single most cringeworthy moment for me in the entire franchise.

[DoomieDoomie911]

There were a couple times where it was a bit much. But as Dr. Machismo said, it's just fictional. Besides, All of the training Gohan gets really gives him great character development. By the way, welcome to the forum!

[Toparaman]

There was a three year gap, and then main characters started dropping like flies, murdered by demons shortly after, but you're right, it was a smoother transition. I'm not disagreeing with you per se, I think Dragon Ball was better than DBZ (that could be mostly due to Z being so slow though), I was just making sure you hadn't fallen into the trap that a lot of people do. Some of them actually think that DB was made as a prequel to Z.

Oops, my bad. It's been a while. And despite preferring DB to Z (so far), I'm still finding Z to be plenty entertaining, but in a different way from DB.

Anyway, time to watch some more! Oh, and thanks to Gyt Kaliba and DoomieDoomie911 for the warm welcomes.

[dprez]

If Gohan wasn't beaten like that than the whole world would've been destroyed.