Do you consider Saiyan Saga and Namek Vegeta a villain?

[ThePrinceOfSaiyans]

I was having a conversation with a friend just now, and he seems to think Vegeta was really evil and a villain...

But in my opinion, Vegeta wasn't really a villain or that evil (if at all)... Now he is a "Villain" in the aspect that he was an enemy in a saga, but apart from this... I don't view him as that evil...

I think most of Vegeta's ways come from Freeza bringing him up as a child.

As seen in the namek Saga where Vegeta dies, you see him cry and open up to Goku about what happened as a child, he explains that Freeza has made him how he is, and how he only obeyed so he wouldn't kill his Father but then he killed his Father anyway.

I believe that Vegeta did things he didn't want to because his Father was at risk, and he didn't want his Father to be hurt and then after his Father was killed, he was raised by Freeza and went on obeying him waiting to one day overthrow him.

Vegeta is known to be a tactician and also smart, but I feel he didn't have any need to lie when he was dying on namek and opened up about how he felt and what happened... He was dying, wasn't going to live much longer and probably in his mind thought that he wouldn't be worthy of a wish if they did get the dragon balls. (Lucky for him the wish brought back everyone who Freeza had killed)

So yeah, that is what I think at least, I feel Vegeta was made the way he was by Freeza, the only other aspects I can see of Vegeta apart from his bad deeds are his pride, lack of caring, and his insane lust for power, these things I pin down to him being alone for so long and depending on him self, and he wants to be the strongest and best because of his Father's words I believe. As a child he was told by King Vegeta that one day all this will be his (Looking out the window) and periodically through out the anime you will see Vegeta make quotes on how he should be the best and about his saiyan heritage (All told to him by his Father) and lastly, you see him have nightmares about SSJ Goku and Trunks, and his Father is in the dream also, which is when you see him struggling in his sleep (Bulma sitting beside him)

So yeah, that sums up my opinion on the topic... I don't really think Vegeta was evil... I feel he was just doing what he was told to save his Father, then after his Father was gone, all he was left with was obeying Frieza until he could one day destroy him, the rest of his wants and needs, was power and being what his Father told him to be I think. I feel he felt ashamed of himself when he couldn't surpass Goku and that he was letting his Father down.

So what do you guys think, is Vegeta evil and/or a true villain??

[IIMaxII]

No.

[Saiga]

Isn't that entirely added by the dub?

[ThePrinceOfSaiyans]

Isn't that entirely added by the dub?

Quite possibly, I have not read the manga, so certain parts could be anime only, and I've only watched 2 dubs to be fair, although without knowing which part you meant, kinda hard to say.

[Fionordequester]

The dub made a mistake by adding in that part about how Frieza made Vegeta how he was, just because, even if it's true, it's REALLY not in Vegeta's character to actually SAY that. That said though, I do believe Vegeta, while possessing some sociopathic tendencies even without Frieza's help (as seen in the Bardock movie), was made much more evil than he otherwise would have been had he grown up with, say, Grandpa Gohan instead of Frieza or King Vegeta (who was also evil, as seen in Movie 7).

[Saiga]

Isn't that entirely added by the dub?

Quite possibly, I have not read the manga, so certain parts could be anime only, and I've only watched 2 dubs to be fair, although without knowing which part you meant, kinda hard to say.

I was referring to Freeza making Vegeta what he is. That speech was only in the dub.

[FoolsGil]

Sympathy for the Devil, eh?

I was having a conversation with a friend just now, and he seems to think Vegeta was really evil and a villain...

But in my opinion, Vegeta wasn't really a villain or that evil (if at all)... Now he is a "Villain" in the aspect that he was an enemy in a saga, but apart from this... I don't view him as that evil...

I think most of Vegeta's ways come from Freeza bringing him up as a child.

The Saiyans were always a brutal, warrior race. If Freeza wasn't around, perhaps Vegeta may have been willing to care about his Saiyan comrades, instead of drag their names in the dirt like he did Raditz and Goku daily, or even casually kill Nappa like he did, but he still would have been a sadist, a murderer even, just like the rest of his race. and there is no doubt he or any Saiyan would not have taken Freeza's spot at the PTO if they had the chance. Saiyans, Vegeta and particular is on one side of a coin, and Freeza is on the other side.

As seen in the namek Saga where Vegeta dies, you see him cry and open up to Goku about what happened as a child, he explains that Freeza has made him how he is, and how he only obeyed so he wouldn't kill his Father but then he killed his Father anyway.

I believe that Vegeta did things he didn't want to because his Father was at risk, and he didn't want his Father to be hurt and then after his Father was killed, he was raised by Freeza and went on obeying him waiting to one day overthrow him.

Vegeta had nothing to lose so he gave a pity me speech to the only fool who would listen, but the reason he was at the least evil in the Namek saga? He chose to wipe out that Namekian Village, No Freeza holding a death beam to his head. and TFS Krillin is right, he probably didn't even need to kill them all, or even any of them.

Vegeta is known to be a tactician and also smart, but I feel he didn't have any need to lie when he was dying on namek and opened up about how he felt and what happened... He was dying, wasn't going to live much longer and probably in his mind thought that he wouldn't be worthy of a wish if they did get the dragon balls. (Lucky for him the wish brought back everyone who Freeza had killed)

So yeah, that is what I think at least, I feel Vegeta was made the way he was by Freeza, the only other aspects I can see of Vegeta apart from his bad deeds are his pride, lack of caring, and his insane lust for power, these things I pin down to him being alone for so long and depending on him self, and he wants to be the strongest and best because of his Father's words I believe. As a child he was told by King Vegeta that one day all this will be his (Looking out the window) and periodically through out the anime you will see Vegeta make quotes on how he should be the best and about his saiyan heritage (All told to him by his Father) and lastly, you see him have nightmares about SSJ Goku and Trunks, and his Father is in the dream also, which is when you see him struggling in his sleep (Bulma sitting beside him)

So yeah, that sums up my opinion on the topic... I don't really think Vegeta was evil... I feel he was just doing what he was told to save his Father, then after his Father was gone, all he was left with was obeying Freeza until he could one day destroy him, the rest of his wants and needs, was power and being what his Father told him to be I think. I feel he felt ashamed of himself when he couldn't surpass Goku and that he was letting his Father down.

So what do you guys think, is Vegeta evil and/or a true villain??

I just realized your name tag and your avatar. What have I just wrought by replying?

[RandomGuy96]

Err, having a tragic backstory (and Vegeta just barley does) doesn't mean you're not a villain. Vegeta murdered children seemingly just for kicks, tried to blow up the Earth, ruthlessly killed his own loyal henchmen, and ordered the killings of all of Goku's friends, all with a smug smile on his face. He also murdered billions while under Freeza's employ. He was by far the most evil individual seen at that point in the series. Even more evil than King Piccolo, who was literally made of evil. And no, he wouldn't have been much different without Freeza. Freeza didn't conquer and assimilate the saiyans, they joined willingly, and had already been brutal genocidal pricks for years before Freeza found them.

The "I only obeyed so they wouldn't kill my father" stuff is dub only. Vegeta doesn't seem to care at all about his father; he trash talks him after his death and, in the anime, shocks both Nappa and Raditz with the sheer callousness he shows when he reveals that he knew what happened to Vegeta (the planet) but didn't care.

In general, Vegeta is one evil SOB. Even in the Buu Saga, where he supposedly softened up, he was perfectly willing to almost literally sell his soul to the devil and screw over the universe just to get a little stronger.

I was referring to Freeza making Vegeta what he is. That speech was only in the dub.

The speech itself is, but one can argue that the same applies to the original, given that he really did have no free will while Freeza was around. But that argument can then be shot down by pointing out that the saiyans were bad on their own, and Vegeta was a brutal, short tempered, genocidal psychopath even when he wasn't under Freeza's control.

Goku: I get it now. If Freeza hadn't been there, you wouldn't be-

Vegeta: Dying? Yeah, I know.

Goku:...I was gonna say "evil".

Vegeta: Oh no, I'd definitely still be evil. In fact, if the situation was reversed, this conversation would never have happened. You'd be dead, and I'd be laughing. Hahaha- ah, it hurts to laugh.

[TheGmGoken]

Isn't that entirely added by the dub?

Quite possibly, I have not read the manga, so certain parts could be anime only, and I've only watched 2 dubs to be fair, although without knowing which part you meant, kinda hard to say.

As seen in the namek Saga where Vegeta dies, you see him cry and open up to Goku about what happened as a child, he explains that Freeza has made him how he is, and how he only obeyed so he wouldn't kill his Father but then he killed his Father anyway.

I believe that Vegeta did things he didn't want to because his Father was at risk, and he didn't want his Father to be hurt and then after his Father was killed, he was raised by Freeza and went on obeying him waiting to one day overthrow him.

That's an ENGLISH Zdub only line.
Here's Eng Kai Version - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yDSfn59ollU
Here's JPN Kai Version - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EpPmVwDokNw

As you see Vegeta wasn't evil cause of Freeza. Saiyans were Evil(well besides the random 6 conveniently good Saiyans) naturally. Vegeta cried cause of how his race was treated and beg Goku to kill Freeza for the Saiyans. Not because Freeza "Made Vegeta to what he told him so Vegeta's daddy would't die but he killed Vegeta's daddy anyways ". Now onto the main topic. In the Saiyan Arc he was a villain. In Namek Arc Vegeta was an villain who teamed up with the heroes for a bigger villain. A common threat if you will. So I'll say he's more of a person who's not bad or good. Just feels like doing whatever the hell he feels like doing.

[Saiga]

The speech itself is, but one can argue that the same applies to the original, given that he really did have no free will while Freeza was around. But that argument can then be shot down by pointing out that the saiyans were bad on their own, and Vegeta was a brutal, short tempered, genocidal psychopath even when he wasn't under Freeza's control.

Goku: I get it now. If Freeza hadn't been there, you wouldn't be-

Vegeta: Dying? Yeah, I know.

Goku:...I was gonna say "evil".

Vegeta: Oh no, I'd definitely still be evil. In fact, if the situation was reversed, this conversation would never have happened. You'd be dead, and I'd be laughing. Hahaha- ah, it hurts to laugh.

Heh, I was considering posting the clip to that, but couldn't find the video on its own.

[RandomGuy96]

Vegeta cried cause of how his race was treated and beg Goku to kill Freeza for the Saiyans.

Then I guess Goku gave Vegeta a nice "screw you" when he spared Freeza. Or at least tried to. Well, there was one good thing about that decision.

[Fionordequester]

Well, arguing "Saiyans are still evil" isn't an effective argument because King Vegeta wasn't exactly a good role model either. The question is, suppose someone really good raised Vegeta, like Grandpa Gohan, the Ox King, or Namu or any of those other guys?

[TheGmGoken]

Well, arguing "Saiyans are still evil" isn't an effective argument because King Vegeta wasn't exactly a good role model either. The question is, suppose someone really good raised Vegeta, like Grandpa Gohan or Namu or any of those other guys?

Well as long as Vegeta doesn't hit his head then he should still be evil or AT LEAST both(At times bad and at times good depends). He would basiaclly be Majin Vegeta without the "I DID THIS TO KILL KAKAROT!". He'll be evil but still KINDA good. Don't know if that make sense.

[Fionordequester]

Well, arguing "Saiyans are still evil" isn't an effective argument because King Vegeta wasn't exactly a good role model either. The question is, suppose someone really good raised Vegeta, like Grandpa Gohan or Namu or any of those other guys?

Well as long as Vegeta doesn't hit his head then he should still be evil or AT LEAST both(At times bad and at times good depends). He would basiaclly be Majin Vegeta without the "I DID THIS TO KILL KAKAROT!". He'll be evil but still KINDA good. Don't know if that make sense.

Well, this is also assuming that he didn't get his head sent through a brain washer like Goku did (hence why Goku needed a good hit to the head to cure him).

[ABED]

Vegeta is most definitely a villain in those arcs, especially the Saiyan arc. On Namek he only begins to change, but he's still a villain.

[Gaffer Tape]

That Vegeta still killed innocent people on his own without Freeza's influence is an awesome point.

As for what would have happened had Vegeta had a better role model, yeah, that could have seriously affected how he turned out. However, while I do believe strongly in the power of nurture over nature, there does come a point (usually around adulthood) where an individual can no longer blame anyone for the way he/she acts. When that person becomes mature enough to take responsibility for his/her own actions. And Vegeta is well past that point.

As far as the "Daddy hostage" dub line, I actually just thought of something. Even disregarding it was something FUNimation sloppily wrote back in 1999, and that it's totally out of character for Vegeta to say, it really doesn't make any sense as an excuse. Freeza killed Vegeta's dad when Vegeta was, like, what, 5? So, um... yeah, how does that work? Usually, in a hostage situation, you kinda have to keep the hostage alive. Dub Freeza didn't even have that bargaining chip over Dub Vegeta for most of his childhood, so how in the world would that have "made him who he is"?

[Blade]

I consider Vegeta to be a villain up until the Cell games. His alliance with the Z Warriors on Namek was due to a mutual enemy, but his interests were entirely self-serving. Even against the Androids and Cell he had no real desire to save the Earth from destruction, but instead to pit himself against great challenges and surpass Goku.

Whether 'selfish' and 'evil' can be interchanged in regard to Vegeta is debatable, but I'd argue that anyone who's selfish desires manifest themselves into multiple acts of cold-blooded murder has to be considered evil.

I don't think it's until Trunks is killed by Cell that Vegeta acts in battle for any reason other than himself.

[Hearts]

I consider him a semi-villain at namek saga, I consider him pure evil until after Cell Games. By pure evil i mean if lets say #18 had dared him to kill Krillin, he would have done it in a heartbeat

[TheGmGoken]

Well, arguing "Saiyans are still evil" isn't an effective argument because King Vegeta wasn't exactly a good role model either. The question is, suppose someone really good raised Vegeta, like Grandpa Gohan or Namu or any of those other guys?

Well as long as Vegeta doesn't hit his head then he should still be evil or AT LEAST both(At times bad and at times good depends). He would basiaclly be Majin Vegeta without the "I DID THIS TO KILL KAKAROT!". He'll be evil but still KINDA good. Don't know if that make sense.

Well, this is also assuming that he didn't get his head sent through a brain washer like Goku did (hence why Goku needed a good hit to the head to cure him).

Goku went through a brain washer? They sent him to Earth with a mission. Hardly a brain washer. More or less being naturally strong and destructive

[hleV]

A villain? Well yes, he still kept to his original plan of gaining immortality and continuing being an evil asshole like he was.