Nappa's power level

[TheMightyOzaru]

The Daizenshuu 7 lists Nappa's BP at 4,000. Goku is rocking a BP over 8,000 yet Goku says this after Nappa starts fighting seriously:
Chapter: 226 (DBZ 32), P7.4/P8.1-4
Context: after Goku deflects Nappa's mouth blast
Vegeta: “Unbelievable!! To instantly deflect it at that short of a distance!”
Goku: “Phew. If I had taken that one head on, I’d have been in trouble!!”
Nappa: It…It can’t be!!! That was my…my best technique!!! He…He just bounced it off!!”
Goku: “He really is a tough bastard! Even though he should have been hurt a little bit by my Kamehameha!! At this rate this looks like it will take forever...”
How the heck is someone that's only half as strong as his opponent giving his opponent trouble? It doesn't make 1 bit of sense.

[Saiga]

A battle power of 4,000 makes the most sense to me. He freaks out over Goku's initial battle power of 5,000 (thought that doesn't necessitate being weaker than that, I still feel it supports it), has his hand stung from 2,800 Gohan's Masenko, and gets knocked around by the humans a fair bit. I think those would all be very weird if he was something close to Goku, say 7,000.

I think that as a warrior with lots of experience he can fight well, provided he remains calm, but when angered or up at an advantage he fights rather sloppy.

[Kaboom]

Just let me sum it up like this. Piccolo and the humans did a lot better against Nappa than Nappa did against Goku.

[RandomGuy96]

Just let me sum it up like this. Piccolo and the humans did a lot better against Nappa than Nappa did against Goku.

Basically this. I don't see someone anywhere near 8,000 getting a bloody mouth and a bruise from a punch from Piccolo, who was only 3,500.

I think it has something to do with Toriyama not caring about battle power consistency here. The whole Nappa fight is LOADED with inconsistencies, like Nappa being hurt by Krillin's punch and not Tenshinhan's big blast, or him getting knocked around by the humans and then not bursting when punched once by Goku, or freaking the fuck out and sweating bullets at a power level of 5,000 and then talking shit about a power level of 8,000, or taking more damage from Gohan's kick while on guard than he takes from Piccolo's punch while off guard, even though the latter is much stronger than the former, even with rage factored in. Toriyama seemed to change his mind on how powerful Nappa was supposed to be every other page.

It was all for the sake of the narrative; he needs to tank Chiaotzu and Tenshinhan to make the situation look hopeless, but then have trouble with Gohan and Krillin because they need to survive to the Vegeta fight. He needs to take some damage from hits by Piccolo and Gohan so he doesn't look TOTALLY invincible and cheap (and so Piccolo and Gohan don't look useless), but he also needs to tank hits from Goku so he lasts long enough for Goku to show off his new kick-ass technique.

I just go with the level that makes the most sense, and contradicts the least events. And that's the 4,000 level; it merely contradicts two statements, rather than all of the feats we witnessed, like Nappa getting knocked around effortlessly by Goku.

[ZombieVito]

Closer to 8,000

I have him at 7,600

[TheMightyOzaru]

Things still don't add up. Goku says that after Nappa starts fighting seriously, he starts to become troublesome. Someone who is over twice as weak CANNOT do that based on what the series has shown us. Vegeta can manhandle Dodoria with 4% difference yet Nappa can give Goku trouble despite being 100+% weaker? I'm sorry but that just doesn't add up.

[rereboy]

Just let me sum it up like this. Piccolo and the humans did a lot better against Nappa than Nappa did against Goku.

I strongly disagree.

Piccolo, the strongest of the Earthlings, was temporarily knocked out with just one elbow blow from Nappa, and that was the very first hit he received from Nappa (in the manga)! And the second strongest, Tenshinhan, got his arm ripped off at the very first hit from Nappa.

In comparison, Nappa took a lot of hits from Goku without any lasting effects, traded more or less equal blows with Goku when he concentrated, and his strongest attack was enough to nullify Goku's Kamehameha.

Nappa did a LOT better agaisnt Goku than any of the Earthlings against Nappa one on one. The only reason why the Earthlings weren't instantly destroyed was because they managed to use their numbers effectively to distract Nappa and make him concentrate on one of them at a time which allowed them to get some hits in him.

[TheMightyOzaru]

I've never really questioned the Daizenshuu levels, but I'm beginning to do so. Nappa rocking 6,000 would be preferable.

[rereboy]

I've never really questioned the Daizenshuu levels, but I'm beginning to do so. Nappa rocking 6,000 would be preferable.

Yes. Somewhere between 5000 and 6000 would be better.

[Darkprince410]

That's why I do feel that both Nappa and Vegeta are able to increase their strength through powering up, but just aren't able to drop their strength below a certain level. We see them powering up (which shouldn't be necessary if they can't alter their battle powers any), and Goku does indicate a power increase in Vegeta when the latter is powering up. It was more the Z Senshi's ability to suppress their battle power to really low levels that seemed to catch Nappa and Vegeta by surprise.

I feel that Nappa's base strength was 4,000 and was what he went around with most of the time, but if he needed to, he could increase his strength near 8,000, which would provide a reason for his ability to fight Goku on rather even terms.

[TheMightyOzaru]

Well, I've always had the philosophy that I would never disregard something a guidebook said unless it was in direct conflict with the manga. Nappa being at 4,000 seems to be in direct conflict with what Goku says soooooooooooo... It looks like I'm gonna have to make some changes to my list.

[Strife1]

Nappa is said to be 4,000. Piccolo is said to be 3,500 it just means that Nappa is capable of destroying opponents withing his PL range and matching ones outside of it. Nappa is a tank and he's extremely skillful.

[Darkprince410]

Well, I've always had the philosophy that I would never disregard something a guidebook said unless it was in direct conflict with the manga. Nappa being at 4,000 seems to be in direct conflict with what Goku says soooooooooooo... It looks like I'm gonna have to make some changes to my list.

I don't think it's wrong per say, just not the whole picture. Him being at 4,000 should be enough to explain the overall strength advantage he had over Piccolo and the others. It's just when it came to Goku that it proved to not be any good.

[90sDBZ]

I put him at close to 7000. He'd have to be close to Goku in power for that mouthblast to threaten Goku's life. Some people like to say it was an amped attack but that makes no sense as Raditz acted like he'd never seen or heard of amped attacks before when he fought Goku and Piccolo. If Nappa could do it then Raditz would know about it so that means Nappa really was strong enough to threaten Goku with his normal power and not an amped attack.

[rereboy]

That's why I do feel that both Nappa and Vegeta are able to increase their strength through powering up, but just aren't able to drop their strength below a certain level.

That makes no sense. Radditz, Nappa and Vegeta mention and imply multiple times that the Earthlings are special because they can INCREASE their power level. If they could also do it, why the surprise, why mention it?

Their powering up is just they concentrating to use their power more effectively. A scouter would read them at exactly the same level, but a fighter using Ki sensing would feel their power better when they are actively using it.

[Darkprince410]

That's why I do feel that both Nappa and Vegeta are able to increase their strength through powering up, but just aren't able to drop their strength below a certain level.

That makes no sense. Radditz, Nappa and Vegeta mention and imply multiple times that the Earthlings are special because they can INCREASE their power level. If they could also do it, why the surprise, why mention it?

Their powering up is just they concentrating to use their power more effectively. A scouter would read them at exactly the same level, but a fighter using Ki sensing would feel their power better when they are actively using it.

I don't see any comments from either Nappa or Vegeta to where they were really surprised about being able to just increase it, so much as being able to change it from really being able to suppress it to going to full power in an instant. They could control it to an extent by being able to raise it, but they weren't very skilled at controlling it to where they could actually lower it below their norms.

I ask this, if they can't fluctuate their battle powers, why would they need to power up? If neither Nappa or Vegeta could get any stronger from powering up, then there's no reason for them to go to such lengths to.

[Son_Gohan]

I think this is a good example of why Ki cannot truly be represented by set numbers and battle power being a flawed concept. A character's Ki would always be changing due to numerous factors, Nappa may have been 4000 at one point; doesn't mean it would stay that way throughout the battle. An aspect like his mental state would very well have a drastic affect on it.Toriyama expressed as much in the Super Exciting Guide.

[rereboy]

I don't see any comments from either Nappa or Vegeta to where they were really surprised about being able to just increase it,

Radditz sees Goku's power increasing during his Kamehameha and basically says "What?! What is this? They can change their power? They can become more powerful? This is not supposed to happen and it has completely surprised me".

Then Vegeta and Nappa get to Earth and Vegeta reminds Nappa constantly that the Earthlings are different than normal since they can actually be stronger than what their scouter indicates.

And then, when Vegeta sees that happen with his very eyes he basically says: "As we thought! They can change their power level"

Now tell me, how does this make any sense if Nappa and Vegeta are also able to increase their power level when they want? What would be the practical difference in a scouter reading between that and what the Earthlings did? The only logical conclusion is that Nappa and Vegeta can't fool the scouter, whether they are relaxed or fully using their power.

[DBZGTKOSDH]

I believe that Nappa was at 4000 against Piccolo & co, but powered-up at 8000 against Goku. Goku was kicking Nappa's ass before he powered-up, but after the power-up, it was an even fight, and Vegeta even said that the fight would take forever.

[Darkprince410]

I don't see any comments from either Nappa or Vegeta to where they were really surprised about being able to just increase it,

Radditz sees Goku's power increasing during his Kamehameha and basically says "What?! What is this? They can change their power? They can become more powerful? This is not supposed to happen and it has completely surprised me".

Then Vegeta and Nappa get to Earth and Vegeta reminds Nappa constantly that the Earthlings are different than normal since they can actually be stronger than what their scouter indicates.

And then, when Vegeta sees that happen with his very eyes he basically says: "As we thought! They can change their power level"

Now tell me, how does this make any sense if Nappa and Vegeta are also able to increase their power level when they want? What would be the practical difference in a scouter reading between that and what the Earthlings did? The only logical conclusion is that Nappa and Vegeta can't fool the scouter, whether they are relaxed or fully using their power.

The way that Nappa and Vegeta look down on Raditz because he's such a weakling (seemingly only interacting with him because he was the only other known living Saiya-jin), I don't see him having the same capabilities in combat (namely the ability to increase his battle power from a base point) that they do. If it was something they all shared the ability to do, then why do we not see Raditz "power up" at any point?

Both Nappa and Vegeta's comments still stem from their surprise of being able to suppress battle powers below their own "base", not just the ability to power up, and Vegeta's later comment was more a surprise as to how drastic their jumps can be from being suppressed to full strength, and more a confirmation of their abilities rather than shock about it.

As said, it's the ability to drop it below their base that was beyond their capabilities at the time. Like Nappa could go above 4,000 if he wanted to in battle, but he lacked the ability to suppress his strength below 4,000, so no matter what, that was as far as he could get. Whereas if he had the abilities that the Z Senshi had, he could suppress it down to 5 if he wanted to just to throw them off. Fundamentally I see no difference between what scouters can pick up and what ki sensing can pick up, other than scouters can give precise readings while ki sensing can just give estimates. If scouters were that much better than ki sensing, then Vegeta wouldn't have destroyed his on Namek once he learned how to sense ki. They do the same thing, just one's more accurate than the other.