Power Limit

[TheMajinRedComet]

Do you think that it is possible to continue to get stronger forever with training?
(For example) Could vegeta after buu saga just keep training at SSJ1/SSJ2 (which ever one you believe he was at) until he was as strong as a SSJ3 but at SSJ2, could a person overcome transformation level though training

[Li'l Lemmy]

I don't know, Comet. It's an intriguing theory, and I do think that with experience a Saiyan can draw on the powers of transformation without actually transforming (i.e., Buu saga base-form Goku > Freeza saga Super Saiyan Goku), but . . . that's with experience.

Sure, Vegeta could train and train and train until he could wield the SSJ3 power while at SSJ2 . . . but I think in order to do that, he has to actually reach SSJ3 and become acclimated to that distinct level, and then perhaps afterward he'd be able to reach into the ability of SSJ3 without the necessity of transforming. (Or perhaps that's exactly what you meant?) If we assume that to discover the higher forms requires the Saiyan to overcome some boundary or limit before reaching it, I don't think he can tap into that power and use it effectively until he's overcome said limit and trained beyond it . . . but then, that's just me.

Gohan was able to draw on his incredible powers at a young age without actually transforming, for example, but what you want Vegeta to do sounds considerably different than making use of short, uncontrolled bursts.

Interesting side-note: I think Toriyama-sensei himself was heard to say once that he believed there was a physical limit to how strong a person can become.

[*PINHEAD*]

Well, of course one could become stronger through training. My view of the whole Super Saiyan transformations (as I've posted before in many threads) is that it's basically a sort of power "reserve" that one can tap into, not necessarily just a specific boost. A Saiyan can train to increase his base form, and with that, if he taps into his "reserve," it'll be more powerful than before--such as Son Goku's first Super Saiyan form, which is considerably more powerful during the Buu story arc than in the Freeza saga.

[Dayspring]

I think it takes something "unnatural" to make you reach and/or break your limit.

Saiyans have infinite potential, ergo there's nothing to stop them from doing what you mention. However, Vegeta himself stated that he reached his limit when training in preparation for the androids. It was him getting pissed at this fact that caused him to go SSJ. I think going SSJ revamped his limit, or at the very least, made it possible so that he can continue training inhis SSJ state.

I think for Saiyans, there is a limit one can achieve, but it would take a wound/zenkai experience to change their physiology so that they can start gaining more strength again through training. For Vegeta, the change might have come under the SSJ addition, but I also feel near-deaths do this because of how often we see Gohan SURPASS his limits. Saichoru made him attain his limit by revealing his potential. I think when Recoom kicked his ass, the zenkai did what zenkais do, and then also altered what his limit would be, making it possible for him to train later on as a method of gaining strength. I think the same happened, therefore, when Freeza hurt him.

Krillin had his potential brought out bu Saichoru too, and later got stronger through training. As a result, I think that proves it is possible to just keep training forever. What we don't see is how surpassing your limit affects you. Maybe he gained strength more slowly or more quickly then before, we don't know.

Nameks: no clue. Fusion seems to help a lot though.

[ItsAllGood]

Well, I would think that if it is possible to reach Full Powered Super Saiyan, you would naturally assume that this would also apply for all other levels, ie- SSJ2 and 3. But, I believe that in their base form, most of the fighters could continue to become stronger and stronger, whether they increase their limit using near-death powerup or something similar. For instance, End-of-Buu base level Goku could probably take down Cell quite easily.

In any case, perhaps the base level really IS unlimited, and that transformations just add power and speed etc, to the base form. Bear in mind that in most aspects you can only build on a strong base, so theoretically Goku and co. could just continue to train at their base form after maxing out SSJ1, 2 and even 3. (Shit, that would be awesome..)

It is interesting to note that "Mystic" Gohan was shown as being a maxed out BASE level, not a SSJ3 or other levels. He was more powerful than SSJ3 in his base form, with no reason or need to transform, whether it was possible or not.

I brought up a similar subject for my very first post on this board, concerning Broli. I argued that Broli was not in fact a LSSJ, but in reality, an USSJ2 who had spent considerable time in this form and overcome the weakness associated with this form, ie- speed. I would assume that over time, he maxed it out in his own way, ie- keeping his speed while increasing his strength. Unfortunately, we know that LSSJ is a level, so it was left at that.

I agree with Dayspring regarding Vegeta's limit, which is also proven during the Buu saga anime, where Vegeta and Trunks are training. Vegeta is shown training in his SSJ form, ie- he may be attempting to max out SSJ, but was their any proof that his base level had been maxed out at that point?

Sorry for the thesis!