Rationalizations for Goku's SS God Power and Transformation

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Rationalizations for Goku's SS God Power and Transformation

Post by Kakarot88 » Wed Dec 04, 2013 1:11 pm

What is your explanation for how Goku was not only able to fight Beerus when the SS God form timed out but also how he was able to transform in the finale without the ritual?

My “inuniverse” Rationalization of how Son Goku was able to harness and absorb the Godlike Ki in Battle of Gods and then Transform without the ritual:

In Battle of Gods, the first time Goku was transformed through the help of his friends and family. Thus, his body and spirit felt and learned the god like ki. The feeling or memories of that godlike ki were akin to his dormant memories of his power when he turned into an Oozaru that he had when he drank the Super God Water during the Piccolo Daimao Arc. According to the Super Exciting Guide the memories of that power released it's dormancy or at the very least the memories associated power with the oozaru form. Either way memory (or ki/physical memory) is what contributed to Goku's boost back then, and I rationalize is the same association that attributed to his absorbiton of the God Like power in BOG or at least allowing him to be able to harness that power despite the transformation itself timing out.

Consequently, while battling Beerus, although the form timed out, Goku was able to retain much of that power because he had the feeling of that Ki within him and had absorbed the power. This could also explain why, Goku in the finale, is able to reappear in the form with red hair and exciting aura: he had the memories and the ki was triggered by memories of the ritual and encouragement of his friends as that is what Toriyama has said Ki can come from.

I base my reasoning simply on the manga itself and the Super Exciting guide's 2 explicit postulates:

Proposition 1: Memory of Power can be used to channel power and achieve higher status:
Herms wrote:The entry on the Super God Water explains why that image of an Oozaru appeared when Goku’s power awakened: it says that the poison triggered a memory within Goku associating the tremendous power sleeping inside him with the Oozaru (or possibly just that it triggered a memory sleeping inside him associating tremendous power with the Oozaru; I’m not too sure which it means).

Proposition 2: Ki enhancement can come from courage and others encouragement:
Herms wrote:What’s the secret of winning in battle?
When it comes to battle, the most important thing is ki size, and its control. Of course, “ki” also includes such spiritual power as energy/vigor [genki] and bravery [yuuki], and being in one’s right mind [shouki; could also be translated as "true character"] (note 11). There’s a limit to physical strength, no matter how much you toughen it up, and the only way to overcome that it is with “ki”. I think that it was through turning ki into formidable power that Goku drew closer to being the strongest warrior in the universe.

Note 11: Genki and yuuki, shouki
The word “energy” [genki; also “health”, “vigor”, etc] is well known, but if you had an illness [byouki], would you not have energy? That’s difficult to answer. There are some people who have a healthy body but no energy, but there are also some people who are full of energy even when ill. What’s more, even with people who have about the same amount of power, there are some who, when attacked by Piccolo Daimao for instance, will stand firm and tough it out, while others will run away trembling in fear. If you think this way, you might understand how different kinds of “ki” are very important in battle. In the world of Chinese kenpo disciplines such as Tai Chi, much importance is placed on the training and control of ki.

Although in “DragonBall” the wizard Babidi had invented machines that measured and extracted “ki”, modern science is unable to measure “ki” or store it anywhere. However, there are times when people support you, and give you energy [genki] and courage [yuuki]. Though it can’t be seen, what is present then is “ki”.
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Re: Rationalizations for Goku's SS God Power and Transformat

Post by KentalSSJ6 » Wed Dec 04, 2013 3:12 pm

The only way I could make sense of it was that Goku made SSJG's power a permanent addition to his base form. Meaning Base Goku = SSJG Goku. Beerus calling Goku a genius only seems to further imply that Goku absorbed SSJG's power into his own body.
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Re: Rationalizations for Goku's SS God Power and Transformat

Post by Chuquita » Wed Dec 04, 2013 3:15 pm

I could swear there was a recently-uploaded interview on Kanzenshuu where Toriyama mentions something about it.
EDIT: Found it
Kanzenshuu translation of BOG animanga Toriyama interview wrote:I think you’ll understand if you watch [the movie], but Goku has already absorbed [Super Saiyan] God’s power and made it his own, so there is no need for him to transform into [Super Saiyan] God.
Source: http://www.kanzenshuu.com/translations/ ... -toriyama/

The way I interpret that in my own head-canon is that after Goku absorbs it, he's got more control over the intricacies of the form; like turning on ssjg power is one switch and turning on its changes to his appearance is another switch. He can use one part of it without the other or he could use both at the same time.
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Re: Rationalizations for Goku's SS God Power and Transformat

Post by ZombieVito » Wed Dec 04, 2013 3:29 pm

The problem I see with Goku retaining the power is that it breaks the ending for the manga. The guy was excited to fight Uub (an ant to SSJG).

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Re: Rationalizations for Goku's SS God Power and Transformat

Post by Kamiccolo9 » Wed Dec 04, 2013 3:38 pm

Zombie wrote:The problem I see with Goku retaining the power is that it breaks the ending for the manga. The guy was excited to fight Uub (an ant to SSJG).
At this point, I'm just counting on a sequel to this movie resulting in Goku giving up the god power. There's still a five year gap for this to happen :P
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Re: Rationalizations for Goku's SS God Power and Transformat

Post by Kakarot88 » Wed Dec 04, 2013 3:51 pm

Zombie wrote:The problem I see with Goku retaining the power is that it breaks the ending for the manga. The guy was excited to fight Uub (an ant to SSJG).
It makes sense if you think that is Uub's base power versus Goku's base power which is now on at minimum Kid Buu level so he is excited to unlock Uub's potential and enhance his, meaning Goku's, own. By the end of Z Goku's pecs etx are massive so for him to have massively more power makes sense to me.
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Re: Rationalizations for Goku's SS God Power and Transformat

Post by KentalSSJ6 » Wed Dec 04, 2013 3:59 pm

Kamiccolo9 wrote:
Zombie wrote:The problem I see with Goku retaining the power is that it breaks the ending for the manga. The guy was excited to fight Uub (an ant to SSJG).
At this point, I'm just counting on a sequel to this movie resulting in Goku giving up the god power. There's still a five year gap for this to happen :P
I really hope so. I can only hope any and all things SSJG related end up being removed.
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Re: Rationalizations for Goku's SS God Power and Transformat

Post by Polyphase Avatron » Wed Dec 04, 2013 4:58 pm

I saw it as sort of like when a light bulb burns out, if you turn the switch off and then on again, it will sometimes flash briefly again before going out. In other words, Goku's SSJG form ran out, although he was able to keep the majority of the power in SSJ form, but when he was severely stressed he managed to retain a brief flash of the true SSJG power.
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Re: Rationalizations for Goku's SS God Power and Transformat

Post by KentalSSJ6 » Wed Dec 04, 2013 5:09 pm

Polyphase Avatron wrote:I saw it as sort of like when a light bulb burns out, if you turn the switch off and then on again, it will sometimes flash briefly again before going out. In other words, Goku's SSJG form ran out, although he was able to keep the majority of the power in SSJ form, but when he was severely stressed he managed to retain a brief flash of the true SSJG power.
So basically it was a last second adrenaline rush.
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Re: Rationalizations for Goku's SS God Power and Transformat

Post by Kamiccolo9 » Wed Dec 04, 2013 5:14 pm

Polyphase Avatron wrote:I saw it as sort of like when a light bulb burns out, if you turn the switch off and then on again, it will sometimes flash briefly again before going out. In other words, Goku's SSJG form ran out, although he was able to keep the majority of the power in SSJ form, but when he was severely stressed he managed to retain a brief flash of the true SSJG power.
I like the idea, and it's what I would go with, except I'm fairly certain that Toriyama has said that Goku kept the SSJG power. There was a stir among this forum about a month ago about that, I think.
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Re: Rationalizations for Goku's SS God Power and Transformat

Post by Polyphase Avatron » Thu Dec 05, 2013 7:44 pm

I think what he said was that Goku can use the power in normal SSJ form. Beerus said that when SSJG power expired Goku's power "didn't decrease significantly", implying it did decrease a bit (maybe like 5%). So Goku can go to that pseudo-SSJG state at will, but would need 5 other Saiyans to power him up to true SSJG again.
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Re: Rationalizations for Goku's SS God Power and Transformat

Post by DBZGTKOSDH » Fri Dec 06, 2013 4:12 am

This is how I think that Super Saiyan God works:

Goku transformed into a Super Saiyan God by borrowing the power of 5 other righteous Saiyans, but the form's power-up is a stable multiplier and isn't affected by the power of the other Saiyans, and it's also the most powerful form.

In this form, Goku can measure the power of other gods by sensing their ki, and mortals can't measure his ki through ki sensing or scouters.

Once he is transformed, he had less than 5 minutes in that form (in real-time, the form lasted for 7 minutes, but most of the fight was in "slow" motion rather than real-time motion). If he had used those minutes to sit around or fight weaker opponents (like the previous God), then after the time was up, he would had lost the form & its power. However, Goku was having a hard fighting during all this time, which is like doing hard training, and managed to absorb the power of the form through that fight. So, if the Saiyan is training or having an even fight when in that form, then he can absorb the power of the form in his base, with an insignificant decrease in power.

Goku (and any other Saiyan God) can also power-up into Super Saiyan, which gives him an insignificant boost in power, but he (and any other Saiyan God) can't transform into any other form Super Saiyan form (PSS, SSG2, SSG3, LSS, SS2, SS3, LSS3 and SS4, or Ultimate) or even into Oozaru (and Golden Oozaru) if he had a tail, but he can transform into a Super Saiyan God again (which still comes with a time limit) to get another insignificant increase (base ~ SS ~ SSGod), which grants him the ability to absorb ki blasts & take all the damage to his body, in order to protect his surroundings from the explosion. That's because his Super Saiyan God requires a righteous heart, and base & Super Saiyan Full Power are the only forms that don't affect the Saiyan's heart, unlike the other forms and Ultimate (base & SSFP are also the only forms that can participate into the ritual, non-mastered Super Saiyans & Ultimate Gohan can't participate because of the impure heart, and if Goku hadn't mastered the SS form, he wouldn't be able to transform when using the God power).

However, base Goku is not "trapped" in his godly power. He can either activate the God power in his base (by displaying the blue CGI aura we saw when he turned SSGod for a 2nd time), and transform into SS or SSGod, or use his normal power, and transform normally into any form he can turn into.


Now, as for the 28th TB arc & GT:

After killing Majin Boo, Goku wished for Boo to be reincarnated into a good guy, so that Goku can train more & beat him on his own this time. Ten years later, Majin Boo has been reincarnated into a the 10-year old Earthling Oob, who has Pure Boo's power (all thanks to Enma Daio), but hasn't trained in his life, so he can't control that power & put it in full use. He can only use his true power when he gets angry, but while someone will feel power equal with that of Boo, his hits are not as strong because he can't use ki & control his power. Which is why Goku decided to take Oob & train him.

Goku, however, learned about that after their fight. Before the fight, he was expecting a guy at Pure Boo's level, and he wasn't sure if he could win against Oob, which implies that SS3 Goku hasn't gotten all that much stronger after those years, since they were almost even 10 years before that. But while Oob met Goku's expectations in his power, he didn't met Goku's expectations in his skill. Which allowed Goku to fight evenly in base (even though Oob had clearly the advantage, since he could tank every hit from Goku, while Goku could barely dodge & tank the attacks).

But wait, Goku has turned into a God now, why would he be excited for fighting Oob? Because the God power isn't his own power, and didn't come from his training after all these years. He borrowed the power from others, and managed to make it his own, but this isn't what Goku was dreaming when he wished for Majin Boo to be reborn. SS3 Goku lost to Boo, so he wanted to train hard for these years, so that he can fight Boo (now Oob) again, and beat him this time, in order to test himself. Using his God power not only would grant him a 1-hit-KO & an uninteresting fight, but it would also leave him unsatisfied, since this isn't the power he achieved through years of training.

As for where the God power & form went in GT, the only explanation I can think of is that he lost the ability to control it when he turned into a child, like he lost control of Shunkan Ido & SS3. But I guess that after he grew up again into an adult, he regained control of the power.


Finally, as for how Goku would use the power against someone on SSGod level (like Beers), I guess that after activating the power, he would use base for the warm-up, Super Saiyan for when he gets all-out, and Super Saiyan God in the climax of the fight or in case he has to absorb a ki blast.
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Superman is, and always has been, a symbol for truth, justice, and upstanding moral fortitude–a role model and leader as much as a fighter. The more down-to-earth Goku has no illusions about being responsible for maintaining social order, or for setting some kind of moral example for the entire world. Goku is simply a martial artist who’s devoted his life toward perfecting his fighting skills and other abilities. Though never shy about risking his life to save either one person or the entire world, he just doesn’t believe that the balance of the world rests in any way on his shoulders, and he has no need to shape any part of it in his image. Goku is an idealist, and believes that there is some good in everyone, but he is unconcerned with the big picture of the world…unless it has to do with some kind of fight. Politics, society, law and order don’t have much bearing on his life, but he’s a man who knows right from wrong.

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Re: Rationalizations for Goku's SS God Power and Transformat

Post by FireLordZuko » Fri Dec 06, 2013 11:55 am

I just assume it's around 1,000 times stronger than SSJ3. That's not had to believe seeing as how it's a god form.
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Re: Rationalizations for Goku's SS God Power and Transformat

Post by RandomGuy96 » Sat Dec 07, 2013 6:17 am

What is your explanation for how Goku was not only able to fight Beerus when the SS God form timed out but also how he was able to transform in the finale without the ritual?
Because it's a movie and he's Goku.
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Herms wrote:The fact that the ridiculous power inflation is presented so earnestly makes me just roll my eyes and snicker. Like with Freeza, where he starts off over 10 times stronger than all his henchmen except Ginyu (because...well, just because), then we find out he can transform and get even more powerful, and then he reveals he can transform two more times, before finally coming out with the fact that he hasn't even been using anywhere near 50% of his power. Oh, and he can survive in the vacuum of space. All this stuff is just presented as the way Freeza is, without even an attempt at rationalizing it, yet the tone dictates we're supposed to take all this silly grasping at straws as thrilling danger. So I guess I don't really take the power inflation in the Boo arc seriously, but I don't take the power inflation in earlier arcs seriously either, so there's no net loss of seriousness. I think a silly story presented as serious is harder to accept than a silly story presented as silly.

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Re: Rationalizations for Goku's SS God Power and Transformat

Post by valfranx » Tue Dec 10, 2013 9:44 am

"Goku's ideal to become stronger through training has not changed since the first chapter, when he decided to accompany Bulma to find the Dragon Balls.

And although he has become the strongest fighter in the universe, Goku's dream
to get stronger knows no bounds.
Goku, who does not change, is one of the
main attractions of Dragon Ball."
http://static.comicvine.com/uploads/ori ... -193cs.jpg
Source: Dragon Ball The Legend of Manga
http://static.comicvine.com/uploads/ori ... -02xho.jpg



remember that not exist ssj god. in dbgt, the new continuity replaces dbgt, gt and turns into an alternate universe.

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Re: Rationalizations for Goku's SS God Power and Transformat

Post by DBZGTKOSDH » Tue Dec 10, 2013 9:52 am

valfranx wrote:remember that not exist ssj god. in dbgt, the new continuity replaces dbgt, gt and turns into an alternate universe.
BoG & GT are placed in the same continuity in the official timeline.
James Teal (Animerica 1996) wrote:When you think about it, there are a number of similarities between the Chinese-inspired Son Goku and that most American of superhero icons, Superman. Both are aliens sent to Earth shortly after birth to escape the destruction of their homeworlds; both possess super-strength, flight, super-speed, heightened senses and the ability to cast energy blasts. But the crucial difference between them lies not only in how they view the world, but in how the world views them.

Superman is, and always has been, a symbol for truth, justice, and upstanding moral fortitude–a role model and leader as much as a fighter. The more down-to-earth Goku has no illusions about being responsible for maintaining social order, or for setting some kind of moral example for the entire world. Goku is simply a martial artist who’s devoted his life toward perfecting his fighting skills and other abilities. Though never shy about risking his life to save either one person or the entire world, he just doesn’t believe that the balance of the world rests in any way on his shoulders, and he has no need to shape any part of it in his image. Goku is an idealist, and believes that there is some good in everyone, but he is unconcerned with the big picture of the world…unless it has to do with some kind of fight. Politics, society, law and order don’t have much bearing on his life, but he’s a man who knows right from wrong.

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Re: Rationalizations for Goku's SS God Power and Transformat

Post by valfranx » Tue Dec 10, 2013 10:11 am

DBZGTKOSDH wrote:
valfranx wrote:remember that not exist ssj god. in dbgt, the new continuity replaces dbgt, gt and turns into an alternate universe.
BoG & GT are placed in the same continuity in the official timeline.

Yes, in time lines alternatives(dimensions) of the universe 7. dbgt can exist in the universe 7, more in alternate dimensions, second my sources:

dragon ball forever: (time lines=dimensions)
http://www.abload.de/img/080bygoku6384qnj5p.jpg

Daizenshuu 7: (exist others time lines)
http://www.abload.de/img/07-034i6qqd.jpg

Dragon Ball shin budokai(time lines=dimensions)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KBqsr0WQjB4

dragon ball-online: (time lines, will explode the universe 7)
credits: TheDevilsCorpse
Seventh Universe in Chouzenshuu 4′s locations dictionary:

Refers to the universe where Goku and co. live. The film “Battle of Gods” reveals that there are 12 universes in total, and Dragon Ball takes place in the 7th of these universes. Perhaps there are even more formidable foes in the as-yet-unseen universes.
credits: Herms

conclusion: time lines=//=parallel universe. Another difference is that travelling to a parallel universe involves some type of inter-dimensional travel whereas alternative histories involve some type of time travel.

Image

about goku. so I might as well argue that Goku was suppressed in their struggle with uub. he was not wearing ssjgod. so that this guide has a scan that says uub was near the level of kidbuu
Last edited by valfranx on Tue Dec 10, 2013 10:42 am, edited 3 times in total.

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Re: Rationalizations for Goku's SS God Power and Transformat

Post by DBZGTKOSDH » Tue Dec 10, 2013 10:13 am

valfranx wrote:so I might as well argue that Goku was suppressed in their struggle with uub. he was not wearing ssjgod. so that this guide has a scan that says uub was near the level of kidbuu.
I've already posted my theory on how it can work.
After killing Majin Boo, Goku wished for Boo to be reincarnated into a good guy, so that Goku can train more & beat him on his own this time. Ten years later, Majin Boo has been reincarnated into a the 10-year old Earthling Oob, who has Pure Boo's power (all thanks to Enma Daio), but hasn't trained in his life, so he can't control that power & put it in full use. He can only use his true power when he gets angry, but while someone will feel power equal with that of Boo, his hits are not as strong because he can't use ki & control his power. Which is why Goku decided to take Oob & train him.

Goku, however, learned about that after their fight. Before the fight, he was expecting a guy at Pure Boo's level, and he wasn't sure if he could win against Oob, which implies that SS3 Goku hasn't gotten all that much stronger after those years, since they were almost even 10 years before that. But while Oob met Goku's expectations in his power, he didn't met Goku's expectations in his skill. Which allowed Goku to fight evenly in base (even though Oob had clearly the advantage, since he could tank every hit from Goku, while Goku could barely dodge & tank the attacks).

But wait, Goku has turned into a God now, why would he be excited for fighting Oob? Because the God power isn't his own power, and didn't come from his training after all these years. He borrowed the power from others, and managed to make it his own, but this isn't what Goku was dreaming when he wished for Majin Boo to be reborn. SS3 Goku lost to Boo, so he wanted to train hard for these years, so that he can fight Boo (now Oob) again, and beat him this time, in order to test himself. Using his God power not only would grant him a 1-hit-KO & an uninteresting fight, but it would also leave him unsatisfied, since this isn't the power he achieved through years of training.

As for where the God power & form went in GT, the only explanation I can think of is that he lost the ability to control it when he turned into a child, like he lost control of Shunkan Ido & SS3. But I guess that after he grew up again into an adult, he regained control of the power.
James Teal (Animerica 1996) wrote:When you think about it, there are a number of similarities between the Chinese-inspired Son Goku and that most American of superhero icons, Superman. Both are aliens sent to Earth shortly after birth to escape the destruction of their homeworlds; both possess super-strength, flight, super-speed, heightened senses and the ability to cast energy blasts. But the crucial difference between them lies not only in how they view the world, but in how the world views them.

Superman is, and always has been, a symbol for truth, justice, and upstanding moral fortitude–a role model and leader as much as a fighter. The more down-to-earth Goku has no illusions about being responsible for maintaining social order, or for setting some kind of moral example for the entire world. Goku is simply a martial artist who’s devoted his life toward perfecting his fighting skills and other abilities. Though never shy about risking his life to save either one person or the entire world, he just doesn’t believe that the balance of the world rests in any way on his shoulders, and he has no need to shape any part of it in his image. Goku is an idealist, and believes that there is some good in everyone, but he is unconcerned with the big picture of the world…unless it has to do with some kind of fight. Politics, society, law and order don’t have much bearing on his life, but he’s a man who knows right from wrong.

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Hugo Boss
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Re: Rationalizations for Goku's SS God Power and Transformat

Post by Hugo Boss » Thu Dec 12, 2013 6:05 pm

DBZGTKOSDH wrote:This is how I think that Super Saiyan God works:
Finally, as for how Goku would use the power against someone on SSGod level (like Beers), I guess that after activating the power, he would use base for the warm-up, Super Saiyan for when he gets all-out, and Super Saiyan God in the climax of the fight or in case he has to absorb a ki blast.
Though I don't think he was planning to use his power like this. He was fighting Beerus without noticing the difference between the three forms, I would use the excitement as an excuse, but I think he had almost the same battle power since he lost [Super Saiyan] God's traits and after becoming Super Saiyan again. Goku didn't even know what he did, I assume he used [Super Saiyan] God's power unconsciousnessly to supress Beerus' ultimate attack.

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DBZGTKOSDH
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Re: Rationalizations for Goku's SS God Power and Transformat

Post by DBZGTKOSDH » Thu Dec 12, 2013 7:41 pm

Hugo Boss wrote:Though I don't think he was planning to use his power like this. He was fighting Beerus without noticing the difference between the three forms, I would use the excitement as an excuse, but I think he had almost the same battle power since he lost [Super Saiyan] God's traits and after becoming Super Saiyan again. Goku didn't even know what he did, I assume he used [Super Saiyan] God's power unconsciousnessly to supress Beerus' ultimate attack.
Well, I was referring to Goku's hypothetical battles after BoG, since at that point he should know everything about Super Saiyan God. I wasn't saying he used it like that against Beers, since everything happened by chance at that fight.
James Teal (Animerica 1996) wrote:When you think about it, there are a number of similarities between the Chinese-inspired Son Goku and that most American of superhero icons, Superman. Both are aliens sent to Earth shortly after birth to escape the destruction of their homeworlds; both possess super-strength, flight, super-speed, heightened senses and the ability to cast energy blasts. But the crucial difference between them lies not only in how they view the world, but in how the world views them.

Superman is, and always has been, a symbol for truth, justice, and upstanding moral fortitude–a role model and leader as much as a fighter. The more down-to-earth Goku has no illusions about being responsible for maintaining social order, or for setting some kind of moral example for the entire world. Goku is simply a martial artist who’s devoted his life toward perfecting his fighting skills and other abilities. Though never shy about risking his life to save either one person or the entire world, he just doesn’t believe that the balance of the world rests in any way on his shoulders, and he has no need to shape any part of it in his image. Goku is an idealist, and believes that there is some good in everyone, but he is unconcerned with the big picture of the world…unless it has to do with some kind of fight. Politics, society, law and order don’t have much bearing on his life, but he’s a man who knows right from wrong.

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