Did Super Saiyan increase Goku's power in BoG?

[DBZGTKOSDH]

As a Super Saiyan God, Goku could fight more or less evenly with Beers. After Goku reverted from Super Saiyan God to base, he could still fight more or less evenly with Beers, and then transformed into Super Saiyan, again fighting more or less evenly with Beers. According to Beers, this happened because Goku somehow managed to absorb the power of SSGod, and his power lose from reverting was insignificant, and Goku didn't even notice that he was changing forms, he thought he was Super Saiyan God during the whole fight.

Did Super Saiyan increase Goku's power at all? The Saiyan transformations increase the user's power by drawing out more power from his dormant powers. Since Goku's base form after absorbing the SSGod power was far beyond his maximum dormant power, maybe that means that Goku when Goku transforms into forms like Oozaru, Super Saiyan, Super Saiyan Grade 3, or Super Saiyan 3, they don't increase his power, and only grant him the drawbacks of each form (luckily for Goku, he transformed to normal Super Saiyan, which has no drawbacks at that point)? What do you think?

[TheMightyOzaru]

I'd say it did a little. Certainly not by 50 times, that's for sure.

[Kaboom]

The way I currently see it, when Goku lost the Super Saiyan God state, the power still remained within him but started to gradually fizzle away. Going Super Saiyan allowed Goku in one way or another to make up for that steadily fading power and remain a match for Beers.

[TheGmGoken]

I agree with Kaboom. The SSJ increased the time limit of his power. Makes me wonder. Did exceeding the time limit make him go SSG a second time for a short amount of time.

[dbzfan7]

The way I currently see it, when Goku lost the Super Saiyan God state, the power just remained within him but started to gradually sizzle away. Going Super Saiyan one way or another allowed Goku to make up for that steadily fading power and remain a match for Beers.

I would think using SSJ would have made Goku have less time with SSJ God's power than base. Kinda like how going SSJ sped up the heart virus.

[Kamiccolo9]

My theory is that SSJ only multiplies normal ki. Since God Ki is different, SSJ wouldn't have any effect on it. It would just be SSJ Goku + however much residual God ki he still had.

[BlazingFiddlesticks]

The way I currently see it, when Goku lost the Super Saiyan God state, the power still remained within him but started to gradually fizzle away. Going Super Saiyan allowed Goku in one way or another to make up for that steadily fading power and remain a match for Beers.

My theory is that SSJ only multiplies normal ki. Since God Ki is different, SSJ wouldn't have any effect on it. It would just be SSJ Goku + however much residual God ki he still had.

Honestly either of these could work, I'm going with Kaboom; he lost the form, the god ki dropped but did not dissipate on the spot, then Goku was able to flare it up again. Goku admits he doesn't know how it works, so his fading out of it the way he did shouldn't really be too problematic.

[DBZGTKOSDH]

My theory is that SSJ only multiplies normal ki. Since God Ki is different, SSJ wouldn't have any effect on it. It would just be SSJ Goku + however much residual God ki he still had.

That's what I'll go with. Besides, Super Saiyan doesn't work like the Kaio-ken, it doesn't amplify one's power, it just grants 50 times more of the Saiyan's dormant power, while the God ki isn't part of Goku's dormant power.

[hleV]

Super Saiyan doesn't work like the Kaio-ken, it doesn't amplify one's power, it just grants 50 times more of the Saiyan's dormant power

How is power multiplication different from power amplification? Kaio-ken could still very well be drawing dormant power. Hence SS & KK's incompatibility with each other.

[DBZGTKOSDH]

Super Saiyan doesn't work like the Kaio-ken, it doesn't amplify one's power, it just grants 50 times more of the Saiyan's dormant power

How is power multiplication different from power amplification? Kaio-ken could still very well be drawing dormant power. Hence SS & KK's incompatibility with each other.

Kaio-ken is stated to amplify one's strength, multiplying all of the user's stats from x2, to x20. Super Saiyan on the other hand draws power from one's dormant power, granting him 50 times greater power.

What you theorize is possible, but not confirmed.

[Blade]

In regards to Battle of Gods and Goku's fight with Birus I guess I'm in favor of the 'paper beats rock' argument.

What do I mean by that? Well, in Dragonball the strength of a character has always been determined generally by how large their Ki is. In Battle of Gods Goku can't sense Birus' Ki, because it's explained that, as a God, he has a different, God-ly power. Even Birus makes a comment that implies that fighting with Ki wont really do anything against him - because he's a God. That's what I mean by the 'paper beats rock' argument, in that in terms of conventional battle power it doesn't matter how much someone were to accrue, it would simply be ineffective against its God-ly counterpart.

I think that, instead of increasing Goku's power outright as such, Super Saiyan God allowed Goku to understand how to use whatever power that Gods use, in order to put up a resistance against Birus. Transforming into a Super Saiyan God merely helped Goku tap into that power and understand it.

I think that this argument goes a good length to explain how Goku could suddenly fight Birus in his base form and as a Super Saiyan following his ascension to Super Saiyan God in a way that doesn't simply mean his normal battle power has sky-rocketed. Not only that, but it's pretty consistent with things stated within the dialogue.

[Kaboom]

I'd be down with an explanation like that. It clashes a little bit with Beers being outright labeled as the strongest thing in DBZ's history, though. That would suggest he's got raw power trumping even Super Vegetto, and that only another god has not only the type but amount of power required to face him.

[Kamiccolo9]

In regards to Battle of Gods and Goku's fight with Birus I guess I'm in favor of the 'paper beats rock' argument.

What do I mean by that? Well, in Dragonball the strength of a character has always been determined generally by how large their Ki is. In Battle of Gods Goku can't sense Birus' Ki, because it's explained that, as a God, he has a different, God-ly power. Even Birus makes a comment that implies that fighting with Ki wont really do anything against him - because he's a God. That's what I mean by the 'paper beats rock' argument, in that in terms of conventional battle power it doesn't matter how much someone were to accrue, it would simply be ineffective against its God-ly counterpart.

I think that, instead of increasing Goku's power outright as such, Super Saiyan God allowed Goku to understand how to use whatever power that Gods use, in order to put up a resistance against Birus. Transforming into a Super Saiyan God merely helped Goku tap into that power and understand it.

I think that this argument goes a good length to explain how Goku could suddenly fight Birus in his base form and as a Super Saiyan following his ascension to Super Saiyan God in a way that doesn't simply mean his normal battle power has sky-rocketed. Not only that, but it's pretty consistent with things stated within the dialogue.

That may be true, but Beers is also stated to be the "strongest being in the history of Z." So it's not just an advantage of his godly ki; he actually is really fricking strong.

Edit, Kaboom beat me to it.

[Blade]

I'd be down with an explanation like that. It clashes a little bit with Beers being outright labeled as the strongest thing in DBZ's history, though. That would suggest he's got raw power trumping even Super Vegetto, and that only another god has not only the type but amount of power required to face him.

I suppose it only clashes if you quantity 'the strongest in DBZ's history' as strictly relating to a fighter's Ki. I think it's entirely plausible to imagine that Super Vegetto may have a larger Ki than Birus, but it would be irrespective when comparing the strength of the two, as Birus' Godly powers would always be at an advantage to Ki, thus determining Birus as being more powerful. That's not to say that Birus is unskilled as a martial artist, as that clearly isn't the case and he obviously commands a great mastery of the use of his powers, whatever their source may be, but it does mean that Birus' status as the strongest fighter in Dragonball Z is directly related to the nature of his powers as opposed to their quantity.

[DBZGTKOSDH]

In regards to Battle of Gods and Goku's fight with Birus I guess I'm in favor of the 'paper beats rock' argument.

What do I mean by that? Well, in Dragonball the strength of a character has always been determined generally by how large their Ki is. In Battle of Gods Goku can't sense Birus' Ki, because it's explained that, as a God, he has a different, God-ly power. Even Birus makes a comment that implies that fighting with Ki wont really do anything against him - because he's a God. That's what I mean by the 'paper beats rock' argument, in that in terms of conventional battle power it doesn't matter how much someone were to accrue, it would simply be ineffective against its God-ly counterpart.

I think that, instead of increasing Goku's power outright as such, Super Saiyan God allowed Goku to understand how to use whatever power that Gods use, in order to put up a resistance against Birus. Transforming into a Super Saiyan God merely helped Goku tap into that power and understand it.

I think that this argument goes a good length to explain how Goku could suddenly fight Birus in his base form and as a Super Saiyan following his ascension to Super Saiyan God in a way that doesn't simply mean his normal battle power has sky-rocketed. Not only that, but it's pretty consistent with things stated within the dialogue.

If I understood correctly, wouldn't that mean that Kami, Enma Daio, Kaio, and Kaioshin would be unbeatable from mortal fighters? Because they have godly ki as well.

[hleV]

Kaio-ken is stated to amplify one's strength, multiplying all of the user's stats from x2, to x20.

And SS is stated to multiply one's power 50 times. How is that different from KK (besides the multiplier)?

Super Saiyan on the other hand draws power from one's dormant power, granting him 50 times greater power.

Who said KK doesn't draw dormant power?

If drawing hidden powers for SS can also be described as power multiplication, why can't KK's power amplification (which is a multiplication as well) be drawing hidden powers?

[TheDevilsCorpse]

If I understood correctly, wouldn't that mean that Kami, Enma Daio, Kaio, and Kaioshin would be unbeatable from mortal fighters? Because they have godly ki as well.

If that were the case, Kaioshin shouldn't have been worried about anybody, ever. Even Buu. So to me, the logic doesn't work. Divine Ki may have an advantage against the regular version, but I doubt it's as great as suggested in the theory.

Also, it's debatable who has Divine Ki and who doesn't. You would think all the gods, but Goku uses Shunkan-ido to teleport to Kaio's planet and suggests that he'll teleport to Kaioshin if Kaio doesn't tell him about Birus, so...plotholes abound? =P

[DBZGTKOSDH]

Who said KK doesn't draw dormant power?

No one said it is. What it is said is that it amplifies, while Super Saiyan draws power from hidden powers. If amplification means that it draws power from hidden powers, then the Kamehameha of SS3 Goku or U. Gohan would be very weak.

[dbzfan7]

The whole hidden power thing was only mentioned in SSJ3 as a temporary description. In the SEG there is no mention of SSJ3 having anything to do with hidden power if I recall correctly.

[hleV]

What it is said is that it amplifies, while Super Saiyan draws power from hidden powers.

AKA multiplies power. So again, how is multiplication and amplification different besides numbers?