DBZ Movie 8: a "false" attempt at Super Saiyan God?

[VegettoEX]

I'm editing this week's podcast where Herms and I discuss the new information that Battle of Gods has introduced to the Dragon World (in-universe information, that is... which is why I'm posting this here!). Needless to say, movie spoilers below.

So we know about Super Saiyan God now. You need five righteous Saiyans to pour their "light" into a sixth to create Super Saiyan God. We actually see an unsuccessful attempt at this within the movie itself before The Unborn Savior is brought into the mix, and it does result in Goku powering-up... just not to the degree that was needed to truly combat Beerus.

Hey, we've seen this before!

In DBZ Movie 8, the characters at the end all donate their energy to Goku, who is then able to suddenly defeat Broli. He clearly gained enormous strength to do so, since everyone else was basically pummeled to near-death just a few minutes earlier. What energy did they have left to give? Did they have tons more energy, it's just that they were beaten so bad they couldn't tap into it and put it into use? Or was the energy they donated something like this "light" from Battle of Gods, in that it seems to be more their "essence" of righteousness than raw energy?

Who knows? I don't really care about that part . What I think is neat is:

Well, did they basically create a "false" Super Saiyan God? You could kinda retcon it that way. Goku's still the target, and you have three Saiyans donating their energy toward him (Gohan, Trunks, Vegeta). You've got Piccolo in the mix there, so that's going to be a help just on a pure amount standpoint, but I don't see a Namekian contributing to Super Saiyan God in its most simple definition. So... three and a half? Instead of five?

It gets you everything you need along the way to creating Super Saiyan God, just without the right number. It got Goku precisely what we saw in Battle of Gods until Pan was tossed into the mix to actually complete the full power-up/transformation.

Thoughts? Cares? Anything? Anyone?

(There was also Piccolo and Gohan donating their energy to Goku on Namek, but that seemed too simple / basic to start hinting at something like this.)

[Kamiccolo9]

If I recall correctly, they did this a few times in GT as well, with the other Saiyans making SSJ4 Goku a lot stronger, when their powers should have been negligible compared to his.

And as far as the "donating power" thing goes, I think the first instance was in Movie 4, with Piccolo giving his energy to Goku in order to beat Slug.

The only other instance I can think of is Piccolo taking energy from Gohan and Krillin in order to stall for Goku while he's forming the Genki Dama against Freeza.


But, yeah, I can definitely see someone getting the idea for the Super Saiyan God ritual from watching Movie 8 or GT.

[VegettoEX]

If I recall correctly, they did this a few times in GT as well, with the other Saiyans making SSJ4 Goku a lot stronger, when their powers should have been negligible compared to his.

Ah, right. Good catch.

The only other instance I can think of is Piccolo taking energy from Gohan and Krillin in order to stall for Goku while he's forming the Genki Dama against Freeza.

Mmm, yeah. Maybe that's what I was thinking of. Did anyone donate to Goku there? I'm totally blanking/confusing things.

[Kamiccolo9]

If I recall correctly, they did this a few times in GT as well, with the other Saiyans making SSJ4 Goku a lot stronger, when their powers should have been negligible compared to his.

Ah, right. Good catch.

The only other instance I can think of is Piccolo taking energy from Gohan and Krillin in order to stall for Goku while he's forming the Genki Dama against Freeza.

Mmm, yeah. Maybe that's what I was thinking of. Did anyone donate to Goku there? I'm totally blanking/confusing things.

Thanks.

Well, aside from the energy going into the Genki Dama, no one gave anything to Goku there. Piccolo told Gohan and Krillin to give him what was left of their energy, and proceeded to surprise-kick Freeza away from Goku into the water, giving Goku enough time to finish gathering energy for the attack. I don't think anyone's ever directly given Goku (or any Saiyan) energy in the manga, aside from the last wish by Porunga in the Buu Arc, but I don't think that's what you're looking for

[SHINOBI-03]

And as far as the "donating power" thing goes, I think the first instance was in Movie 4, with Piccolo giving his energy to Goku in order to beat Slug.

The only other instance I can think of is Piccolo taking energy from Gohan and Krillin in order to stall for Goku while he's forming the Genki Dama against Freeza.

Let's not forget Goku donating his energy to Freeza after he got sliced.

[Kamiccolo9]

And as far as the "donating power" thing goes, I think the first instance was in Movie 4, with Piccolo giving his energy to Goku in order to beat Slug.

The only other instance I can think of is Piccolo taking energy from Gohan and Krillin in order to stall for Goku while he's forming the Genki Dama against Freeza.

Let's not forget Goku donating his energy to Freeza after he got sliced.

Ah, true. I had forgotten about that one.

[90sDBZ]

It was very interesting how 3 base saiyans and a namek who had all been pummelled by Broly could take Goku from getting stomped to one-shotting Broly. From an in-universe standpoint I think there must have been more going on than a simple ki transfer. What's interesting to note is that the ki they give is green which was also the colour when Piccolo gave his ki to Goku in movie 4.

Another thing that was interesting in GT was when they gave Goku ki against Syn Shenron he briefly appeared as an Oozaru even though he'd already demonstrated several times that he didn't need to do that to go SS4. In that situation he also ended up in a state that looked identical to his regular SS4 state but was much stronger which I find similar to in BoG(or going by what I've heard about the movie) when he ends up fighting in a much stronger version of his regular Super Saiyan.

[Zephyr]

you have three Saiyans donating their energy toward him (Gohan, Trunks, Vegeta)...So... three and a half? Instead of five?

I'm not sure Vegeta could really qualify just yet as meeting the "righteous" requirement for the ritual, if that counts for anything in the discussion.

[Polyphase Avatron]

There should be a Namek God form

[RandomGuy96]

Piccolo being able to empower Goku enough to let him dispatch Slug in one blow, when Slug was previously kicking him around effortlessly, tells me that there's nothing more complicated at work here than "in the movies, donating energy = EXTREME POWER".

[rereboy]

There should be a Namek God form

Its called Super Kami Guru.

[SaiyanZ]

The way Goku was walking towards Broly at the end of the movie was very Kenshiro-esque, with the shirt off and the background all sent to hell; can that warrant him as SSJ God?

[90sDBZ]

Piccolo being able to empower Goku enough to let him dispatch Slug in one blow, when Slug was previously kicking him around effortlessly, tells me that there's nothing more complicated at work here than "in the movies, donating energy = EXTREME POWER".

Well it's possible that Piccolo's ki merely healed Goku which allowed him to get a zenkai and then use an unknown higher level of Kaioken to win. Zenkai's were certainly still a big deal at that part of the series. And it's also possible that Piccolo had already merged with Nail in that movie which would make him stronger than Goku before he entered the healing chamber which means that Piccolo could have been stronger than Goku in the movie and his Ki made Goku stronger than before.

[Rukura]

Huh. So many people point out the possible relationship between Z Movie 4's False Super Saiyan and Super Saiyan God, that the "Saiya power" donations from Movie 8 never crossed my mind.

Personally, when I saw Battle of Gods, I kept seeing possible parallels with Dragon Ball GT. While it never goes out of its way to directly set up the events in GT, it did seem to allow itself some hints that can be used, should the viewer subscribe to the thought, to be expanded upon in it:

- Pilaf & co. finally got to wish for something with the Dragon Balls!...which backfired and turned them into kids lol. In Episode 1 of GT, they're really old. Who's to say they couldn't have gathered the Dragon Balls again to turn back to normal and turned out really old instead?

- What if the Super Saiyan God form we see in Battle of Gods isn't a complete form?
In the movie, nobody seemed to know WHAT Super Saiyan God actually is or looks like. They used the method that Shenlong somehow knew about and, since a physical change with a power-up occured, they assumed that was it and rolled with it. In Movie 8, there were only 3 other Saiyans so only a temporary power up occured (EXACTLY like the first attempt in Battle of Gods).

What if Super Saiyan God is an incomplete or in-between form, like we had with Super Saiyan Grade 2 and 3? That also involved a physical change with a power-up (that also wasn't enough to defeat the adversary at hand).

In the flashback-ish portrail of Shenlong's explanation, the original Super Saiyan God was seen as having a tail (like every other Saiyan) but was also shown as a red, furry silhouette. This could be the next complete form after Super Saiyan 3, so we could still keep Goku's incomplete form from Battle of Gods as "Super Saiyan God" and just call this complete form "Super Saiyan 4" instead. (It would also make more sense of Kaioshin somehow knowing that what Goku really needs is his tail back to fight Baby.) Which leads into my third and final point:

- Super Saiyan 4 also requires a ritual to achieve full power, by gathering the Saiya Power from other Saiyans. Coincidentally, they also used Pan for that. Except she didn't just exist for a few weeks, inside of Videl, at that point, anymore.

[Gyt Kaliba]

I'm not sure I really have much to add in terms of 'theorizing' goes, but now that it's been brought up...it's weird. What happened in movie 8 has actually never bugged me, but much as I like Battle of Gods, everything about how Super Saiyan God comes into being still rubs me the wrong way a little bit. And I can't for the life of me explain why that is. Is it the use of the word 'ritual' and making it into some more grandiose thing that bugs me, or something else that I can't quite place my finger on? Maybe I just always looked at what happens in movie 8 as more of a power sharing incident than what's done as a ritual here.

But then I think back to when the same kind of thing happens in GT, and it's a lot easier to see how that's similar to Super Saiyan God's powerup than what movie 8 had (at least to me it's more clear), but that still doesn't bug me.

I just can't figure out what it is about the 'ritual' thing that irks me so much. I'm not religious, so it's nothing like that. I like what the form looks like now that I've gotten used to it. And I love all of the stuff it brings to the table once it's achieved. It's just the actual act of getting six pure Saiyans together for a ritual that doesn't sit right with me, and if I could at least figure out what it was that irked me about it, then I could move on. But I can't figure it out, so it just sits there and kind of festers.

[JulieYBM]

I'unno. The scene in Moetsukiro!! Nessen · Ressen · Chou-Gekisen is really no different than a Genki-dama scene, I think. The supply of ki just so happens to be from four other people. Even then I can't remember off hand if Gokuu was asking for ki or something else. Dragon Ball GT is where things are actually somewhat interesting. When Baby coined 'Saiya Power' (or was it 'Saiya ki'?) it felt like Series Organizer Matsui Aya was actually going for something new. Baby transforming through the absorbing of Saiya ki seems like it might served as a basis for the Super Saiyan God concept. Perhaps someone should give Watanabe a poke and see if this is the case? This concept was used again for Super Saiyan 4 Gokuu in episodes #38 and #58, I believe. In episode #38 the idea was simply for Gohan, Goten, Pan, and Trunks to 'revive' Super Saiyan 4. In Dragon Ball GT episode #58 I believe the idea was to 'surpass' Super Saiyan 4.

[Gyt Kaliba]

In episode #38 the idea was simply for Gohan, Goten, Pan, and Trunks to 'revive' Super Saiyan 4. In Dragon Ball GT episode #58 I believe the idea was to 'surpass' Super Saiyan 4.

Correct me if I'm wrong, didn't Oob give his power to Goku at that point in time as well? Or was he trying to hold off...I have to say it cuz I can never remember the right names, "Omega Shenron", while they gave Goku energy? I almost want to say Oob did both of these at some point or another.

[JulieYBM]

In episode #38 the idea was simply for Gohan, Goten, Pan, and Trunks to 'revive' Super Saiyan 4. In Dragon Ball GT episode #58 I believe the idea was to 'surpass' Super Saiyan 4.

Correct me if I'm wrong, didn't Oob give his power to Goku at that point in time as well? Or was he trying to hold off...I have to say it cuz I can never remember the right names, "Omega Shenron", while they gave Goku energy? I almost want to say Oob did both of these at some point or another.

I'm not near my collection right now, but I think Oob might have been around during the fight with Yi Xing Long. I can't remember if Bra ever gave Saiya Power to Gokuu, though.

[DBZGTKOSDH]

Let's see the cases where someone gave energy to someone else (Super Saiyan God & Genki Dama are not included):

• Kuririn & Gohan gave energy to Piccolo to restore some of his energy.
• SS Goku gave energy to Freeza to restore some of his energy.
• Piccolo gave energy to Goku to restore some of his energy, which allowed Goku to use Kaio-ken x100 on Slug.
• Gohan, Vegeta, Trunks, and Piccolo gave energy to Goku, making him much stronger, stronger than Broli, who was stronger than him before that.
• SS Gohan, SS Goten, SS Trunks, and SS Vegeta gave energy to SS Goku, making him much stronger, perhaps stronger than his Super Saiyan 3 form.
• SS(2?) Gohan, SS Goten, SS Trunks, and Pan gave energy to SS4 Goku, restoring him to full power.
• SS(2?) Gohan, SS Goten, and SS Trunks gave SS4 Goku all of their energy, making him much stronger, stronger than Yi Xing Long, who was stronger than him before that.

So, how do I see it? When someone gives his energy to someone, the combined energy gets amplified. Gohan, Trunks, Vegeta, and Piccolo were in a mess when they gave their energy to a beaten up Goku, and they made him stronger than Broli. SS(2?) Gohan, SS Goten, SS Trunks, and Pan combined are far weaker than SS4 Goku, who is supposed to be about as strong as Vegetto, yet not only they restored him to full power the first time, they even made him even stronger than he is alone. The 5 Super Saiyans also gave their energy to SS Goku, and Goku became so strong that Kuririn thought that Goku must be a god if he is so strong, implying that he is stronger than his SS3 (but then again, it's not the first time someone makes a mistake because his feelings clouded his judgment, so let's not take that as a fact).

[TheDevilsCorpse]

So, how do I see it? When someone gives his energy to someone, the combined energy gets amplified. Gohan, Trunks, Vegeta, and Piccolo were in a mess when they gave their energy to a beaten up Goku, and they made him stronger than Broli. SS(2?) Gohan, SS Goten, SS Trunks, and Pan combined are far weaker than SS4 Goku, who is supposed to be about as strong as Vegetto, yet not only they restored him to full power the first time, they even made him even stronger than he is alone. The 5 Super Saiyans also gave their energy to SS Goku, and Goku became so strong that Kuririn thought that Goku must be a god if he is so strong, implying that he is stronger than his SS3 (but then again, it's not the first time someone makes a mistake because his feelings clouded his judgment, so let's not take that as a fact).

I'm not sure the combined energy needs to get amplified. In the case that we're dealing with Saiyans, which is pretty much the standard, they don't need to even come close to matching the characters full power. The Super Saiyan forms are multipliers. Just restoring Goku's base and then increasing it a little would give him a tremendous boost afterwards with the transformation.

For example, say Goku and the other hero Saiyans started the battle in Movie 8 with a hypothetical max base form power of 10 million. As the fight dragged on, all of them were beaten down to about 30% of their power. If almost all of that power was sent to Goku, even ignoring Piccolo and his much larger base power for right now, that already totals up to 12 million. Tat's a pretty decent increase at Super Saiyan. This continues with the others as well, even using GT logic where if you actually agree that base Goku may be leagues ahead of everyone else's transformed states, they only need to channel their ki into his base pool and let his transformations do most of the work.