Significant or Negligible? (#18 & ki)

Adamas de Diama · Post by **Adamas de Diama** » Tue Mar 02, 2004 11:32 pm

NOTE: This was originally an e-mail sent to VegettoEX, and I'm posting it here upon his suggestion.

Okay. A little while ago, I was in a debate with some folks about a particular scene in the Buu saga where Jinzouningen Juuhachigou donated energy to Goku's Chou Genki Dama. Well, I quickly dismissed it as a mistake, but they insisted that if Toriyama "took the time" to draw it into the manga that it must be the truth. Their rebutal to my dismissal was that at that, point in the manga, Toriyama did not really make many mistakes and everything just about flowed consistently. Because of this incident, these folks have generated a 'life energy theory', which is essentially that there is another power-base other than ki that can even surpass ki in potential.

As far as I am concerned, I have a hard time believing that there could be any other power-base but ki in the Dragon Ball universe. It would not make sense to introduce this at the very end of the long-winded saga. But they also believe that this life-energy is demonstrated by the Mafuba and Kikoho techniques (which I *highly* disagree with), due to their kamikaze properties.

So, I must ask, what exactly is your opinion upon this Juuhachigou/life-energy issue? I really am interested to see if my knowledge of the Dragon World has diminished so much over the course of two or three years, or if I am thinking logically.

Zackarotto · Post by **Zackarotto** » Tue Mar 02, 2004 11:40 pm

Wait, they didn't have ki to sense, right? Is that what you're going at, the fact that they don't have ki, yet she donated hers?

She would have to have some sort of energy, and if it's not ki, I have no idea. It might just be a mistake, considering how if it wasn't ki it shouldn't be acceptable by the Genki Dama. Or does the Genki Dama convert other types of energy into ki for the attack?

I guess that idea is impossible... it would at least show Goku stealing from a power plant in one of the uses. Maybe Toriyama just wasn't thinking straight, and that's just a so-so idea that could fill his plot holes invented later on. If that's the case, it wouldn't be shown but could still be an official response.

Hope I've helped.

Jerseymilk · Post by **Jerseymilk** » Tue Mar 02, 2004 11:43 pm

I think, it's another inconsistency. The real reason I think that Toriyama took the time to draw in #18 also lifting up her hand was to show how much she had changed and come to respect Goku. Toriyama was great at character development and used subtle things such as this to tell us more about a person. Toriyama wasn't great consistency, and he made a lot of plotholes with DBZ. So, that's my opinion anyway. I'm not going to lose sleep over trying to reason it out as anything else.

James R. Cadwell · Post by **James R. Cadwell** » Tue Mar 02, 2004 11:51 pm

Adamas de Diama wrote:NOTE: This was originally an e-mail sent to VegettoEX, and I'm posting it here upon his suggestion.

Okay. A little while ago, I was in a debate with some folks about a particular scene in the Buu saga where Jinzouningen Juuhachigou donated energy to Goku's Chou Genki Dama. Well, I quickly dismissed it as a mistake, but they insisted that if Toriyama "took the time" to draw it into the manga that it must be the truth. Their rebutal to my dismissal was that at that, point in the manga, Toriyama did not really make many mistakes and everything just about flowed consistently. Because of this incident, these folks have generated a 'life energy theory', which is essentially that there is another power-base other than ki that can even surpass ki in potential.

As far as I am concerned, I have a hard time believing that there could be any other power-base but ki in the Dragon Ball universe. It would not make sense to introduce this at the very end of the long-winded saga. But they also believe that this life-energy is demonstrated by the Mafuba and Kikoho techniques (which I *highly* disagree with), due to their kamikaze properties.

So, I must ask, what exactly is your opinion upon this Juuhachigou/life-energy issue? I really am interested to see if my knowledge of the Dragon World has diminished so much over the course of two or three years, or if I am thinking logically.

Aren't "artificial humans" 17 and 18 just cybernetically-enhanced living beings? If that's the case, then 18 was probably simply contributing whatever meager amount of "ki" every normal human possesses. Her real power would come from the enhancements she received from Dr. Gero.

Zackarotto · Post by **Zackarotto** » Tue Mar 02, 2004 11:53 pm

There's a good point. Maybe not being able to sense their ki was just because they were too average to pick out, then?

James R. Cadwell · Post by **James R. Cadwell** » Tue Mar 02, 2004 11:57 pm

Zackarotto wrote:There's a good point. Maybe not being able to sense their ki was just because they were too average to pick out, then?

That was exactly my thought. I'm fairly certain that characters have had difficulty pinpointing the "ki" of ordinary humans before. Besides, Goku and the rest of the gang would have been searching for large, impressive "ki" when they tried to sense the "artificial humans" -- not the type of insignificant "ki" a normal person would have.

Jerseymilk · Post by **Jerseymilk** » Tue Mar 02, 2004 11:58 pm

Yes that's true! Didn't Goku have a hard time trying to pick up Buruma during the Buu saga when he wanted to stop her from wishing with the Dragonballs?

PsyLiam · Post by **PsyLiam** » Wed Mar 03, 2004 12:36 am

Yes, but it only delayed him by a minute or two.

Of course, you could argue that Goku was familiar with Bulma's ki, which was why he was able to eventually locate it. The rest of the gang weren't familiar with the androids/artificial humans ki's. Although even after they'd met them (and Cell), they couldn't locate them.

Jerseymilk · Post by **Jerseymilk** » Wed Mar 03, 2004 12:43 am

Yes, but they didn't know them very well. Goku had known Buruma for many years at that point. Another problem though is that it's stated again that Piccolo and the others can't find the Artificial Humans because they can't feel their "ki", so that is why they opt to try and find Cell instead. How do we explain that part?

Jerseymilk · Post by **Jerseymilk** » Wed Mar 03, 2004 12:43 am

Ignore this! My message got posted twice!

James R. Cadwell · Post by **James R. Cadwell** » Wed Mar 03, 2004 12:44 am

PsyLiam wrote:Yes, but it only delayed him by a minute or two.

Of course, you could argue that Goku was familiar with Bulma's ki, which was why he was able to eventually locate it. The rest of the gang weren't familiar with the androids/artificial humans ki's. Although even after they'd met them (and Cell), they couldn't locate them.

I assumed that the "artificial humans" might have such a weak "ki signature" that it blends in with the background "ambient" ki that we've seen Goku absorb from the environment for the "Genki Dama".

Jerseymilk · Post by **Jerseymilk** » Wed Mar 03, 2004 12:44 am

That would make sense.

Post by **TripleRach** » Wed Mar 03, 2004 1:01 am

I've always thought that their ki was completely hidden, or even nonexistent, because of their cybernetic enhancements they received, being that it defies nature and stuff.

James R. Cadwell · Post by **James R. Cadwell** » Wed Mar 03, 2004 1:08 am

TripleRach wrote:I've always thought that their ki was completely hidden, or even nonexistent, because of their cybernetic enhancements they received, being that it defies nature and stuff.

18 must have some "ki", because she can reproduce.

Kodoshin · Post by **Kodoshin** » Wed Mar 03, 2004 1:22 am

I had always been under the impression that they had a muffled ki signature as a defensive mechanism. Since the Dragon Warriors were so good at following an opponents moves as a result of thier ability to follow and understand an opponents ki.

James R. Cadwell · Post by **James R. Cadwell** » Wed Mar 03, 2004 1:26 am

Kodoshin wrote:I had always been under the impression that they had a muffled ki signature as a defensive mechanism. Since the Dragon Warriors were so good at following an opponents moves as a result of thier ability to follow and understand an opponents ki.

That's a good theory. If it was possible and practical, I'm sure that Dr. Gero would have implemented it.

The S · Post by **The S** » Wed Mar 03, 2004 11:50 am

Hmmm... I never really thought of it.. it seems to all make sense, though. I always thought that hey, she's part human, so she's got SOME ki, right?

Jerseymilk · Post by **Jerseymilk** » Wed Mar 03, 2004 12:08 pm

I just thought of something. That same scene definitely proves that No.8 is a cyborg because along with Snow, he also raises his hand to give some "ki".

Zackarotto · Post by **Zackarotto** » Wed Mar 03, 2004 3:21 pm

The whole ki system is warped to me, anyway.

We're sure that 8-chan was created from scratch, aren't we? So it's either a plot hole that Toriyama doesn't care to explain or fix, or you can somehow give ki to a machine.

How can your ki go up when you take off your boots?! It defies logic! Or, wait. Perhaps the scouting system has the same mesurements, but it's just thrown off when people are slowed down by weights, or something. I just figured out my question.

Whee hee hee! Look at Rock Lee take off those weights! Hahaha!

James R. Cadwell · Post by **James R. Cadwell** » Wed Mar 03, 2004 3:26 pm

Zackarotto wrote:The whole ki system is warped to me, anyway.

We're sure that 8-chan was created from scratch, aren't we? So it's either a plot hole that Toriyama doesn't care to explain or fix, or you can somehow give ki to a machine.

Wasn't it established that machines can absorb "ki" when "artificial human" #19 drained Goku's energy?

Kanzenshuu

Significant or Negligible? (#18 & ki)

Significant or Negligible? (#18 & ki)

Re: Significant or Negligible?